Desperate!

jabaroon

Ok hardware guru's, here's your chance to shine!

Am at the end of my rope with my PC. Have been trying to diagnose why the PC reboots under (seemingly) heavy loads. Its sporadic and for no apparant reason.

I have tried EVERY possible thing that I can think of. Any advise appreciated.

Here's the problem:
When I play a game, or do anything that stresses the machine (even mildly), it reboots. For example, am playing Halo at the moment and I get anywhere from 5 mins to 30 mins of play time before the machine just reboots.

I have the same problem with other games and other apps such as those for encoding audio or video streams.

Have had the problem since I bought the machine (self assembled from Komplett). Have tried every diagnostic thing that I can think of, but no avail. Here's the history!

- Ran MemTest for days!...no problem.
- In case MemTest was wrong, tried running on one sim and then the other.....still reboots
- Thought that the problem might be heat. Temp figures seemed ok, but installed new fans just in case. Brought temp's down by on average 10 degrees.....still reboots.
- Mobo flashed to latest bios
- Using all of the latest drivers
- Bios settings set to IGNORE anything that requires a reboot (for example, over heating)....still reboots

Any have probably tried lots of other things that I cant remember right now!

The machine spec is:
AMD Athlon XP-2400
ABIT Mobo KD7-RAID
1 GB 3200 RAM
Asus GF4 4600 128mb
3x120gb h/d
1 dvd
1 dvd+rw
1 cd+rw
on-board nic
etc...etc..
Chieftec "BigTower" (lots a space and air flow etc..)

The only thing that I can think of is that its power related?
The PSU is 350w.

Does anyone else think that it could be a power related problem? If so, how do I definitively check?

Does anyone know of anything else that could be the cause?
What other checks or software or diagnostics could I run?

Plz help!!!
Ta,
Jab

RicardoSmith

Could be power or heat related. Likely since you've a god awful amount of stuff hnaging on that 350w PSU.

Disconnect everything, all drives cards etc, except what you need to play a 3D intensive game. Which is basically the GFX card the main HD and one CDROM drive. Try that and see if runs any longer.

If that doesn't work pull the side of the case of and see if that helps. It could also be a dodgy component like ram, run with one stick then the other to test that. TO test the motherboard you'll need another PC to test all you components in. You might even just have a dodgy PSU.

TO be honest though I'd reckon the PSU isn't up to what you're running.

CombatCow

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Could be power or heat related. Likely since you've a god awful amount of stuff hnaging on that 350w PSU.

TO be honest though I'd reckon the PSU isn't up to what you're running.

3 Hdd's
3 cd drives
TI4600
:eek:
I Concur,under powered psu more than likely.


CombatCow

Vorrtexx

as previously said, there could be too much hardware running off the PSU there. thish can be a common problem with heat too though, if you are using Windows XP.
XP will reboot the machine if it gets too hot, at least if used to on mine anyway. I was wondering for a while why it was happening, and it was heat related. my athlon 2100+ XP was getting far too hot while playing games or video editing and the machine would just reboot.

RicardoSmith

I don't think its related to XP.

I've seen the same problem with graphic cards overheating too.

Creamy Goodness

one question.

is that PSU go by the name of Qtec?

if it does i'd order a new psu right away, if it isn't try getting a lend of a higher watt psu and see if that solves it!

tribble

Strip her down.
Pull out the power and data cables from everthing but the Primary hard disk, and motherboard.

Whip out all PCI cards (leave in the gfx card)

Pull all RAM sticks 'cept one.

Test her hard.

If she fails - try different stick of RAM / and gfx card if you have.

Personally it sounds like a Power problem - I had a similar problem with a poor PSU (died upon DVD spinup) which on replacing solved the problem.

If you have a good 300 watt unit you can (I do) run a fast processor/6 HDD and 2 Optical drives.


tribble

unkel

Originally posted by Cr3m0
one question.

is that PSU go by the name of Qtec?

if it does i'd order a new psu right away, if it isn't try getting a lend of a higher watt psu and see if that solves it!

My guess is also that it is the quality of the PSU, not so much the power. For under a 100 you can get a top quality PSU (Enermax, Zalman, Antec). If that seems like a lot of money, consider the amount you have invested in your system already. The PSU will also last for years

jabaroon

Thanks all, what an amazing response. I really appreciate the help.

It sounds like the consensus is to check the PSU. So attached below is a pic of the PSU (360w). The brand would appear to be chieftec, but this is more likely to be a re-badged one from another manafacturer?

Anyone got any thoughts or experiences with this PSU and the sorta load that I have?

On the temp front, I have the cover off and am about to start hammering the system with a good auld game of Halo!

