Bush cracks down on Cuba.... as usual

flogen

So Mr. Bush has devised some more bits and bobs to help "speed up the fall of communism on the island" (i cant believe they can be so blatent about it) such as travel restrictions and an increase in the Cuban Immigrant Allowance.
so what do you all think of this? Is he right to do this? Do you think Cuba is the terror hub he claims it is? Do you hate or respect mr. Castro? Is there a hope for Communism in Cuba when he dies, even though Raul is set to take his place?

I personally think America sould get off its high horse and stop being so bloody rediculous, if its so dangerous, and if giving Cubans money is as good as giving guns to terrorists as he claims, then why do the Americans anually send a check to the Cuban gov. for use of Guantanamo Bay? If America can willingly destroy the regimes of Iraq and Afghanistan, they why dont they go for the 'terrorists' in Cuba? at least then they wouldnt have to use Shannon.
I hope that Cuba stays as it is when Castro dies, but I do fear that Raul wont be as true as Fidel, perhaps be easily swayed by American Dollars, or maybe his death would let the Americans slip in before Raul even had a chance.
And where is the proof that Cuba is a terrorist hub? I mean, its a pretty poor country, which can often be a breeding ground for such activities, but what group would be stupid enough to set up camp right beside America? America is itching for the chance to go in, so is always watching. And Castro is more inteligent than to support anti-american terrorists, he knows any slip ups and he will be attacked

I have alot of respect for a country that can survice decades of US oppression and aggression, embarress the US army (bay of Pigs) and show that in the right conditions Communism can work, sadly the blockades mean that the equal level communism has created there is quite low.

Flogen

Sparks

Originally posted by flogen
So Mr. Bush has devised some more bits and bobs to help "speed up the fall of communism on the island" (i cant believe they can be so blatent about it) such as travel restrictions and an increase in the Cuban Immigrant Allowance.
so what do you all think of this?

As someone else on the net said, Cuba is a repressive regieme because Castro won't let you leave Cuba to go to America, whereas America is a democracy because Bush won't let you leave Americal to go to Cuba...

latinsoul

So Flogen:

Who are you after all? Where do you live? How your live has been overall?

To me you are a f...ing idiot who started a thread without even think what you are taking. I am a cuban national, who happened to read your misleading comments. Well KEEP YOUR STUPIDITY TO YOURSELF!!!

"I hope that Cuba stays as it is when Castro dies"--you said

How do you like Cuba to stay, you moron? In total decadence? With the most horrendous economical and spiritual crisis any country can endure? I bet you have been there as a tourist, haven't you? Well I bet you liked it!.

"I have alot of respect for a country that can survice decades of US oppression and aggression" --you said

My people has survived the opression and agression of one dictator, one evil man that has completely ruined the cuban society. You just can't even understand it because you haven't suffered anything. You don't have any real information.

And as a side note: Country is an abstract word. Use PEOPLE instead. Our PEOPLE have suffered only the spiritual and economical blockade imposed by one malevolous person who has been wrecking the country for over 40 years.

"and show that in the right conditions Communism can work"

Communism can't work ANYWHERE because its totally contrary to the human nature. You don't have any incentive for work or for nothing, not financial or moral... It simply can't work!

I can see under your name you are a crazy poster. I think you maybe a pretty crazy guy to say such things..

Hobbes

The current Cuban communist regime is the product of the US government from a US president who would prefer to play golf then actually listen to the plight of the people on the island.

Prior to that it was used by the Mafia, and controlled by powerful American national land owners who screwed the country which helped put Castro into power by thier actions. (and later on used US law to steal planes+boats from Cuba that landed in the US).

The US embargo has also turned Cuba into a third world country, and lets not forget all the abuses by the US on the country which are documented. Like.. infecting crops/people/livestock, attempted assinations, bombing runs and torching of crops, sinking of ships, poisoning a sugar shipment from cuba, helping what the US would now call terrorists (by thier defination).

Or prehaps the US attacks on British companies in British territory who wouldn't play ball with them? (with the help of the British government).

And while he goes on about an embargo, Havana cigars can be bought in the US easily.. heck Arnie himself smokes them.

Say what you will about Castro, but Bush is hardly in a position to make comments about Cuba.

When Castro eventually does leave, you can see all those land owners lining up to try and take back thier land on Cuba which wasn't theres to begin with.

Oh and least we forget the plan by the CIA to create fake terror attacks on the US and blame cuba (Operation Northwoods) so they could invade with public support.

dathi1

My people has survived the opression and agression of one dictator, one evil man that has completely ruined the cuban society. You just can't even understand it because you haven't suffered anything. You don't have any real information.

