Dublin Suburban Improvements

sligoliner

Name one operational or any change you would make to improve the rail service in Dublin, using the current system?

Thanks

dmeehan

make use of the phoenix park tunnel for one

BendiBus

Arrow service to Connolly via Phoenix Park tunnel with new stops somewhere around Kylemore Rd-Inchicore would be nice.

Floater

Originally posted by sligoliner
Name one operational or any change you would make to improve the rail service in Dublin, using the current system?

Order duplex trains which will double the network’s capacity on any given length of platform limit. There is surely no point in wasting money on rolling stock today that can’t grow with the city? In the sbb configuration they can take 400 people per module and up to three modules can be connected together and run from one engine – ie 1200 passengers for peak services – ie a similar capacity to seven large Boeing 737 aircraft. Vital on any airport route, though that is strictly speaking outside the scope of this thread.

Upstairs people get a nice view. Downstairs there is customized space for people with large objects such as bikes so they can sit near them. Playrooms for children. Air conditioned. Easy access for reduced mobility passengers at all entrances. Top speed 130kph. No need for road pricing with these, nobody in their right mind would even think about bringing a car. Far superior journey experience compared with being cramped in a metro.

Don’t force these babies to stop everywhere like DART or you will end up with a slow service and clogged up lines. Eg If my local station was Salthill/Monkstown I wouldn’t mind if they closed it (even if just at peak periods) and ran a feeder shuttle to the next station if I got to town twice as fast and more trains could run along the line. I'm unlikely to live directly next to the station so using another station up or downstream shouldn't be a great inconvenience. Alternatively one could walk to Dun Laoghaire or cycle to the train.

Floater

http://www.sbb.ch/bahn2000/e/nahverkehr.htm

http://www.rail.ch/pv/files/sts/video/SwissTravelSystem_256.wmv
(duplex train featured at 4 sec and 1m36sec - save to disk first unless you have broadband)

sligoliner

Sadly our loading gauge in Ireland is too small for double deck stock. Germany has UIC loading gauge which is much larger than ours. It would cost millions to do - all the bridges and overhead electricfaction would have to raised up and the curves on the lines widened to avoid overhang.

dmeehan

Originally posted by sligoliner
Sadly our loading gauge in Ireland is too small for double deck stock. Germany has UIC loading gauge which is much larger than ours. It would cost millions to do - all the bridges and overhead electricfaction would have to raised up and the curves on the lines widened to avoid overhang.

and all of the platforms lowered too!

Floater

Originally posted by sligoliner
Sadly our loading gauge in Ireland is too small for double deck stock. Germany has UIC loading gauge which is much larger than ours. It would cost millions to do - all the bridges and overhead electricfaction would have to raised up and the curves on the lines widened to avoid overhang.

I don’t entirely buy that cop-out!

1) You can have the rolling stock configured for the “loading gauge” of your network. Ireland’s track gauge is wacky so everything has to be specially made anyway. England has a similarly pathetically gauged rail infrastructure and I read that they had double deck trains in operation in the London area in the 1940s. The main reason for abandoning the strategy is that they couldn’t empty them fast enough! They had tiny doors that people had to slam shut – rather than the wide electric sliding doors used on modern duplex trains.

2) Double deck trains gain their height to provide two floors by creating a “basement” floorline. When you enter the vehicle at platform level you have to go down stairs to enter a lower level seating area. The train’s wheel assembly is under the entrance level – ie platform level. The lower level floor is “almost touching the tracks” so to speak.

3) There is absolutely no excuse for any new railway infrastructure being constructed not providing adequate dimensions for duplex rolling stock.


Floater

Floater

Originally posted by dmeehan
and all of the platforms lowered too!

No you don't. They work with the same platform height. Please see 2 above

Floater

Sarsfield

And what about bridges & tunnels & overhead power lines Floater?

Sarsfield

I'd go with the first 2 replies.

Start up a proper western suburban service using the Phoenix Park tunnel. You could also add a station (or even 2) around Cabra.

Add a new platform opposite platform 10 in Heuston. Call the area Heuston Suburban.

If the underground interconnector people really want to dig a useful tunnel, they could provide an underground travelator service from Heuston Suburban to Heuston Mainline

And maybe a Lucan South station? With plenty of park&ride space.

Sarsfield

Adequate and secure bicycle parking at all stations.

Maybe even allow people to bring their bikes on the train? Although I accept there are issues of space & possibly safety involved here.

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
And what about bridges & tunnels & overhead power lines Floater?

What about them? There are no reports of duplex trains which have been properly configured for the networks on which they operate running into overhead power lines, tunnels or bridges.

If proper bike racks are provided in the compartment why should there be a safety issue?

