So who does have the WMD?

Hobbes

Checking through news, apprantly Israel have just added nuclear subs to thier stocks and also made a statement that they will nuke Iran if Irans nuclear plants come online. WTF? O_O

This is a country that built a fake control room to make the UN Nuclear Inspection teams not know they were building nukes.

If anything this is going to make the other countries more inclined to build nukes.

(note: You can find through google news and read the pages without subscriptions)

Goodshape

Damn you Hobbes for keeping me up (Operation Northwoods was particularly interesting)...

Do you have a link for this story?

sceptre

So who does have the WMD?

I do. I'm not of Arab origin and I've only a few litres of oil in my car so I'm betting the US won't do diddly about it.

RicardoSmith

I thought it was interesting how Iraq now gets paid for its oil in US dollars since the war. Something that they stopped doing a long while back.

Villain

North Korea are actively talking about beingable to make Nuclear weapons aren't they

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Typedef

I think if Israel and Iran go to war, that, Syria and perhaps Egypt (maybe even Saudi) would side against the Israelis.

If Nukes start getting lobbed around, the potential to draw the large military nations into a gruesome (perhaps Nuclear) fight, becomes, very, very forboding.

Nuclear weapons are proliferating, so, is the reality, that sooner or later, some conflict, somewhere, will turn into a one-sided (or god help us all), two sided nuclear conflict.

Hobbes

Originally posted by daveirl
Was that not that they and all the Arab nations got paid in dollars but that they were thinking of moving to Euros and that the US intervention was an attempt to keep the oil markets dollars?

Iraq was the first country in the East to switch thier oil exchanges to Euros (to intentionally piss off America). The others are seriously considering it, and Russia said they would welcome the change or something like that recently.

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/2003/10/10/001.html

President Vladimir Putin said Thursday Russia could switch its trade in oil from dollars to euros, a move that could have far-reaching repercussions for the global balance of power -- potentially hurting the U.S. dollar and economy and providing a massive boost to the euro zone.

But yea, strange they have gone back to dollars.

mr_angry

So who does have the WMD?

America does. In fact, they discovered, and continue to produce the most deadly toxins known to man. They have the biggest WMD arsenal, and they are the only country to ever have used an atomic weapon during the course of war.

I also find it hard to believe that all the Israeli nukes are Israeli-built. I'd say a considerable amount have been flogged (given?) to them by the Americans.

Of course, when Iran or North Korea attempt to build some, its wrong. That's because they're not American, kids. Non-Americans are always wrong. [/CYNICISM]

tricky D

Originally posted by mr_angry4
I also find it hard to believe that all the Israeli nukes are Israeli-built. I'd say a considerable amount have been flogged (given?) to them by the Americans.
[/CYNICISM]

While they might have received some support from the us, iirc south africa provided most of the materiel back in the good old days of sanctions

google israel "south africa" +nuclear for links

woosaysdan

i think that japan have wmd

mr_angry

The General Conference also accepts South Africa's declarations on the dismantlement and destruction of equipment for its nuclear weapons

The US acepting a nation's declaration of having no WMDs? Do my eyes deceive me???

tricky D

forgot about who uses them?

extract...
'These poison gas attacks were perpetrated just two years ago, by Israeli troops against civilians in the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Although they are documented by a small mountain of detailed and consistent open-source information, they remain a silent, ignored, seemingly untouchable story. At least eight separate attacks were reported from February 12 through March 30, 2001, first in the Gaza Strip and later in the West Bank. Several hundred civilians are reported to have suffered from exposure to the gas. Many required prolonged hospitalization.'

http://www.albalagh.net/current_affairs/kosher_weapons.shtml

DadaKopf

Well it's *obviously* either Columbia or Venezuela isn't it? I mean, they mightn't have any offensive weapons but the State Department is sure Chavez is in bed with Islamic terrorists and he's best mates with some Latin American paramilitaries. And then there's Columbia, with their FARC rebels who just recently captured a bunch of totally innocent and 'lost' US soldiers miles inside their battle lines. Of course, FARC mightn't have any mad powerful weapons but they're 'narcoterrorists' and their drug trafficking is a weapon of mass destruction in itself.