I'm no fan of the Cuban system....but if you were to ask me to live as a citizen lets say of democratic Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama etc.. picking bananas for Chiquita or Coffee for starbucks with no health care or education for myself my kids or my neighbour...I'd pick the brutal dictator any day of the week>

also....just because youre Cuban does that give you the right to castigate people in the manner above.. cop on.

You just can't even understand it because you haven't suffered anything.

Don't play pity me violins on this board...this is Ireland remember....we know about oppression.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by dathi1
Don't play pity me violins on this board...this is Ireland remember....we know about oppression.

Hmmm. It's not the impression one would get from reading these boards.

bonkey

Originally posted by latinsoul
So Flogen:

<snip>

One week ban for personal abuse. Read the forum rules before posting there again.


jc

Meh

Originally posted by dathi1
I'm no fan of the Cuban system....but if you were to ask me to live as a citizen lets say of democratic Nicaragua, Costa Rica, Panama etc.. picking bananas for Chiquita or Coffee for starbucks with no health care or education for myself my kids or my neighbour...I'd pick the brutal dictator any day of the week>

Which is why we see all those Nicaraguans risking their lives in home-made rafts trying to sneak their way into Cuba. Oh wait, it's the other way round -- it's the Cubans who are trying to escape from their "socialist paradise".

flogen

as hobbes said, Cuba was run by the mob before Castro and guevara came along. The fact is it was an island packed with casinos and latino prostitutes, all there for the fun of the american buisness man, and if Bush or many like him have their way thats how it will be again.
its hard for me or anyone to know the full truth of Cuba, as anything you hear about it is unreliable, so perhaps it is as bad as you say, but i have reletives who moved there and say it is a beautiful country, and full of beautiful people. If Castro really was as brutal as you tell us, America would have used that as a reason to attack long ago.

Its american opression that has damaged the soul and economy of Cuba, not Castro

perhaps you were unwilling to live in a third world country, and thats understandable, but no-one could possibly help Cuba with the restrictions its under at the moment.

Flogen

Meh

Originally posted by flogen
its hard for me or anyone to know the full truth of Cuba, as anything you hear about it is unreliable, so perhaps it is as bad as you say, but i have reletives who moved there and say it is a beautiful country, and full of beautiful people.

Why don't we ask the Cubans themselves? They're the ones who are voting with their feet (and boats, and rafts). Or if you don't trust Cuban emigrés, ask Amnesty International.

Its american opression that has damaged the soul and economy of Cuba, not Castro

perhaps you were unwilling to live in a third world country, and thats understandable, but no-one could possibly help Cuba with the restrictions its under at the moment.

Really? There's another small island just off the coast of a major power that's imposed an economic embargo on it for the past fifty years, but the Taiwanese seem to be doing just fine. Seems like Castro can't blame US sanctions for everything.

Hobbes

Originally posted by Meh
Really? There's another small island just off the coast of a major power that's imposed an economic embargo on it for the past fifty years, but the Taiwanese seem to be doing just fine. Seems like Castro can't blame US sanctions for everything.

But then Taiwan gets a large amount of funding and business from the US (military aid) and has thier backing in the event China invades. Cuba used to have that too with Russia until Russia ceased to exist. Anyway how many stories do you have of china sinking ships going to Taiwan?

Funny you link to AI. Read it I take it?

The four-decades-old embargo against Cuba by the USA continued to contribute to a climate in which fundamental rights were denied.

Check out other countries too, prehaps bush should look at the illegal detaining of people without rights in his own country before going after another one.

... Had a rummage around for refugee outflow for Cuba. It's set at 1.78 per 1000 (per capita). A bit high but not huge.

shotamoose

Good to see that Bush is to start cracking down on authoritarian regimes with everything he's got. No doubt he'll be imposing sanctions on China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and all those other dictatorships around the world any second now.

Oh wait, I forgot something. He won't do that because he's a lying, hypocritical opportunist thug who'll put the welfare of one corporation that pays to keep his worthless political career going than any number of millions of ordinary people around the world who don't.

He's doing this to win Florida at the next election, nothing more, nothing less. He doesn't give a damn about Cubans.

mr_angry

One week ban for personal abuse. Read the forum rules before posting there again.

That's a bit harsh, isn't it Bonkey? The guy was a noob, and obviously felt very strongly about the topic. Unless there was some communication in the background that we don't know about.

Originally posted by shotamoose
Good to see that Bush is to start cracking down on authoritarian regimes with everything he's got. No doubt he'll be imposing sanctions on China, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and all those other dictatorships around the world any second now.

Oh wait, I forgot something. He won't do that because he's a lying, hypocritical opportunist thug who'll put the welfare of one corporation that pays to keep his worthless political career going than any number of millions of ordinary people around the world who don't.

He's doing this to win Florida at the next election, nothing more, nothing less. He doesn't give a damn about Cubans.

