Broadband delay blamed on government

dahamsta

Broadband delay blamed on government
Thursday, October 16 2003
by Ciaran Buckley

The interference of local and national government in the telecoms market has been blamed for the delay in the provision of broadband infrastructure in Ireland.

The condemnation came in a new report commissioned by Brussels Round Table, a forum for European telecom operators and equipment manufacturers including Alcatel, BT, Deutsche Telekom, Ericsson, France Telecom, Siemens and Telecom Italia. No Irish telecom operators are members of the group.

The report says that the construction of the government's Metropolitan Area Networks (MAN) in more than a dozen small cities and towns has actually created a disincentive for operators to roll out broadband. The MANs are to provide a broadband backbone for a variety of broadband platforms, but the report claims that their construction has made the telecom operators reluctant to invest.

[...]

Self-serving. Unadulterated. Bollocks.

The Government has indeed been a serious obstacle to development, but for opposing reasons. First of all, the Government had already tried to pass the development of broadband off to private enterprise, with the selloff of TE. These muppets obviously chose to ignore this fact in order to serve their own end and stay on message. On the message they want, that is.

Secondly, the Government should have started sticking their noses in earlier, when it became obvious what a momentous screwup the TE selloff was. And a final note: The incumbent Irish operator hadn't put a single penny into broadband infrastructure before they had to. Esat BT were hedging every step of the way. To suggest that the Government was somehow holding them back is idiocy of the highest order.

By all means blame the Government, but at least try and get the reasons right, and lay the majority of blame where it belongs: With the operators.

adam

Ripwave

Originally posted by dahamsta
First of all, the Government had already tried to pass the development of broadband off to private enterprise, with the selloff of TE.

Wrong. the Government didn't sell TE to "private enterprise". They sold it to the stock market. There's a substantial difference. The Stock market doesn't give a tuppenny damn about telecommunications provision, it only cares about profit and potential profit. The management of TE didn't change when it was sold, as it would have changed if it had been "taken over" by some other entity.

65% of the shares in TE were owned by pension companies and other "institutional investors". 15% belonged to the employees. And 20% belonged to ordinary Irish taxpayers who were subsequentially screwed royally by Mr O'Reilly.

The governments only concern in selling TE was to generate as much cash as possible. It didn't care whether that would have any effect on BB provision. It certainly didn't sell TE with the intention of improving broadband provision. It definitely didn't use any of the proceeds of the TE privatisation to improve BB provision. (Pouring money into the ground, even with the best of intentions, doesn't count).

Mr_Man

A slightly different slant on this is in an article by Jamie Smyth in to-days Irish Times. .

It noted that the Gubmt's promise to have Ireland in the Top Ten OECD countries for BB takeup was wildly optimisitc. They also noted that the decision to build the MAN's was causing uncertainty in the marketplace. They also noted

quote

Many of the factors for the slow takeup of broadband still exist such as lack of platform competition and a lack of a regulatory environment which will encourage it to emerge says the report which criticises Comregs focus on wholesale access at favourable rates rather than infrastructure competitio.

end quote

M.

dahamsta

By private enterprise I meant "not public"; i.e. not owned by the Government. I sincerely doubt there would be any significant differences today if the Government had in fact sold TE to a privately-held corporation.

adam

thegills

The report says that the construction of the government's Metropolitan Area Networks (MAN) in more than a dozen small cities and towns has actually created a disincentive for operators to roll out broadband. The MANs are to provide a broadband backbone for a variety of broadband platforms, but the report claims that their construction has made the telecom operators reluctant to invest.

Thats sort of stating the obvious.
Why would an operator build network in the 19 towns when a carrier neutral network is being built onto which they can piggy-back when complete?
Why would an operator build national network when CIE, Aurora ans ESBT are doing it and linking up the MAN's.
These MAN's will enable the likes of Colt, WorldCom, Nevadatel.com, etc. compete ouside of Dublin for the very first time.

"One step back, Two steps forward"

thegills

Ripwave

As a matter of interest, how many Irish SMEs have benefitted from all the money that's been poured into these MANs? We know that they've been of sod all use to residential customers, does anyone know of any business customers that have benefitted?

Remind me again how much taxpayers money has been spent on them?

Moriarty

Uhm. Its been of no use because of the small inconvenience of the networks not actually being completed yet. Youll find its rather hard to use any fibre network that isnt.. er.. there.

