Dublin Suburban Improvements

Floater

S-bahn v Metro compared

1. Scalability
S-bahn is highly scalable giving you twice as many passengers on a vehicle per metre of station platform and can run three train sets from one engine if required. The carrying capacity of three jumbo jets in one suburban train.

In contrast Metro is a big tram that runs underground. Overground or underground metro stations will have to be huge as passenger numbers grow. Long platforms underground cost lots of money. Long platforms above ground take up lots of expensive urban real estate.

2. Speed
S-bahn can speed up to 130kph in suburbia whereas the typical metro runs at 50-70 kph. S-bahn turns distant suburbia into comfortable commuteland. Metro means stop after stop and slow progress in between. As you throw more metro trains down the line to deal with rush hour peaks you hit rail infrastructure timetable constraints as we now have with DART with slow trains and lots of stops, delays, cancellations. The S-bahn in contrast is an Olympic sprinter that can zip between one station and the next, using fewer stations along a given route and achieving far higher speeds as a result of both the longer gap between each station and the more powerful traction system. Speed is essential – particularly in outer suburbia if public transport is to decimate the car.

3. Comfort
A duplex s-bahn train rides smooth and quiet like a TGV. Noise and vibration make one’s journey tiring. The average metro is like an aircraft experiencing turbulence with its air conditioning switched off! Which would you prefer to experience each morning or after work or when you head for Grafton Street on a Saturday morning?

4. Green and Cool
The S-bahn has room for a designer interior with bike racks in most compartments, play rooms and tables to work at while providing everyone with a place to sit. Most of the seating is removed from metro cars because metro is basically a strap hanging stand up job!

Floater

commuterised

get rid of the smoking carraige on the Arklow line.
It's only half full while people are standing in the other carraiges, no one wants to sit there unless you don't smoke cos you end up getting to work reeking, like you've been in the pub all night.

dmeehan

Originally posted by commuterised
get rid of the smoking carraige on the Arklow line.
It's only half full while people are standing in the other carraiges, no one wants to sit there unless you don't smoke cos you end up getting to work reeking, like you've been in the pub all night.

it'll be gone from Jan 1st anyway

jd

he
wait until you're in the 2600 railcar (december i think)-you will be pining for that old craven set...

Victor

Originally posted by silverside
Yes indeed, and they also recommended a metro to tallaght to link up with a new metro to the airport. And they builit in the capabilty for the Sandyford Luas to be upgraded to Metro principally just by replacing the rolling stock.

Theere are issues with upgrading Luas to Metro. The track (rail + sleepers) are designed to only a certain load level and guess what, we will ahve another program of extending platforms to take bigger "trains"...

Sarsfield

Originally posted by Floater
S-bahn v Metro compared

1. Scalability
S-bahn is highly scalable giving you twice as many passengers on a vehicle per metre of station platform...

2. Speed
S-bahn turns distant suburbia into comfortable commuteland....

3. Comfort
A duplex s-bahn train rides smooth and quiet like a TGV...

4. Green and Cool
The S-bahn has room for a designer interior with bike racks in most compartments, play rooms and tables to work at while providing everyone with a place to sit.

1. Twice as many? My only experience of duplex trains is in Holland. The lower level seems much smaller than the upper level (only the space between the bogies available). Maybe 50% increase in capacity if even that?

2. Do we really want to encourage more urban sprawl by catering for outer suburbia as though it was really part of the city? Personally I don't.

3. Is this to do with duplex trains or the quality of the permanent way & the vehicles bogies?

4. This appears to contradict your first point. Sounds like the marketing spin for the new Airbus 380 when we all know that every available space will be used to cram more pax.

Floater

Originally posted by Sarsfield

Twice as many? My only experience of duplex trains is in Holland. The lower level seems much smaller than the upper level (only the space between the bogies available). Maybe 50% increase in capacity if even that?

There are three levels effectively in a duplex train.

(a) the “basement level” (-1) which is reached by going down stairs from the entry level.

(b) the “entry level” (0) which also provides seating and standing area under which the boogies reside.

