I Hate Pride!

boomdogman

I'm a relaxed, confident gay man with no hang-ups about my sexuality and no urge to go back in the closet. Am I alone in finding Pride demeaning, shabby, shameful and a total let down? What is the obsession with a few self publicising attention seekers about? Drag is a cry for help not an expression of sexuality yet pride portrays all gays as effeminate glam tarts. Please stop this nonsense.
Ordinary decent Queer.
Paddy

boomdogman

And cos you have closed the moderator rules thread I 'm posing here to make a point.

"This board deals with issues of a sensitive nature"
Get real its a GLB Issues area not a nuclear power plant. Being queer is perfectly normal, why should the posts here be any more "sensitive" than anywhere else on the boards?
Paddy
Ordinary Decent Queer

Sangre

Have your own parade with down to earth, "normally" dressed gay people.

oneweb

Originally posted by boomdogman I 'm posing here to make a point.

Closet queen?



But seriously, I do feel that the Pride thing pushes upon society that gay ppl are all happy campy screamy queenies.

No offense to those who are all that btw.

boomdogman

So whats normal and why the inverted commas? The problem is that not alone does Pride perpetrate the ghetto, it reinforces the very worst stereotypes. Pride makes it harder to be gay and out, not easier.

carbonkid

i guess pride started with the whole coming out thing but now its just there to be entertaining...look daddy the funny homosexuals. sayin that i go every year as long i dont have a hangover from the nite b4.
-good pride!
-shut up mark
-ok

yellum

Originally posted by boomdogman
I'm a relaxed, confident gay man with no hang-ups about my sexuality and no urge to go back in the closet.

Gee fucking whizz. Who should we send the medal to ?

What is the obsession with a few self publicising attention seekers about?

Bah.

swiss

Right, for a start you should probably check out this discussion about the last Dublin pride parade. A parade is exactly that - a parade, and isn't necessarily a statement about an entire group of people.

Originally posted by boomdogman:

This board deals with issues of a sensitive nature

These issues may not be sensitive to you (you go gurl!) but they may be sensitive to other people. Maybe I should rewrite it to say "issues of a sensitive nature to some people" but I really think that would be stretching the limits of pedantry.

As for drag being a cry for help, I actually felt the same way in the past. I thought that people who dressed up in drag were gay men who felt that in order for them to fit correctly in the male - female mould of relationships, they would have to emulate feminism as well as they could. While I still don't fully understand transvestism, I don't think that it's necessarily sick or disturbed. I don't know any transvestites personally, but I think that being critical of a particular minority group like transvestites is hypocritical of another minority group (like gays).

Shinji

Being queer is perfectly normal, why should the posts here be any more "sensitive" than anywhere else on the boards?

Because not everyone is "a relaxed, confident gay man with no hang-ups about my sexuality and no urge to go back in the closet". And I'm sure you haven't always been thus either. I'm delighted for you that you've managed to come to this level of peace with yourself - so have quite a few people around here. That doesn't mean that you forget the fact that for a LOT of people, particularly younger people, their sexuality is a very major, and very sensitive, issue. Or did you grow up in a mysterious, magical part of Ireland where being homosexual was a normal, accepted thing for a teenager?

ixoy

I dunno, I think this article from The Onion sums it up best

WEST HOLLYWOOD, CA—The mainstream acceptance of gays and lesbians, a hard-won civil-rights victory gained through decades of struggle against prejudice and discrimination, was set back at least 50 years Saturday in the wake of the annual Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade.


Above: Participants in Saturday's Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade, which helped change straight people's tolerant attitudes toward gays.
"I'd always thought gays were regular people, just like you and me, and that the stereotype of homosexuals as hedonistic, sex-crazed deviants was just a destructive myth," said mother of four Hannah Jarrett, 41, mortified at the sight of 17 tanned and oiled boys cavorting in jock straps to a throbbing techno beat on a float shaped like an enormous phallus. "Boy, oh, boy, was I wrong."

The parade, organized by the Los Angeles Gay And Lesbian And Bisexual And Transvestite And Transgender Alliance (LAGALABATATA), was intended to "promote acceptance, tolerance, and equality for the city's gay community." Just the opposite, however, was accomplished, as the event confirmed the worst fears of thousands of non-gay spectators, cementing in their minds a debauched and distorted image of gay life straight out of the most virulent right-wing hate literature.