Ripwave

Originally posted by Moriarty
Uhm. Its been of no use because of the small inconvenience of the networks not actually being completed yet. Youll find its rather hard to use any fibre network that isnt.. er.. there.

That's exactly my point, Moriarty. How long has the government been planning and blathering about these wonderful MANs, and where has it gotten us? Exactly nowhere. And in the meantime, nobody else is bothering to invest.

Ballina was supposed to be the first of these Mans operational (this month). Any word on it?

Mary O'Rourke (Remember her?) launched this "broadband program" in March 2002, according to the Dáil records. How long was her Department in consultation before that?

Moriarty

As far as i know most if not all of the rings are actually being built as we speak. Most are due for completion late this year or early next year from memory.

I dont buy into the premise that the government building these fibre rings is stifling new entrants. In fact, ill call it for what it is - a load of arse. If operators wanted to get into this market the addition of new infrastructure should not be a hurdle to be overcome. Unless of course these operators were looking to jump in only to contribute to the current cartel with comfortable prices.

If theyre waiting to see who the MSE turns out to be and what prices are like on the rings, fair enough - that makes sense - but moaning about a few months of delays is nonsensical when the infrastructure that is being built is the enabling factor for the new entrants in the first place.

spongebob

Originally posted by Ripwave
That's exactly my point, Moriarty. How long has the government been planning and blathering about these wonderful MANs, and where has it gotten us? Exactly nowhere. And in the meantime, nobody else is bothering to invest.

Since March 2002 just before the last election except that there were 123 towns in the plan then while only 20 will ever be built (or so it seems) , anybody hear about phase 2 recently, 43 towns including Dublin.

LLU should have been a reality since January 2001 but it looks more like January 2005 with Eircom co-operating (not).

Ballina was supposed to be the first of these Mans operational (this month). Any word on it?

The company that will run all the MANs has not been selected, that means there snobody to stop Ballina people from setting up the odd Gigabit LAN (on a pilot basis of course ) pending the final decision on Telecom Eireann 2 ......or the MSE as it is better known.

Mary O'Rourke (Remember her?) launched this "broadband program" in March 2002, according to the Dáil records. How long was her Department in consultation before that?

Not long it seems. O'Rourke announed it prematurely as the election was imminent.

M

bk

I agree with Moriarty above 100%.

This is just Eircoms latest excuse.

First of all Eircom clamied that it would cost them too much to roll out bb.

Then they said that there wasn't enough interest amongst the public for bb.

IOFFL has successfully debunked both of does silly excuses.

Now Eircoms latest excuse is the government:

1) Oh the government stoped the initial rollout of bb with them challenging the price in court. (Complete bs, it was completely Eircoms fault because they where attempting margin squeeze).

2) Oh the government wouldn't give us a license to transmit TV over DSL, therefore we had to dump all our expensive TV-DSL gear and start all over again. (It was a stupid idea in the first place and was never likely to be feasible, TV-DSL still remains experimental, the main reason they dropped it is because NTL stopped being a threat to them, when they stopped the rollout of cable bb).

3) Oh the government investment in infrastructure has made as all frightened little pussy cats and we don't want to play anymore. (oh please, they are just afraid that their precious leased line cartel might be broken, tough luck, compete or die).

Lads, ignore it, Eircom will use any excuse it can use to drag it's feet on the DSL rollout and dropping prices.

We in IOFFL will just have to continue debunking these excuses with facts and figures like we always have (and very successfully I may add). In fact I think Eircom is getting really desperate with the excuses now.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Ripwave
Ballina was supposed to be the first of these Mans operational (this month). Any word on it?

The other evening, I had to manoeuvre around a Morricom van that was pulling fibre through one of the ducts. It's nearly there.

Having a MSE to do something with it would be a useful step tho...

spongebob

those who help themselves and all that !

Ripwave

Originally posted by bk
I agree with Moriarty above 100%.

This is just Eircoms latest excuse.

Did you bother to read the original post, bk?

The condemnation came in a new report commissioned by Brussels Round Table, a forum for European telecom operators and equipment manufacturers including Alcatel, BT, Deutsche Telekom, Ericsson, France Telecom, Siemens and Telecom Italia. No Irish telecom operators are members of the group.