(c) the “upper level” (+1)

While one can argue about numbers, and these will vary depending on configuration, why have rail operators gone for duplex trains? Answer because they fit more people in to a more comfortable environment using the same or less platform space. And the passenger doesn’t have to walk a km or two to find a seat.

Is one building an “a shur ‘twill do” rail network like Irish Rail or a platform to impress large numbers of people out of their cars? If you don’t do the latter congestion will continue in Dublin ad infinitum.

2. Do we really want to encourage more urban sprawl by catering for outer suburbia as though it was really part of the city? Personally I don't.

Outer suburbia has two contexts:

(a) The existing sprawl. Large numbers of them bring their cars into town, so town ends up having to deal with the cars of five or six rings of metropolitana converging on it every day.

The best way to get them to abandon their cars is to offer them a fast, comfortable, class act, public transport system into town or wherever else they might need to go. The only city of similar (or indeed any) size doing this is Zurich. The duplex S-bahn platform has delivered a superior solution for them to Metro or Arrow or Dart. Go and look at it! Aer Lingus have a 50% off ticket sale at the moment. Or you could try Europe’s Airline of the Year – www.swiss.ch!

(b) New communities. There is room for new integrated towns purpose built around public transport, bikeways, green energy efficient houses and associated local employment. These could be easily connected into a new high speed urban rail network. Metro would provide them with a poor solution. These communities help stop urban sprawl.

3. Is this to do with duplex trains or the quality of the permanent way & the vehicles bogies?

Partially. But they are also heavier and the -1 passenger space is very close to the ground giving them a good balance.

4. This appears to contradict your first point. Sounds like the marketing spin for the new Airbus 380 when we all know that every available space will be used to cram more pax.

Joe Meagher of Irish Rail was on the radio the other day claiming that his new arrow trains can take 1.200 pax. When you go to Zurich can I suggest that you jump on the biggest most crowded duplex train you can find in Zurich Haputbahnhof at rush hour (say 16 or 17h). Chances are that you will find a seat for yourself and space for your virtual bike. When you get back ask Joe to show you his arrow train with 1199 other PAX and get on board that. Compare and contrast comfort levels. Can his new rolling stock operate at up to 110kph? – eg can they get one from Dublin airport to town in 10 minutes with say two stops in between?

Irish Rail are wasting everybody's time and money. While the current half baked strategy will at best buy a little breathing space it will not break the back of Dublin's traffic problem.

Is it any wonder that Ireland has fallen to 30th position in WEF economic rankings for 2003, while traditionally high labour cost Switzerland is at 7?

http://www.weforum.org/pdf/Gcr/GCR_2003_2004/Competitiveness_Rankings.pdf

Floater

embraer170

Or you could try Europe’s Airline of the Year – www.swiss.ch!

Me just wonders how many journalists got free holidays to Dubai for that award.

At least you still get a free sandwich and drink on Aer Lingus, none on Swiss.

Floater

Originally posted by embraer170
Me just wonders how many journalists got free holidays to Dubai for that award.

As an acquaintance of beamter Sarsfield you would say that wouldn’t you!

Swiss did an excellent job training the crew of jetmagic.ie.

Super clean state of the art jet aircraft with leather seats (which they provided). Vacuumed at every leg of the journey unlike other Irish airlines one could think of.

Choice of five open sandwiches, seconds if you are hungry, a choice of several wines poured from full size bottles, Hagen-Datz ice cream, and good quality coffee. Hot towel. Clean toilets.

Reserve online a few minutes before you head for the airport (unlike Ryanair or Aer Lingus).

Floater

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
Reserve online a few minutes before you head for the airport

And watch security snap on the rubber gloves as you approach

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
And watch security snap on the rubber gloves as you approach

Has Victor been molested?

Floater

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
Has Victor been molested?

Verbally only. Booked flights to the States via Amsterdam (Schipol AMS) about 3 days before flying. Flight DUB-AMS was delayed (I think they actually laid on a second flight) and I had to run from one end of terminal to other (it's a big terminal).