Yes, nuke Columbia and Venezuela before they nuke you.

Serious, though, as you probably guessed, all these accusations are bologny but the US is making moves to possibly lump them into the axis of evil. Whenever it's in the news, don't believe any of it.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Dadakopf
is sure Chavez is in bed with Islamic terrorists

I swear Tom Clancy is such an effective propaganda tool for the US State department - he brings out a new novel everytime the US government has difficult foreign policy decisions to sell to the public - his latest I believe concerns exactly the above.

As for who has WMD either all major regional powers should have them or none should (so Iran, North Korea, Australia, Greece, Turkey, South Africa, Kenya, Brazil, Argentina, Saudi Arabia and Vietnam should all be handed nuclear weapons to act as deterrent)....but giving all regional powers such weapons is ridiculous - we just know that at some point, someone would either hand over a weapon to a terrorist and bang goes Washington, New York, London, Moscow or Beijing or else would actually use them to systematically exterminate their sovereign-empowered enemies.

What I want to know is what the hell ever happened to Vienna?

If I was General Chavez given recent events vis á vis US interference in Venzuala, I'd be looking at some long range delivery system and as many Sarin, Bubonic Plague or VX tipped weapons as possible to forestall the recurrence of such events - the logic is that as long as we have superpowers willing to break international law and interfere in other nations (USA, Russia, China etc etc) then we will have under-powers willing to break international law to find a way to prevent this - it's all very a Hobbesian return to the anarchy of international relations which is not advantageous.

The fact is we cannot return to the European States System of the Balance of Power since in this day and age, casualties from such conflicts would come into millions. We cannot continue to use the Balance of Terror such as that inherent in Mutually Assured Destruction. There is no third way in the present system is there? A world government is out of the question because world powers are not willing to submit to international scrutiny - hell, we've seen what the US is like regarding the International Criminal Court never mind an over-ruling body of government. There is a fatal flaw within the idea of sovereignty and the right wing, with their nationalism and divisive policies cannot solve it. WMD is simply an expression of this approaching crisis.

mr_angry

WMD is simply an expression of this approaching crisis.

For once, I agree entirely with Eomer. The whole Global Terrorism vs. War On Terror scenario is just the outcome of years of bad example by those who say they uphold International law. We're either heading for a watershed, or an apocalypse.

Sure the "war on terrorism" is bad, but then again it will fizzle out soon enough.

You seem to be forgetting that these small wars have been happening since WW2, so why all of a sudden, would we be any nearer to apocalypse now? Sure more "rogue" nations have A bombs than before, but I highly doubt a country like NK would ever use them. 7 nukes lobbed at America, maybe 5/6 get through missile defences etc - makes no difference to 100 nukes, all infinitely more powerful than anything NK could come up with, all landing in a matter of minutes.

mr_angry

North Korea wont strike America - they'll strike Japan instead. Simple as that. It might seem like exaggeration now, but it will become more and more likely as other major countries continue to break International law. "Everybody else is doing it, so why can't we?" syndrome. The flouting of International law by America and Israel has become considerably more apparent in the last couple of years, wouldn't you say?

Remember also that North Korea is run by a tyrannical maniac who commands a fanatical army of devotees. It wont take a vote by 12 million people to launch a nuke - it'll take the whim of one crazed man.

I fail to see what they'd gain by attacking Japan, however.


Also, I'm sure if he held a vote to attack sumbody then he would win. Propoganda etc means that 99.9% of people in NK love their great leader. They even practice blackouts in the major city to prepare for any war that might come. Manipulation of the media has shown every citizen of NK that America is out to get them, and that is why many rural children are starving, as opposed to the truth which is largely due to the huge military spendature

mr_angry

I agree with your points. However, there is no love lost between the North Koreans and the Japanese, plus the Koreans see Japan as a symbol of western culture taking over in Asia.

The North Koreans have repeatedly tested ballistic missiles by firing them into the sea, not far off the coast of Japan.

If Kim Jong II hits that big red button, the Japanese wont have too many more energy shortages to worry about...