Among the parade sights and sounds that did inestimable harm to the gay-rights cause: a group of obese women in leather biker outfits passing out clitoris-shaped lollipops to horrified onlookers; a man in military uniform leading a submissive masochist, clad in diapers and a baby bonnet, around on a dog leash; several Hispanic dancers in rainbow wigs and miniskirts performing "humping" motions on a mannequin dressed as the Pope; and a dozen gyrating drag queens in see-through dresses holding penis-shaped beer bottles that appeared to spurt ejaculation-like foam when shaken and poured onto passersby.

Timothy Orosco, 51, a local Walgreens manager whose store is on the parade route, changed his attitude toward gays as a result of the event.

"They kept chanting things like, 'We're here, we're queer, get used to it!' and 'Hey, hey, we're gay, we're not going to go away!'" Orosco said. "All I can say is, I was used to it, but now, although I'd never felt this way before, I wish they would go away."

Allison Weber, 43, an El Segundo marketing consultant, also had her perceptions and assumptions about gays challenged by the parade.

"My understanding was that gay people are just like everybody else—decent, hard-working people who care about their communities and have loving, committed relationships," Weber said. "But, after this terrifying spectacle, I don't want them teaching my kids or living in my neighborhood."

The parade's influence extended beyond L.A.'s borders, altering the attitudes of straight people across America. Footage of the event was featured on telecasts of The 700 Club as "proof of the sin-steeped world of homosexuality." A photo spread in Monday's USA Today chronicled many of the event's vulgar displays—understood by gays to be tongue-in-cheek "high camp"—which horrified previously tolerant people from coast to coast.


Above: Members of the Laguna Beach Leatherdaddy Association make their final pre-march preparations.
Dr. Henry Thorne, a New York University history professor who has written several books about the gay-rights movement, explained the misunderstanding.

"After centuries of oppression as an 'invisible' segment of society, gays, emboldened by the 1969 Stonewall uprising, took to the streets in the early '70s with an 'in-your-face' attitude. Confronting the worst prejudices of a world that didn't accept them, they fought back against these prejudices with exaggeration and parody, reclaiming their enemies' worst stereotypes about them and turning them into symbols of gay pride," Thorne said. "Thirty years later, gays have won far greater acceptance in the world at large, but they keep doing this stuff anyway."

"Mostly, I think, because it's really fun," Thorne added.

The Los Angeles Gay Pride Parade, Thorne noted, is part of a decades-old gay-rights tradition. But, for mainstream heterosexuals unfamiliar with irony and the reclamation of stereotypes for the purpose of exploding them, the parade resembled an invasion of grotesque outer-space mutants, bent on the destruction of the human race.

"I have a cousin who's a gay, and he seemed like a decent enough guy to me," said Iowa City, IA, resident Russ Linder, in Los Angeles for a weekend sales seminar. "Now, thanks to this parade, I realize what a freak he's been all along. Gays are all sick, immoral perverts."

Parade organizers vowed to make changes in the wake of the negative reaction among heterosexuals.

"I knew it. I said we needed 100 dancers on the 'Show Us Your Ass' float, but everybody insisted that 50 would be enough," said Lady Labia, spokesperson for LAGALABATATA. "Next year, we're really going to give those breeders something to look at."

boomdogman

Ok the article from The Onion just about sums up Gay pride, a loathsome, shameful, embarrassing misrepresentation gay people. Usual reply if you make any attempt to discuss this nonsense is to attack the speakers own issues with their sexuality,hence the out and proud start on the thread.

Yes I found being gay tough but it wasn't the screaming queens who helped but the story of a young, gifted, good-looking Gaelic Football star who was openly gay while captining his county tem that helped most. I still think he is a hero.

As to the sensitive nature of the board this has nothing to do with peoples sensitivites about their sexuality but to do with your urge to appear to regulate and order the inherently chaotic medium we are using. Don't use the difficulties young people face to justify this urge. This discussion properly belongs in the charter thered but this is closed. Rules and rulers should always be open to question!!

yellum

Originally posted by boomdogman
Am I alone in finding Pride demeaning, shabby, shameful and a total let down?

No, theres always going to be gay people knocking pride.

What is the obsession with a few self publicising attention seekers about?

Pride is meant to be a celebration of being gay and a nod to those that fought long and hard and even died to establish gay rights for fellow queers in this country and worldwide.

Were you at the last pride event ? There were more than a few present. Its a parade in celebration of being gay. Some people want to celebrate this fact and some don't. Same as Patricks Day. Get. Over. It.