Eircom is the only telecoms company actually investing in rolling out broadband in Ireland (it's not as if they can't afford it, but that's another story). And they're investing because they've got a last mile monopoly.

Now to get back to the original question. How many Irish SMEs have broadband now, on foot of the €160 million(!) the government is investing in fibre MANs? Anyone want to put money on how many will have broadband from this source this time next year, instead of getting DSL from eircom?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Ripwave
Did you bother to read the original post, bk? Eircom is the only telecoms company actually investing in rolling out broadband in Ireland (it's not as if they can't afford it, but that's another story). And they're investing because they've got a last mile monopoly.

If Eircom did not have a last mile monopoly in the past, for example, there was competition from cable companies, this investment would have been occurring years earlier. The lack of competition meant that Eircom could sit back and milk metered dial-up, metered ISDN and leased lines.

bk

Originally posted by Ripwave
Did you bother to read the original post, bk?

Yes I did, I know Eircom hasn't been saying anything about the MAN (in fact they wanted to apply to be the MSE, but the government told them to take a running jump). However it is only a matter of time before they start whinging also like the other monopolistic telecos in Europe.

They have blamed the government on the other two issues.

As for the rest, SkepticOne is right. A MAN won't stop them from rolling out DSL, it will increase competition, like cable has done in the UK.

oscarBravo

Originally posted by Muck
[qhat about] those who help themselves and all that !

Much as I'd love to plug something into the fibre, Muck, I'm pretty sure the MSE is going to be the only entity allowed to light any of it.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by bk
Yes I did, I know Eircom hasn't been saying anything about the MAN

They haven't said too much in public but Phil Nolan did complain about market distortion in a piece he wrote for the Irish Times back in early 2002.

As far as I'm concerned the market needs distorting back into the shape of a balanced competitive market.

Dangger

There is one HUGE thing being overlooked in the comments slamming the government on their re-entry to telecoms la-la land Ireland.

Both EsatBT and Eircom received millions and millions each for their existing ADSL programmes. They came with cap in hand to Dermot Ahern and were assisted.

I cannot believe the telcos are coming out with such utter SH1TE! Without government money it would appear (according to the telco's involved) that they could not carry out their broadband initiatives to the extent they have done.

So the message from the telcos appears to be - no government action no broadband, and with government action no broadband.
Throw rattle out of pram.

They are simply continuing to play the game they have played so will for so long, and it worked up until Dermot Ahern. His predecessor Mary O'Rourke feared the consequences of taking them on, she had Springy Dick and Ray to guide her hand of course! Now the Irish telco corporate - government love in has come to an end.

The telcos have sought new partners to apply pressure to the government. And they have found them in the likes of IBEC (surprise surprise) and it's countless incarnations, including the Telecms Internet Federation. The telcos fear the consequence of a cheaper backhaul method being made available in Ireland, one which they have no control over, and right from the start they were shut out , because no existing Irish telecoms licience holder was permitted to apply for the MSE tender.

IBEC are also out to quosh Dermot Ahern's proposed broadband levy to ensure connectivity for schools. IBEC are going to save us all, and draw up a better plan by bringing all the operators together to get a better initiative together (all together now,... heal the world.... make it a better place.....).

All these fighting fixed line operators coming together under IBEC, ah it bings a tear to my eye, I'm sure it will be a fantastic plan. Oh hang on, aren't these the same fixed line operators that ComReg brought together to draw up the partial private circuit price reductions over 12 month discussions and actually ended up with a product that is in some cases 50% more expensive then the one they set out to reduce the cost of?

I'm with Dermot on this one also. What he did with FRIACO was action with positive reaction frmo the operators. I stand by the MAN and say that we can only see positive reaction from its completion from the competing operators and those new operators who will be enabled by it.

With regard to the MAN project, the building on several of the MAN rings is nearing completion in many cases. The completion dates are available here www.dcmnr.ie/mse

The build has continued it the absence of the selected MSE. The MSE tender will be awarded with in the next 30 days, and 12 months later this MSE will be offering service over the MAN's. Within this 12 month timeframe it is likely that there will be improvement in coverage amongst competing operators as they realise the storm is coming. One of the most important features if the MAN should hopefully be a fixed cost of data transmission for the whole of Ireland. No more pie in the sky pricing for connections outside of Dublin.

dahamsta

Dave, I know I'm probably stating the obvious on this but it's important to point out in case you missed the line in the ENN article: The Irish operators aren't involved in this round table. Any attempt to dis them or lay blame at their feet on this will be met with a dismissing wave of the hand.