Hobbes

NK have actually successfully landed a missile within US coastal areas as a test fire. It made one or two news sites some time ago but was mostly dropped from major reporting at the time.

I can't remember if it was Bush or Clintons time though when it happened?

Dooom

id suspect Yemen. tis a great place though. arent they in cahoots with iraq and the like? (i know nothing of detailed politics) i though theres been a lot of rebellion n stuff goin on down there...

Typedef

Originally posted by mr_angry4

I also find it hard to believe that all the Israeli nukes are Israeli-built. I'd say a considerable amount have been flogged (given?) to them by the Americans.
[/CYNICISM]

Actually it was the French who were most directly responsible (back then) for helping Israel develop the bomb.

http://times.hankooki.com/lpage/nation/200303/kt2003030417272311970.htm

They also fired a missile over Japan which landed somewhere off its' North East coast.

mr_angry

Did you see the one comment underneath that story?

"Elvis found at South Pole"

Very funny.

Anyway, its good to see American representitives talking about peaceful solutions again. Of course, some unnamed source tried to counter this by saying they should bomb the nuclear facility if the Koreans try to enter the export market.

However, its perfectly clear that this is an attempt by Kim Jong II to gain a better bargaining position for his country. If he's completely sane, then it might be a great tactic. However, if he's a crazed lunatic, then we could be in trouble.

I agree with your points. However, there is no love lost between the North Koreans and the Japanese, plus the Koreans see Japan as a symbol of western culture taking over in Asia.

In essence the same remains for China. They've had the Bomb for a long time now, and they certainly dislike both the west & Japan.

Everyone talks abt N.Korea but remember that China is alot more powerful, and ruled by the same system. One Man with the power. Disaster hasn't happened yet, and i doubt it will for years yet from that side of the world. Their leaders might be slighly insane but not that stupid.

In regards to Israel, using nukes, i feel the same way as i do in regards to the US, or most western nations. The US has Always said that they'll use Nukes to defend themselves, and their opinion of defending the States, has expanded to invading Iraq. So by their eyes nukes are a logical weapon to use.

At the end of the day, its not the nations i'm worried about. Its the Intelligence communities, or spec op/shadow groups that have access to such weapons( i'm including chemical & biological here)

Victor

Originally posted by utility_
I fail to see what they'd gain by attacking Japan, however.

Destroy industrial capacity, ruin world economy, get back at them for hundreds of years of enslavement, etc.

Look up http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/index.html for countries with realistic (as opposed to actual) WMD capabilities.

If it wanted, Ireland could have Biologicial and Chemical warfare programs in the morning, reaching an initial capability in months.

Originally posted by Victor
Destroy industrial capacity, ruin world economy, get back at them for hundreds of years of enslavement, etc.

Look up http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/index.html for countries with realistic (as opposed to actual) WMD capabilities.

If it wanted, Ireland could have Biologicial and Chemical warfare programs in the morning, reaching an initial capability in months.

Yes but why would they want to "ruin" the world economy by attacking Japan? They wouldn't actually gain anything from it. It's be like "yay we ruined the world economy...oh no, we're dead now". Lets just assume that the country isn't filled with fanatics who are only out for revenge. Chances are if they were going to use any sort of WMD, it would be for some sort of tactical purpose

mr_angry

Originally posted by utility_
Yes but why would they want to "ruin" the world economy by attacking Japan? They wouldn't actually gain anything from it. It's be like "yay we ruined the world economy...oh no, we're dead now". Lets just assume that the country isn't filled with fanatics who are only out for revenge. Chances are if they were going to use any sort of WMD, it would be for some sort of tactical purpose

See the previous posts on the power being in the hands of one crazed lunatic for the response I couldn't be arsed giving here.

See the previous posts on the power being in the hands of one crazed lunatic for the response I couldn't be arsed giving here.

Well considering he's been in power for decades, he hasn't destroyed his nation yet. He might be insane but he's not stupid. He's not going to do anything that destroys the warped nation he has built, unless he see's a chance of coming out on top.

Hitler was insane, but it was only after 4 years of continous war that he lost his grasp on reality.