Will report back later.

Thanks again!
Jab

PS - Am posting some pix, one of the Temp's reported by WinBond and another one of the PC internals (general)

jabaroon

Pic of PSU itself...

jabaroon

And finally, WinBond H/W doctor...

jabaroon

BTW....have two chassis fan's, neither of them have the connection to the mobo for monitoring (hence showing up as off in WinBond!)

Giblet

That sure looks like its a problem with the PSU.

The 420W version of that might do.

jabaroon

Ok...reporting back on the Halo session.....
Have ran (with the cover off) for about 1 hour on halo and no crash....much to my surprise! Not really conclusive, so will give it some more bashing in the morning.....

However, does give me some hope?....when I exited from the game, the Sys temp was 52 and the CPU temp was 47 (with the cover off). Anyone got any thoughts as to the appropriatness of these numbers?....seems a bit high on the System temp?

Finally, anyone know of any software that I can run that logs (say every 10 seconds) the system and cpu temp?....if and when I get a crash, I want to be able to see what temp the system was running at?

Giblet, as regards the PSU, what makes you say that?....not that I dont believe you or anything, just wondering what reason you have for saying it looks like the PSU??

Ta again!
Jab

CivilServant

Sounds like ur rails are overloaded and can't keep up with power demands. Get urself an antec truepower. It has seperate rails that don't depend on each other for power, that should sort u out.

STaN

Windows collects information on any errors that occurs while its up and running.

Go to:

Start > Settings > Control Panel > Administrative tools > Event Viewer > System.

If there are errors in there, it will give details of them and you will be able to search the microsoft technical database and google (if needs be) for the cause and possibly solution to the problem.

It could also be your graphics card drivers. The logger will tell you.

jabaroon

Hi Stan, nope, no errors.....am really begining to think it could be a combination of head and PSU????

whosurpaddy

Originally posted by tribble

If you have a good 300 watt unit you can (I do) run a fast processor/6 HDD and 2 Optical drives.


tribble

:eek: i gotta ask...........6 hard drives?:eek:

netman

don't go blaming the psu straight away. 350w is not that small. check the heat first.

you could try removing the extra drives, pci cards etc as someone already suggested.

system temperature of 47 though spells disaster. i've never in my life seen such a high system temperature. unless your sensors are misconfigured, that's where the culprit is.

have you tried putting your hand over the exhaust fan after a while and feeling the air coming out? does it really feel that hot? i mean you'll definitely be able to feel the hot air if it's 47 degrees inside the case!

don't know what kind of fans you've put in, how you've positioned them and how effective they are or if they even work if you're getting such temperatures.

motherboard monitor can record temperatures in a log file, if you want to check if after the crash and see if there's a pattern. it can also record voltages - if those drop it could be an indication your power supply can't cope with the drain.

lastly - memtest only tests memory. there's a lot more to the system than just memory.

get prime95 and run a torture test to check the cpu. it's a very cpu-intensive task and torture-test has a set of predefined results, so even if your hardware doesn't crash it will be able to recognize if there's a calculation problem.

and then finally - get 3dmark and run it in a looping test for a long period.. 24 is good, but leaving it overnight is usually enough. it will stress your cpu, graphics card and memory.

my guess is that you've got too much heat being produced inside the case, not enough airflow, or restricted airflow with all the cables inside.

RE*AC*TOR

The heat isn't that surprising given that there are so many drives in there. Especially the hard drives can generate a lot of heat. Try getting soem cable ties in action to increase the air flow. Add another case fan or two if possible. Try to have the fans intaking air at the bottom of the case and expelling it at the top.

astrofool

i have similar spec, 3 hard drives (7200 120gb), gef4ti 4600, xp 2200+, nforce2 mobo, zip/dvd/cd-rw drive, network card, audigy, isdn card, 3 case lights and my system temp is down at 32c, cpu temp around 40 under load (thermalright slk900). This system has two intakes bottom right cooling the hard drives, and two exhaust fans behind the cpu as well as the psu exhaust fan. Lian Li PC-75 full tower.

Really sounds like a heat issue rather than psu issue.

jabaroon

Ok folks!.....its definatley (well pretty much!) a heat problem. I have been playing all of the demanding games, running all of the demanding appz and no reboots......only change made was to take the cover off of the PC.

Ok, so that leaves two problems! With the cover off, its still reporting a high system temperature (~45). As I understand it, this means:
- Either a faulty sensor, or
- ? duno ?

The air temperature coming out the back and when I hold my hand inside the case (carefully!), is DEFINATLEY not 45 degrees.

Next, what do I need to do to cool the beast down?
Dont want to add more fans coz the machine runs 24x7, and its already way too noisey with 3 fans!