Drag is a cry for help not an expression of sexuality

Drag is a form of expression and fun and over-the-topness. People have a right to express themselves however they see fit. Have you ever noticed the drag acts when they finish ? They change into the usual clothes and mix with the people at tease or whatever.


yet pride portrays all gays as effeminate glam tarts.

Maybe its because these effeminate glam tarts are the only ones with balls to stand up on a stage and tell the world they're queer. They're the only ones to say "Yes I'm gay"

I'm sure theres a place( a big one) in pride for non effeminate gay men but unless they stand up and show themselves and take up the mantle they will not be seen and look like they're represented.

You may think that The drag kings and queens and mincing glamtarts are caricatures of all things queer but right now they are the only portion of the gay world thats willing to put themselves in the public eye.

Why not change this and take part in Pride 2004 ? Bring all your straight acting friends with you.

Ordinary decent Queer.


Well balanced too I see. Equal sized chips on both shoulders.

Shinji

As to the sensitive nature of the board this has nothing to do with peoples sensitivites about their sexuality but to do with your urge to appear to regulate and order the inherently chaotic medium we are using. Don't use the difficulties young people face to justify this urge.

See, this argument would be all very well if any effort had been made to prevent you from making the points you're making here. Have I deleted your post? Has yellum banned you from the board? Has Swiss edited your comments?

No. In fact, the amount of moderation which we do on this board is minimal. I realise that you're desperate to fight the power, but it might be an idea to feck off and fight it somewhere useful rather than trying to stir a pot that doesn't even exist. The comment about sensitivity exists PURELY as a plea to users to recognise that not everyone here is happy and confident about their sexuality and that we'd really prefer if people would be a bit sensitive and understanding about such situations. Sorry if this offends your sensibilities!

(Interesting that after your claims to be so relaxed, confident blah blah, you're such a fucking drama queen )


By the way, obPride.... I don't have a lot of time for the more extreme elements of it myself. As with so many things the Onion writes, there's a degree of truth in that article, and there's no doubt that the whole Pride thing can be overdone and just end up damaging people's perceptions. That said, I don't have any problem with the general concept of Pride - a day or so of carnival atmosphere focused on alternative lifestyles. I was in London on Pride weekend this year for an unrelated reason, with a group of predominantly straight friends, but we wandered down through Soho to see what was going on, and it was actually a lot of fun - a friendly, festival type of event for the open-minded.

Put Peter Tatchell in stocks and I'll be the first to throw tomatoes; and I hate the mincing screaming queen nonsense as much as the next man, believe me. But I can't really bring myself to be as down on the whole Pride concept as you are - just so long as it's less about politics and causing outrage, and more about partying and having a good time.

ixoy

I posted The Onion article, because, as usual with their articles, there's a nugget of truth mixed into the satire.

Pride's not particualrly for me. I don't feel any pride in being gay or any disgust or, y'know, whichever. However, if some people want to celebrate it, and enjoy it, let 'em. It's no skin off your nose is it? It'll make next to no impact on your life so just let 'em be and you do your things your way and they do it their way. Everyone's a winnner!!!

boomdogman

The responses vindicate both original postings in the thread. In response to a moderate critiscism of the stated sensitivity first you deny that your are bing sensitive and then resort or attempt insult. Telling me to expletive deted off is simply a childish, petulant outburst. OK I was not making the point either well or where I should but stating that this thread will be heavily moderated is the same as saying queers need a lot of watching!

As to your wonderful generosity in not deleting what I posted, that speaks of a very strange attitude to debate and comment. Delete if you wish, your restraint does not impress.

The comment on the publicity seeking was not about the people taking part in pride but about the small incestuous bunch of drag queens who seem to show up at with depressing regularity.
Glam tarts giving their wretched life meaning by screaming that they are out and proud does little to celebrate being gay or commerate those who struggled to find us that freedom. Why announce from a stage that you are gay? What is that about?

Unfortunately The Onion article is so darn close to the truth as to miss satire entirely.


Whats this str8 acting thing? So only drag queens are truely gay? This attitude is both silly, limiting and very discouraging for many young gay men.

John Player

its the one day where we get to hold our boy/girl friends hand walking down the st without having the fear of getting our heads kicked in. its like a big "**** you" to all the twits out there.

Shinji

stating that this thread will be heavily moderated is the same as saying queers need a lot of watching!

Sigh. No it's not. It's stating that this board deals with issues which are sensitive for some people and hence trolling or unhelpful posts (like gay-bashing posts, for example) won't be tolerated. In much the same way that in general you don't let raving sociopaths man the telephones at the Samaritans.