It's still bollocks and I agree with much of what you say, but unfortunately it can't really be addressed.

adam

Dangger

Sorry, I realise that no Irish operators were involved (or hurt) in the compilation of the report. It's not really soley the report I'm discussing, it's the prevailing attitude of the telco's here to the DCMNR's actions. Although I admit have yet to read the full report, I'm interestd to see how they covered the DSL funding handed to the operators by the government if they did at all.

I'm aware of a build up of government bashing in the broadband front over the past two weeks. The recent comments to Bertie, the press coverage of the report this thread is commenting on, the comments from Alto on PPC issues. We'll have the special sub-committee report on communciations report that IOFFL presented to recently coming out soon as Noel Ahern has signalled recently, and we'll have an MSE tender winner. Meanwhile IBEC are saying they'll stick their big fat thumbs into the mess too by helping the government redraw the broadband for schools plan.

No one wants to miss the train, when it eventually leaves !

Cuauhtemoc

Bit off topic, but are there any hints of who will win the MSE tender?

thegills

The company that will run all the MANs has not been selected, that means there snobody to stop Ballina people from setting up the odd Gigabit LAN (on a pilot basis of course ) pending the final decision on Telecom Eireann 2 ......or the MSE as it is better known.

This will mean that Mayo CoCo will have to become a licensed Telco. The CoCo's will not sit on unlit fibre so if there is no MSE in place within a few months...

Since March 2002 just before the last election except that there were 123 towns in the plan then while only 20 will ever be built (or so it seems) , anybody hear about phase 2 recently, 43 towns including Dublin

The DCMNR are currently looking at this. The funding will most likely be used for mainly wireless initiatives as rolling out fibre in phase 2 could prove too expensive

How many Irish SMEs have broadband now, on foot of the €160 million(!) the government is investing in fibre MANs? Anyone want to put money on how many will have broadband from this source this time next year, instead of getting DSL from eircom?

e60M my friend. There are numerous telco's sitting in the wings waiting to use the MAN's. There is still the problem with backhaul from their Dublin POP's out to these MAN's as only eircom and Esat BT can really provide it. We need Hibernia Atlantic, Aurora and ESBT to get their acts together.

Much as I'd love to plug something into the fibre, Muck, I'm pretty sure the MSE is going to be the only entity allowed to light any of it.

On the contrary, the MSE will manage dark fibre and market it to the telco's who will light the fibre. As part of the tender response, the MSE had to propose how they would light the fibre in the unlikely event that no telco had taken a service within the first 12 months.

Bit off topic, but are there any hints of who will win the MSE tender?

From paddypower.com
Axia - evens
Data Electronics - 2/1
66/1 the field

spongebob

Originally posted by thegills
.On the contrary, the MSE will manage dark fibre and market it to the telco's who will light the fibre. As part of the tender response, the MSE had to propose how they would light the fibre in the unlikely event that no telco had taken a service within the first 12 months.

Ahhh , thanks. Plan B is to light it but plan A is simply to rent it out and hope that market initiatives take root.

My advice to Ballina poeple was to squat the fibre actually (I was joking but not totally entirely joking if ya know what I mean) . Some information I hear indicates that the cost of rental could be extremely low if you light it yourself, a GBIC anybody?

M

thegills

Ahhh , thanks. Plan B is to light it but plan A is simply to rent it out and hope that market initiatives take root.

In addition - Plan C
The DCMNR will retain the rights over 10% of the fibre and some rack space in the Co-Location centres.

spongebob

These Co Lo centres were to have been built in the larger towns ...I remember this discussed maybe a year or more back ........

I have heard nothing since, am I right in saying that

1. The Galway Cork Limerick Telehouses are not being built and have never gone to tender.
2. There is no plan to add a co-lo facility to each MAN ...meaning that Kiltimagh and Carrick on Shannon would have one for example, there were only supposed to be 5 or 6

M

thegills

The construction of the CoLo centres was included in the main contract tender as a PC sum. Every MAN will get a CoLo centre; which is a standard telco cabin with power and rack space. In some cases there will ba an inbuilding solution which will have the same internals as the cabin. Tyrone Fabrications have the contract to supply the CoLo facilities.