Security guy saw:
* young male flying alone
* dressed casually, unshaven
* lugging heavy flight case (double size brief case)
* recent booking, paid in cash (technically Laser)
* jittery, sweating profusely

But at least, my luggage was first off the plane at JFK (meaning they had a good root through it in AMS and put it on the plane last).

I also got told off **severely** for sitting (temporarily) in one of the jump seats to repack by flight case on the flight - "sit in your own seat or I will have you arrested".

But I was freaked out by this Dutch babe smiling at me at immigration in JFK - "I'm not with her, honest officer" (not that I would have minded being "with" her ).

Although there was that time through Dusseldorf where I had a load of pound coins in my back pocket that trigged the metal detector and had me (intimimately) padded down quicker than I could say “Eh?”

And the “candle” I tried to smuggle onto a flight from Bristol – it was a touristy shot glass “Greetings from Bath” that had the same density as a candle on the scanner. The “searcher” guard had a great laugh at the “scanner” guard.

But no, no need for rubber gloves ever.

embraer170

QUOTE]Originally posted by embraer170
Super clean state of the art jet aircraft with leather seats (which they provided). Vacuumed at every leg of the journey unlike other Irish airlines one could think of.

Choice of five open sandwiches, seconds if you are hungry, a choice of several wines poured from full size bottles, Hagen-Datz ice cream, and good quality coffee. Hot towel. Clean toilets.

Reserve online a few minutes before you head for the airport (unlike Ryanair or Aer Lingus).

Ah Floater, you obviously have not flown Swiss recently. Those were the golden days when the old Crossair and Swissair spirit still existed, right now the company is on life support. Currently begging for another €350 million of government money, on top of the €2.5 billion they wasted in the past 18 months.

A sad end for a 70-year dream. Many the Irish can't run the railways but at least we have two of Europe's more profitable airlines.

Floater

Originally posted by embraer170
Ah Floater, you obviously have not flown Swiss recently. Those were the golden days when the old Crossair and Swissair spirit still existed, right now the company is on life support. Currently begging for another €350 million of government money, on top of the €2.5 billion they wasted in the past 18 months.

A sad end for a 70-year dream. Many the Irish can't run the railways but at least we have two of Europe's more profitable airlines.

No he hasn't. He gets the impression that they are copying Aer Lingus of late on the fares front. They now seem far cheaper than Lufthansa whereas before there was no difference in the price. I suspect that the turning point for Swissair was the SR111 crash in 1988 off Nova Scotia. I never used them after that point.

Given their bureaucracy and overhead even after staff cuts - food will probably suffer on short haul flights.

Jetmagic has no bureaucracy. The company is just a website, aircraft and outsourcing agreements and their own staff doing core tasks. While Ryanair staff have to "clean" (joke) the aircraft during a turnaround, JM use the ground handling agent to do the job properly.

Floater

embraer170

No he hasn't. He gets the impression that they are copying Aer Lingus of late on the fares front. They now seem far cheaper than Lufthansa whereas before there was no difference in the price.

Fares are low but their cost-structure is still sky-high. Unlike Aer Lingus, they have totally failed to managed their costs. Passenger numbers increased by 13% following a 42% average cut in fares, the "Swiss in Europe" concept is just making things worse.

I suspect that the turning point for Swissair was the SR111 crash in 1988 off Nova Scotia. I never used them after that point. Given their bureaucracy and overhead even after st
aff cuts

The turning point for Swissair wasd before SR111, it was the whole SAir Group concept taking over every poorly performing airline and company (Sabena for example).

Passengers numbers did not decrease significantly after SR111 and I must say not flying an airline because of a single crash is totally irrational.

If safety is such a concern to you, I am surprised you fly Swiss (previously named Crossair, but a name change does not change your safety record). Recent incidents:

(Crossair name) / January 2000 / 10 dead / Saab-340 / taking-off Zurich / Human Error
(Crossair name) / November 2001 / 24 dead / Bae-146 / landing in Zurich / Human Error
(Swiss name) / July 2002 / no dead / Saab 2000 / emergency landing at small Berlin airfield due to fuel management human error, plane written off

That is 3 aircraft write-offs in 2 years, all caused by human error, a record by European if not world standards.