Am I missing something?


Floater

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
Adequate and secure bicycle parking at all stations.

Maybe even allow people to bring their bikes on the train? Although I accept there are issues of space & possibly safety involved here.

What good is it cycling to the railway station at the start of your journey and leaving your bike there? Why not complete the journey using the same technology?

Floater

Sarsfield

To clarify my question, can a double-decker train fit under the existing bridges, tunnels & OHLE in the Dublin suburban network?

Sarsfield

Originally posted by Floater
What good is it cycling to the railway station at the start of your journey and leaving your bike there? Why not complete the journey using the same technology?

Floater

I took the thread topic to include the entire Dublin Suburban network. A bicycle trip from, say Greystones to Maynooth would be a little too much for me. However a 10 minute cycle at either end would be quite healthy.

And which compartment on the DART so you suggest the cycle racks be installed in?

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
To clarify my question, can a double-decker train fit under the existing bridges, tunnels & OHLE in the Dublin suburban network?

Logically if the rolling stock is ordered to meet the required spec, they will fit.

I notice that you have only registered on boards today. Welcome.

Floater

Sarsfield

Originally posted by Floater
Logically if the rolling stock is ordered to meet the required spec, they will fit.

And just as logically, if all the pax are ordered to a 3foot6 tall spec they will fit in the trains

Thank you for your kind welcome.

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
I took the thread topic to include the entire Dublin Suburban network. A bicycle trip from, say Greystones to Maynooth would be a little too much for me. However a 10 minute cycle at either end would be quite healthy.

And which compartment on the DART so you suggest the cycle racks be installed in?

I can't think of anywhere really. There is no space. The reality of an over-stretched single deck train infrastructure.

Why the country needs to move to duplex rolling stock now.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
And just as logically, if all the pax are ordered to a 3foot6 tall spec they will fit in the trains

Not a prob.

Floater

PS
If anyone's thinking about the 2m tall basketball player, he is catered for too. There is seating on the platform level of the train at the entrance which has full height ceilings. Upstairs one has to bend one's head before sitting down at around the 183cm height level. Never bothers anybody. The trade-off is a seat with a nice view.

However nobody ever stands upstairs. All standing is done at full height level.

A train is a three dimensional object with all sorts of possibilities for intelligent layout.

F

Sarsfield

Originally posted by Floater
I can't think of anywhere really. There is no space. The reality of an over-stretched single deck train infrastructure.

Why the country needs to move to duplex rolling stock now.

Floater

OK, I walked into that one

But I still can't see how double-decker trains will fit on (or under) existing infrastructure.

Anyway, with all the under-utilised track in the north-west and south-west of the city, would it not be better to develop services there rather than prioritise the east coast?

gurramok

Originally posted by Sarsfield
I'd go with the first 2 replies.

Start up a proper western suburban service using the Phoenix Park tunnel. You could also add a station (or even 2) around Cabra.

And maybe a Lucan South station? With plenty of park&ride space.

Yep, would be nice
Hueston and Connolly stations should of been connected years ago, though Luas will do so via Abbey Street. Shuttle service is not encouraging in traffic at moment.

I have been using Arrow for only a week now and it is seriously overcrowded at peak hours i have travelled on it.
If a Cabra station was to happen, it would add more to the capacity problem.
At moment, passengers trying to get the train going from Pearse northwards towards maynooth struggle to fit onto the train. Adding more stations is out of the question unless more trains and/or more frequency of trains is added.

Presently, circa 1,500 appartments/houses are been built at Ashtown and been advertised 'as easy access to rail service'
How on earth can these extra people be squashed onto the existing train, on the roof ?

By the way, where is train line for lucan ?
Having a train service serving the western suburbs and bringing them straight to Connolly via Hueston where they could interchange would be a huge boost for commuters living there.

Park & Ride would be good if it existed, its what I do but I have to park the car in a nearby housing estate

Floater

What are your height limitations in Irish Rail in the Dublin suburban area - ie from track (not platform) to top? Which lines do they apply to? How many bridges are involved? Which routes involve tunnels? Which routes don't involve tunnels? Why do you allow all these new road bridges which run over your railway lines to be built at such a low untenable clearance levels – which will HAVE TO BE changed at some future point for electrification and future developments?

While the DART system obviously has tunnel issues around Dun Laoghaire to Killiney (which may or may not be an issue) surely the rest of the network in the Dublin area is only constrained by a number of overhead bridges at most? Trains don't have to be "fatter" to be duplex.

Floater

Sarsfield

My Lucan South suggestion is on the Kildare Line, between Clondalkin & Hazelhatch. South of the sprawling housing estates which are most probably advertised as Lucan.