Is water cooling an option?....if so, what do you folks suggest?...
In not into over-clocking, just into stable straight forward stuff!!

If I was going the water cooled route, then I would really like to have the PC run ultra quiet or even silent!!!....suggestions and options please!!

Thanks again for all your help!
Jab

Celt

Originally posted by jabaroon
Ok folks!.....its definatley (well pretty much!) a heat problem. I have been playing all of the demanding games, running all of the demanding appz and no reboots......only change made was to take the cover off of the PC.

Ok, so that leaves two problems! With the cover off, its still reporting a high system temperature (~45). As I understand it, this means:
- Either a faulty sensor, or
- ? duno ?

The air temperature coming out the back and when I hold my hand inside the case (carefully!), is DEFINATLEY not 45 degrees.

Next, what do I need to do to cool the beast down?
Dont want to add more fans coz the machine runs 24x7, and its already way too noisey with 3 fans!

Is water cooling an option?....if so, what do you folks suggest?...
In not into over-clocking, just into stable straight forward stuff!!

If I was going the water cooled route, then I would really like to have the PC run ultra quiet or even silent!!!....suggestions and options please!!

Thanks again for all your help!
Jab

I'd bet there's a setting either in bios, or in winbond to turn off the PC when the system temp gets to XXdegress C, with the faulty sensor, this is getting reported when the system is running pretty cool.

See if you can find in the manual where the system thermometer is located, and see if it's touching anything or blocked.

jabaroon

Yep, there is a setting in the BIOS, but it is definatley disabled. Will try to find the manual to check where the system temp sensor is......

RicardoSmith

Well if the temp is that hot and your not getting hot air being exhausted from the PC then that air is staying in your PC. All those components generate heat so you need more cooling than a normal PC. What you need to be doing is generating enough intake air pressure that the hot air is forced out off the case. Might be time to consider adding more intake fans more powerful fans, and perhapes even another blow hole or two.

A case should cool better with the side on not off. The fact that yours is better with the side off indicates you have a problem with the airflow and airpressure inside the case.

I'd try to have a fan blowing over every hard disk. Can you mount the HD's so that theres a fan blowing over every one or two drives?. My Antec allows me to mount a fan in fron of the drives. You could also remove one of the DVD drives and put a intake fan in its place. I'd also look for some more powerful case fans. Have a look at some of the cooling stuff here.

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/acatalog/

Celt

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Well if the temp is that hot and your not getting hot air being exhausted from the PC then that air is staying in your PC.

He said the exhaust air isnt as hot as the temperature reading said, not that it's not beinh exhausted.

A case should cool better with the side on not off.

Are ye talking bollócks? Having the side off adds a MASSIVE amount of ventilation, and will normally cool any system temperature by 10oC or more

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Celt
He said the exhaust air isnt as hot as the temperature reading said, not that it's not being exhausted.

If its cool air then thats a problem. It should be hot. He didn't answer the question clearly so its open to interpretation. I took him to read that the air isn't all that hot. I doubt that he has the equipment to accurate measure the air temps so its a subjective measurement using his hand. How accurate to expect it to be? If the airflow in the case was working he'd be getting some noticably hot air being exahusted.

Originally posted by Celt

Are ye talking bollócks? Having the side off adds a MASSIVE amount of ventilation, and will normally cool any system temperature by 10oC or more

bollócks does that have a fada?

Opening the case seriously reduces the effectiveness of your case fans. If the case cools better with side off it means your airflow inside the case is ineffective. In a properly fan cooled case taking the side of the case off should raise the temps slightly. With the side of the case on the air pressure should be increased thus cooling better as the pressure of the cold air forced in pushes the hot air out. Thats why you should more intake than exhaust fans. Its different for every case design and mix of components, all of which change the airflow inside a case significantly.

jabaroon - other things you can do is to clean up the internal cabling in the case. With that many drives you must have a lot of cabling. That will really reduce the airflow inside the case unless you have it neat and tidy. Rounded cables are another way of doing this, but there are some concerns how reliable they are. Personally I don't need to use them. Some cable ties are enough to tidy up my cables. You can also move some HDs up to the bigger drive bays which have more air flow around them, and mount them using a HD cooler. I doubt though that you have a lot those bays free. Another thing to consider is to put some holes in the case to help with exhausting the air at the top/back of the case. Some in the front/bottom of the case will aid the intake of cool air. But if your not that handy with your DIY maybe skip that!

Systems that have a lot of disks in them generally need a lot of extra cooling, and thus fans and more fans = noise. So thats someting you are going to have to live with. Incidentally you might consider replacing your fans with some much more powerful ones.