I agree wholeheardtedly. If you think that Bush is going to be Cuba's saviour, then I feel you are very sadly misguided. As far as I can tell, Cuba is no threat to America whatsoever, and this stinks of self-interest. Hopefully it'll fail as miserably as all the previous attempts by America to 'liberate' Cuba - the Cuban people are liked a hell of a lot more than Saddam.

[UNEDUCATED PERSONAL OPINION] Let's face it, as dictatorships go, Castro's Cuba hasn't been one of the worst. Good (underfunded) healthcare system, if I'm not mistaken.[/UNEDUCATED PERSONAL OPINION]

Originally posted by Hobbes

... Had a rummage around for refugee outflow for Cuba. It's set at 1.78 per 1000 (per capita). A bit high but not huge.

Out of curiousity hobbes, what is that figure based upon??
I'd have thought from anecdotal evidence, that the figures annually fleeing to florida would at least be in the thousands.
Mind you whilst it has an agenda, the articles on this site make me care little about anyones dislike of Cuba, it's not a nice place

Hobbes

Originally posted by Man
Out of curiousity hobbes, what is that figure based upon??

That figure was taken from Cuba Stats from nationmaster (under the people heading). On the page you will find they quote all thier sources of information.

You can tell a good site that actually gives you areas to research yourself.

In this instance the information came from..
UNHCR (United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees). 2002. Correspondence on refugees and internally displaced persons. February. Geneva.

I'd have thought from anecdotal evidence, that the figures annually fleeing to florida would at least be in the thousands.

That was a per captia total. The actual total per annum is "20,000". Cuba ranks 27th of out 78th countries ranked with refugee outflow.

Mind you whilst it has an agenda, the articles on this site make me care little about anyones dislike of Cuba, it's not a nice place [/B]

I love the site, however you couldn't of picked a better one? One that actually quotes viable sources? I will have a look at it some more, but take for example "Castro Weaponizes West Nile Virus". The story is total bull****. I cannot find any references apart from that page in relation to claiming that Castro was causing west nile virus or delivering letters of Anthrax to the US.

I would wonder who actually runs that site?

How about this for a link?. It at least quotes sources of where you can research the information (although I had heard some of this from other areas already).

Or prehaps read up on Operation mongoose. the actual declassified documents are there (and more about operation northwoods).

.. Actually cross reference a lot. Some of it is pretty intresting and I didn't even know about.

Take "Orlando Bosch" for example. Blew up a cuban airplane killing 73 people (one of many of his bombings). The CIA knew in advance he planned to do it. The US now gives this guy refuge and strangely enough Bushes daddy pardoned him.

Meh

Originally posted by Hobbes
That was a per captia total. The actual total per annum is "20,000". Cuba ranks 27th of out 78th countries ranked with refugee outflow.

Because the Cuban government arrests and imprisons people who try to leave. And the US government, to its shame, returns Cubans trying to flee Castro.

I love the site, however you couldn't of picked a better one? One that actually quotes viable sources?

Actually, the linked article is a direct copy of an Amnesty International press release. As far as human rights go, you'd have a hard job finding a more respected or impartial source than Amnesty.

Take "Orlando Bosch" for example. Blew up a cuban airplane killing 73 people (one of many of his bombings). The CIA knew in advance he planned to do it. The US now gives this guy refuge and strangely enough Bushes daddy pardoned him.

I don't see how that excuses Castro's misdeeds. I learned in junior infants that two wrongs don't make a right, but I guess you must have been out sick that day...

Hobbes

Originally posted by Meh
Because the Cuban government arrests and imprisons people who try to leave. And the US government, to its shame, returns Cubans trying to flee Castro.

As far as I remember, if a Cuban touches US land they are automatically given the right to stay in the US.

Not everyone leaving Cuba is fleeing Castro. Like most refugees they are looking for a better life. A better life may of been had if there wasn't an embargo on the country.

Actually, the linked article is a direct copy of an Amnesty International

As for your link, I was talking about the whole site in general. Just one news story doesn't make a site and I had already read that from AI.

I don't see how that excuses Castro's misdeeds.

It certainly doesn't, however the US is as much to blame for helping to keep the situation the way it is or making the situation worse.

I was also pointing out that Bush is a galaxy away from claiming that Cuba should stop it's "Axis of evil" when Bush and his cronies have been pulling worse **** for years on Cuba.

dathi1

Which is why we see all those Nicaraguans risking their lives in home-made rafts trying to sneak their way into Cuba. Oh wait, it's the other way round -- it's the Cubans who are trying to escape from their "socialist paradise".

the grass is always greener...................

Hobbes

Actually Cuba does in fact get refugees coming into the country. (1000 a year)

.. I don't know if you are reading the links but you would see that the Cuban communist party before the US embargo not only was not that big a deal, but also hated Castro up to the point where he came into power (incidently the CIA funded Castro before this, while the US supplied weapons to Batista).