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield
Anyway, with all the under-utilised track in the north-west and south-west of the city, would it not be better to develop services there rather than prioritise the east coast?

The last place I would put duplex trains would be on the DART route in terms of priorities. However the constraints of this thread forbid one from talking about new infrastructure in terms of lines!

Purely from a priority perspective one needs a high capacity duplex system between north of Dublin airport with about three stops before city centre, continuing south west to serve Tallaght and provision for beyond. Beyond the airport the system could fan out into several sub-lines serving east, north and west of the airport. This would allow airport to city centre in 10 mins. City centre to Tallaght in about 12 mins.

Metro is madness because it is only like a big tram under ground with a little more capacity. While portion of an S-bahn system would have to go underground, the underground portion would be relatively painless due to the short time and high speed involved.

Floater

Sarsfield

Originally posted by Floater
The last place I would put duplex trains would be on the DART route in terms of priorities. However the constraints of this thread forbid one from talking about new infrastructure in terms of lines!

Purely from a priority perspective one needs a high capacity duplex system between north of Dublin airport with about three stops before city centre, continuing south west to serve Tallaght and provision for beyond. Beyond the airport the system could fan out into several sub-lines serving east, north and west of the airport. This would allow airport to city centre in 10 mins. City centre to Tallaght in about 12 mins.

Metro is madness because it is only like a big tram under ground with a little more capacity. While portion of an S-bahn system would have to go underground, the underground portion would be relatively painless due to the short time and high speed involved.

Floater

Re Paragraph1 - We could talk about the Maynooth, Drogheda & Kildare lines if you like

Re Paragraph2 - Definitely would like to see proper rail services to Tallaght & the airport. Please provide supporting evidence/justification for the other assertions (duplex, journey times, fan-lines from airport).

Re Paragraph3 - Which metro did you have in mind when making that assertion? Any I've travelled on have a rather substantial capacity & frequency. A different league to trams.

embraer170

Floater,

http://www.rail.ch/pv/files/sts/vid...lSystem_256.wmv
(duplex train featured at 4 sec and 1m36sec - save to disk first unless you have broadband)

A nice video that is, however one minor correction. The train at sec 4 is an a long-distance IC2000 and is not used on SBahn routes at all.

BTW I suppose you know the CFF have ordered new duplex SBahns from Bombardier (for delivery from 2005 IIRC).

Jer

Floater

Re Paragraph1 - We could talk about the Maynooth, Drogheda & Kildare lines if you like

We could – if one answered the questions about height constraints on these lines. As it stands there are no quantified problems with duplex rolling stock. So off we go on our new duplex train to Kildare…

Re Paragraph2 - Definitely would like to see proper rail services to Tallaght & the airport. Please provide supporting evidence/justification for the other assertions (duplex, journey times, fan-lines from airport).

The current Irish model seems to be Madrid, where the streets are clogged night and day. It depends on a metro system – like many other European cities – which provides a “dole” type of public transport. It is used by the young who can’t afford cars and poorer people generally. Leave college. Get a decent job. Get a car and the last thing on their minds is public transport for commuting. They want to drive. Period.

Switzerland has had the highest car ownership on the planet for decades. It had to act early to move into mass usage of public transport and is ahead of the curve on every other country.

They have followed the following logic.

a) We have to build a public transport system that people will use as a matter of choice. Neither the Cantonal nor Federal Governments can pass laws to force people to use public transport (eg road use charging) because the public can call a referendum and throw the law out. Which forces governments there to be creative.

b) They have to make it pleasant (ie not underground as far as possible), well interconnected to give as close to the car in terms of door to door connectivity, and to fit in with people’s increasingly green lifestyle aspirations. It has to be able to deal with virtually everyone in the city using it all the time.

c) Metros are like DART. They tend to stop everywhere and move slowly as a result. When you start bus feeding people to a slow metro, their end to end journey times will be high. Feed them to an s-bahn and the wow factor of getting into town in comfort within a few minutes makes them “come from miles” just to use it. An s-bahn line will have a wider usage corridor than a metro as a result. Metros can’t accommodate bicycles and most people end up standing en route while traveling in a hole in the ground for 20-30 minutes. Not very pleasant day in day out. I’ll think I’ll use the car tomorrow…!

d) While many German cities initially went for metros (u-bahnen), they were really only glorified trams under ground. All German cities (of Dublin’s size) have gone for the S-bahn model since. The difference between U and S is that S has fewer stops and depends on buses and trams to feed stations and most S routes are over ground and increasingly duplexed. You don't need as many stops when you have feeder buses and trams and all good integrated public transport systems use this by default.

e) Zurich had a number of referenda about installing a metro which were all defeated by the people. The people had no problem voting for S bahns. Please see http://images.torino-internazionale.org/f/ApprofondimentiQU/Re/Referat.PDF

f) The Swiss have got to the situation where everybody loves public transport. Over 300 million passengers a year in Zurich area. It would have taken a far greater investment in metro to deal with this high level of market penetration and the metro would not have provided the same quality of service. Most of the infrastructure used for the S-bahns was over ground train lines which were historically under-utilised.