As to your wonderful generosity in not deleting what I posted, that speaks of a very strange attitude to debate and comment. Delete if you wish, your restraint does not impress.

I'm starting to realise that you're actually not very bright, so I apologise for attempting to make some relatively complex arguments in this respect earlier. All I meant to point out is that if the board WAS as heavily moderated as you seemed to be implying, then your posts would have been removed. They weren't, and they won't be - which kind of proves that you're wrong. Do you see? Hello? Glimmer of understanding?

Why announce from a stage that you are gay? What is that about?

Well, to be fair, why not? But yes, I do broadly agree. I'm saddened more than anything else by the number of gay people for whom being gay is the single most important, defining element of their personalities, and who as a result make a huge show of it. It's a bit pathetic if the only interesting thing you can find about yourself is the fact that you prefer sleeping with the same gender; but that's a far wider issue than drag queens, really.

BuffyBot

Boomdog - the answer is pretty simple. If you don't like Pride, don't pay it any attention! I'm no fan of the event either - but you don't see my crying about it. If people want to go, and have their fun, let them.

Stop being such a miserable gimp and get on with your life!

Zillah

This is turning a little hostile.

It's not like he's a religious fanatic condemning everyone. He's another queer, worried about who's going too far to represent him. He shouldn't have to go on stage and tell the whole world about himself just so that others don't assume that the more outrageous queers represent him.

My only point is this.

World= big/scary
Queers = minority
Best solution = Support each other

Be nice and don't assume everyone is out to destroy your beliefs.

boomdogman

I'm starting to realise that you're actually not very bright, so I apologise for attempting to make some relatively complex arguments in this respect earlier.

Those who disagree with you are not necessarily stupid. You ought to be ashamed of this comment. So much for the sensitivity! Its apity this has degenerated to this level because you seem to be a good and intelligent person with whom I have a lot more agreement than disagrrement.

Confusion is not the same as complexity Because sexuality is a sensitive issue does not mean that a board aimed at a particular sexual group has some deeply prickly sensitivity that must be gaurded by censors.

The nub of my argument was simple. Saying in the rules that the site was heavily moderated because of the sensitive issues involved sounds like gays are a special case, in need of protection from big bad words.
Either the site is heavily moderated as stated in the charter or it is not, as stated in the replies. Either way the statement does us no favours.

Everything I have seen since has been a justification for censorship. All justifications for censorship are poor.

Even hate postings have a value. We can post replies which, like the Dr Laura reply, become part of our mental arsenal. The young, scared or simply confused by the difficulties are not well served by ignoring the hate or blotting away the horrors we sometimes face. Here no one can hit or physically hurt us. In a safe place like this we know we can, as a vast, articulate, community answer anything the haters throw. Maybe a little more confidence and a little less prickliness?

Anyone gay finding there way here is already a hero simply for surviving long enough to get to this board.

swiss

All justifications for censorship are poor

Interestingly, I think you make a valid point here. It's strayed off the original topic somewhat, but never mind.

In a free and democratic society, people should have the right to voice opinions, no matter how controversial and (potentially) upsetting those opinions might be. However, as has been stated out numerous times (although you're new so I wouldn't necessarily expect you to have seen this), this is not a free and open democracy, it is a privately owned and operated web board. It's a bit like having a conversation in a pub. If a person begins to offend you then as much as a right that person has to that opinion, it becomes your perogative as to whether you want to listen to that person or not. If you're in a group who share that opinion, you might just tell that person to fuck off.

It's similar here. You say "the young, scared or simply confused by the difficulties are not well served by ignoring the hate or blotting away the horrors we sometimes face". We do none of the above. We just don't feel the need to throw all of this in the faces of people who have heard all of this all of thier lives. If some people go out on the street with their gay lovers and display any form of affection, in some parts of the country they would literally have the shit kicked out of them. We don't tolerate this kind of vitriol saturated posting here no more than we allow it on any kind of boards. We expect a certain standard of civility in postings, and boards has a general unwritten rule of "don't be a muppet". If it is enforced somewhat more harshly on this board, it is because that many of the unsavory types that are generally unwanted on these message boards tend to gravitate towards gay bashing.

boomdogman

OK! Thats fine and thanks for such a civilised reply. The "Heavily Moderated" line still irks but probably wont be re-phrased. The words were what prompted the first posting, later the idea that such a rule was there seemed wrong.

I have encountered far less hostility holding my (then) lovers hand in a straight pub than I did writing on this board.
In fact all we got was support. Interesting, that.