Floater

Originally posted by embraer170
The turning point for Swissair wasd before SR111, it was the whole SAir Group concept taking over every poorly performing airline and company (Sabena for example).

Passengers numbers did not decrease significantly after SR111 and I must say not flying an airline because of a single crash is totally irrational.

Not irrational. Swissair aircraft were full of electronic gadgets - even on short-haul flights - GPS maps in the seat back displays and PAX entertainment. An electrical fault in this kit was believed to have caused the fire that brought down SR111. While this was an MD11 (which I never liked) I took it for granted that similar kit would be installed on their Airbuses – eg they had a system which would show which gates to head for the connecting flight and this information was displayed as one came in to land. One assumed that it was a common platform that was used across the fleet.

I have no doubt that Sabena also bled them dry. Usual global domination stuff ending on the rocks. The Roman empire expanded and expanded geographically in influence and control until it collapsed. One can see the same thing about to happen today in at least two countries.

If safety is such a concern to you, I am surprised you fly Swiss (previously named Crossair, but a name change does not change your safety record).

I have never flown Swiss.ch While I’ll shop around for fares and know what they charge, I’ll pay three times as much to Lufthansa if I have no alternative to get from A to B. Every now and again I go to Zurich for a weekend. Zug oder autobahn!


Floater

embraer170

Not irrational. Swissair aircraft were full of electronic gadgets - even on short-haul flights - GPS maps in the seat back displays and PAX entertainment. An electrical fault in this kit was believed to have caused the fire that brought down SR111. While this was an MD11 (which I never liked) I took it for granted that similar kit would be installed on their Airbuses – eg they had a system which would show which gates to head for the connecting flight and this information was displayed as one came in to land. One assumed that it was a common platform that was used across the fleet.

Not many more electronic gadgets than other airlines.

On the narrowbodies, the "Airshow" map, connecting gate information, and main LCD screens which drop from the overhead bins etc. is (and even was back then) fairly standard stuff installed by Airbus and used by many carriers.

Swissair was however way behind on their MD-11 long-haul fleet with no personal televisions, not even in Business/First at a time when say Air France already have them in Economy. They consequently decided to take a leap and install revolutionary Audio & Video on Demand: Instead of being limited by 8-20 channels on your screen, it allowed you to stop/start/pause video and music when you want. It was that (or rather the cable used in the installation) which caused SR111.

Nothing of the sort was ever installed or planned on the narrowbodies or the A330-200 widebodies. It was planned for the A330 to keep its Airbus installed system until the A340-600s came in 2002, when it would then be upgraded to the new A340-600 system.

Jeremiah

Floater

Originally posted by embraer170
Not many more electronic gadgets than other airlines.

You are obviously a connoisseur of in-flight entertainment systems. As far as I am concerned they either work or they do not. If they don’t and bring an aircraft down that is a black mark in my books. Poor procurement and / or maintenance. Hence my “de-listing” Swissair / Swiss.

I have given BA the same treatment after paying an arm and a leg for a bit of comfort on several long haul flights only to find that the video system doesn’t work at my seat. May I have another seat please? Doesn’t work there either. Watch flight attendants running with food from the back of the aircraft to the front because the galley cooker isn’t working up front.

If they can’t buy / maintain a cooker or a video player in a reliable fashion, what hope do they have of keeping a complex aircraft in working order? How many households would one visit at random to find “we have to go out to a restaurant today because the cooker is broken” or our video player isn’t working?

Floater

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
I have given BA the same treatment after paying an arm and a leg for a bit of comfort on several long haul flights only to find that the video system doesn’t work at my seat. May I have another seat please? Doesn’t work there either. Watch flight attendants running with food from the back of the aircraft to the front because the galley cooker isn’t working up front.

Would you prefer them to spend time fixing your on-board Playstation* (or whatever) or that loose engine bracket.

* I realise you paid extra for the privalage.