The fanout lines derive from this to make most use of legacy infrastructure (rather than creating additional radial lines at 10, 11 and 12 O’clock etc).

g) A metro is a temporary infrastructure in terms of dealing with a growing city. All the new lines in Paris are s-bahn type – (called RER). Using them one can cross the city in a few minutes compared with half an hour or more in a metro car. If you study the line to CDG airport, some of the trains run non-stop until they reach the airport area and stop at just three or four stations in the vicinity of same. If a traditional metro served that airport it would take more than an hour to get there.


Timetable extract from www.rail.ch tonight for Glattbrugg – Zurich S-5 service – distance 11kms – eg similar to Swords to town:

Timetable for connection 1: From Glattbrugg to Zürich HB

Station Date Platform Arr. Dep. Platform Train Services
Glattbrugg 15.10.03 22:43 2B S5 18595
Zürich HB 15.10.03 23/24 22:53

Duration of journey : 0:10
runs always

Fast opening doors. Short dwell times at stations. Rapid accelleration.

By contrast the DART line is clogged by stops and slow moving trains.


Re Paragraph3 - Which metro did you have in mind when making that assertion? Any I've travelled on have a rather substantial capacity & frequency. A different league to trams.

Madrid, Barcelona, Lisbon, Milan, …., you name them. They have ALL FAILED TO DO THE JOB. Serious traffic congestion remains in ALL metro dependant cities. They can't cope with rush hour volumes comfortably. While this is bad in 2003 future uncertainties regarding energy supplies, Kyoto, etc makes it imperative that one follows the Swiss route.

Despite the fact that Zurich has the most rigorously pro public transport traffic signals of any city in the world it is the fastest city to drive around if you really want to. No problem parking either – even cheaper than Dublin too!

You will find a real-time street traffic density map of Zurich at http://www.zueritraffic.ch/ Click on an area to zoom in. Click on a street to see real-time traffic statistics for that street. Green and yellow is free moving. Red is blocked. The traffic statistics show the number of vehicles per hour (with past history for the past 45 minutes or so and forecast trend into a similar time period). Visit this map regularly and you won’t find many red problems.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. Hop on a plane and head for Zurich. Pretend that you have a car waiting for you at the hotel. Travel around the city on trams, buses, S-bahn, and boats. Stay as long as you like. Bet you, you won’t feel like touching your virtual car once!

Check out the mainline railway station at the airport while you are at it. Direct services to/from every Swiss city and virtually every town – without the need to change in the city centre.

Zurich Hauptbahnhof is a model if efficiency. There are hundreds of shops where one can pick up food and a zillion other things while on the way home. No need to drive to the shopping centre. Another reason to leave the car at home. Cleanest railway station toilets on the planet too!


Floater

Floater

Originally posted by embraer170
Floater,



A nice video that is, however one minor correction. The train at sec 4 is an a long-distance IC2000 and is not used on SBahn routes at all.

I haven't been on a duplex inter city train in Switzerland yet. Virtually every new TGV entering service on SNCF is duplex lately. Is the day of the single deck train numbered I ask myself?

Floater

John R

Double-deck trains will not fit on any line in Ireland.

embraer170

@John R:

Double-deck trains will not fit on any line in Ireland.

Then maybe it is time to make the changes to make theml fit. Double deckers couldn't run on Swiss long distance lines until 1998 either but they made the changes and now you have them on countless routes.

I am also a strong believer that the remaining Irish single track lines (which handle any volume of traffic) should be double tracked now. It will only get more difficult with all the building etc. going on.

@Floater:

Definitely a very interesting view point. While most people here would just be happy with something, you have already gone beyond that: forward planning that is rare.

I haven't been on a duplex inter city train in Switzerland yet.

Probably the most pleasant rolling stock I know. When on the upper deck, you would not believe you are travelling on a train. Total silence, no vibration, nothing!

Jer

Sarsfield

Thank you for that Floater. It will take some time for me to digest it all (and do some follow up research).

However,for now, I will stick with my original suggestion. West Dublin- Park Tunnel -Cabra - City Center on single deck diesel railcars. Maybe its not as visionary as your Zurich railway, but it can be done quite easily and it will make a difference.

embraer, are you a young kerryman with swiss links by any chance?