STaN

Originally posted by yellum
Gee fucking whizz. Who should we send the medal to ?

What is the obsession with a few self publicising attention seekers about?

Bah.

great way to encourage other members to the board :rolleyes:

====

its the one day where we get to hold our boy/girl friends hand walking down the st without having the fear of getting our heads kicked in. its like a big "**** you" to all the twits out there

That is exactly how i see it, and allot of people i hav talked to.

I dont see it as an over expression of the wrong message, just a bit of fun, where you can be openly gay in the city with allot of other people once a year.

solice

pride i assume started off as a celebration or a front. in the times that lgbt'ers were oppresed, discriminated against, looked down upon pride was an expression of ones own belief in themselves. it was a statement "PRIDE", i am proud of who i am.

in the last ten years we have come a long way. the culture in which we live in has become more open minded, tolerant of different things and more accepting of change. it was pride in the past that helped achieve the legalisation of homosexual sex, it was pride in the past that helped achieve a certain level of human rights. there is alot done but there is alot more to do.

homosexuals are still treated, in certain respects as second class citizens. we are not allowed to adopt, get married or have our partner legally recognised as our partner. as long as we are not truly recognised as full and equal citizens, in every respect we will have something to fight for. we will have something to march for and we will have something to be proud in.

the problem with pride today is that it is becoming lazy, it is loosing its radical approach to issues (i didnt want to use the word "radical" but it seemed most appropriate). today pride is more of a party, it is more of a celebration of what has been achieved than an attempt to show what has not been achieved.

when you look at the parade and you see drag queens and half naked men on floats you see men dressed up as women and men just acting like prats. well it was a struggle to achieve the fact that we can do that. i say well done.

i can understand why people dont like pride, the see sleaze and promiscuity. i took part in pride last year in cork (it was a soccer game, men against the women and the men won 7-0) and there was no sleaze. but then there was no parade. next year when you sit at home during pride thinking that you would rather not have anything to do with it because its full of undesirabales, think of it this way. its people celebrating, its people being happy, its people being proud in the fact that they can march down the street holding their partners hand.

pride brings the lgbt'ers into the limelight, its when we get most coverage in the news. it creates an awarness. it creates an opportunity to educate people that we are not (contrary to some beliefs) evil.

boomdogman

I still think that this is a little more than a conversation in a pub.
Your argument is simply "We own the site and we decide whats on". At least we know the ground rules now. In any case I disagree with the notion that some higher power needs to protect us. Way to like Bishop McQuaids Ireland.

swiss

Way to like Bishop McQuaids Ireland

I don't think that's a fair analogy. There is a very clear deliniation between censorship based on content and censorship based on expression.

Let's take the following two comments from (ficticious) User A.

User A: Homosexuality is wrong IMO, and this is why.....

User A: You are all SICK ****ers!! You deserve to be hung

Both comments make the same basic point, that homosexuality is wrong, immoral etc. However, the different manners of expressing that point can determine what will fly and what won't. Both statements may offend people, but (personally) I would only edit/delete the second comment above.

Moderation is exactly that - making sure that points are carried across without the need to resort to vulgarity or hatred. In many cases it is a judgement call, and hence a particular comment may fly on one board and not on another based on the character of that board. I have on occasion been accused of being too lenient and too oppressive, depending on a particular "infraction" of a boards charter.

I'm not in a position to restrict an opinion, because people have them and I don't pretend to be anyones moral guardian. However, if I find the manner of a particular posting to be vulgar, obscene or making personal attacks on another poster then I can (and do) exercise my perogative to edit/delete those comments.

Your argument is simply "We own the site and we decide whats on".

We (the moderators) don't own the site, but the administrators do. They have the power to ban IP's from the website, and can overturn any decision we make. However, this is infrequently done, as moderators are appointed based on thier character (usually assessed by their previous posts) and thier likely contribution to a board - a knowledge of a particular subject (like the moderators of the technology board) also helps.

In many cases, it has been said to people such as yourself that if you have a problem with a particular board or moderator, it is better to bring it to the attention of the administrators if you feel you have a genuine cause for concern (because bringing it to the moderators attention on the boards they moderate would of course mean that those complaints could be deleted by the moderator in question ).

I'll have to leave it at that for now, if you have any questions feel free to ask.

boomdogman

Thank you. That was a fair reply. It illuminates the board policy(even if I still disagree with it!) and thats good.
I just wish there were more people using this board.