Website work issue?

Ph3n0m

Hi all

Just to give you some background on this situation

I was working on a site, on a part time basis, since I currently work full time.

Now the problem is that I was told earlier this week that I was being taken of the project as I failed to meet the deadline.

I was also told I would be given a "token amount" for the work I did - and frankly that scares me, as in my mind token = small.

I haev put in legitametly over 80 hours into this project - and while there was no official contract - should I refuse their first offer if I believe it is too low or should I consider myself lucky in getting any money at all?

Yavvy

that depends on your negoation skills. have you got anything in writing ? an email can often be considered a legal document.

can you prove you did the hours you did ?

if there was no contract and you have not been paid then surley the work you have done is still your property ?

need more details I guess but personally I wouldnt accept a "token amount" at any time ...unless you were in neglect of your duties..

marrakesh

If a deadline was set and agreed by the two parties then a token amount would be all they have to give.

Id retrieve your code asap. You need a lever to give u a better position in a negotiation scenario. In your case your leverage is the code.

Ph3n0m

Well that is the current situation, they are going to offer a token amount, but they are also looking to use my code for the next month or so, until the new developer rolls out - would that be considered a leverage position?

I also do have all emails that were sent between myself and the other party plus I do have a document detailing the amount of time I worked on the site aswell

The situation is a little more complicated then this - as the deadline was given to me - they arranged the deadline themselves, saying they needed it at a certain date - even though before I took the project on I told them my time was limited to possibly after work and also any time over the weekends I could manage.

Furthermore I did recieve an email from them concerning the deadlines last week or the week before and being honest it lit a fire underneath me and I ploughed through a lot of work - I even recieved an email from the person I was dealing, mentioning the fact that they were pleased with the work progress

Bit of a conundrum for me

Yavvy

if you didnt agree the deadline with them but they did accept your time was limited then you have huge leverage.

Do you feel you dererve more ? if so fight for it !
if they wanna play hard ball take your code and and claim intelectual property of all work you have done so far.

Ph3n0m

maybe so, when I was given the deadlines last week or the week before, i felt I could deliver but then my full time job increased the number of hours I was working on during the week, resulting in me not getting as much time as I would like to spend on the project.

When the deadline was given to me - there was no changing it, since they had already told their customers that it would be ready by then, I explained that my time was limit but I felt I could deliver and I proved myself wrong - however that site was nearly finished roughly 70 - 80% complete

This is the tricky part, they could argue that I said I would deliver, when in actuality I said I should be able to deliver - I know I am nit-picking and they are not being unreasonable. I just feel with the amount of time I spent on the project, couple with what I quoted them for the project as a whole, I think my work should be valued more then a token amount.

I am waiting for them to return my call at the moment, and will keep you posted on how it goes

Yavvy

Well Obviously I only know your side of this story but I think your getting bent over a table and rogered. Sounds like bully tatics to me. Clever ones too. They get you to do the donkey work and pay you some crappy amount.

You set the price. start high and negoiate

If the website is 70/80 % finished charge them 65% of your initial quote ( reduce 5% cause your a nice guy )

Ph3n0m

maybe so, however they are now claiming the work I have done is off now use to them, since this new developer (and I have a feeling I know the person) doesnt use the same codes as me, and yet this person was already in touch me asking how to change text in the files I already gave them (not that strange, but still makes you wonder)

This is a huge problem for me, as I got burned on another project years ago - I think from now on, I will have to give any future clients an iron clad contract and not allow them to dictate the deadline so much

And yup still waiting on that phone call

seamus

You may be better off agreeing a new deadline, at a reduced rate.

Regardless of what's going on in the rest of your life, you missed the agreed deadline, so your priority now is damage limitation.
If you can complete the project for less than the new coder they bring in, you can still make more than the 'token' amount, and they save the money, albeit with a late-delivered project.

Ph3n0m

Originally posted by seamus
You may be better off agreeing a new deadline, at a reduced rate.

Regardless of what's going on in the rest of your life, you missed the agreed deadline, so your priority now is damage limitation.
If you can complete the project for less than the new coder they bring in, you can still make more than the 'token' amount, and they save the money, albeit with a late-delivered project.

while that maybe true, there is a rumour, and it is only a rumour that the new developer is "family" to the people in charge - so the damage limitation will have to be controlled, especially since they want to use what I have already done for the next month or so.

Based on their reponse and the token amount (still waiting for the figure), I have already prepared a document with a reduced price, and new deadline - if they accept it great if not then I am up the creak with the token amount only being able to be negotiated so far.

The way I will suggest it, is that if a new developer comes along, they will still have a massive delay in roll out, especially if what they say it true - that the developer will have to start from scratch - which I highly doubt - there is alot of usuable stuff already coded.

Either way its now a waiting game for me, already rang them this morning and waiting for them to come out of a meeting and ring me back at some point today (however if I hear nothing by the afternoon, I will be ringing again)

seamus

Originally posted by Ph3n0m
while that maybe true, there is a rumour, and it is only a rumour that the new developer is "family" to the people in charge - so the damage limitation will have to be controlled, especially since they want to use what I have already done for the next month or so.

...............

The way I will suggest it, is that if a new developer comes along, they will still have a massive delay in roll out, especially if what they say it true - that the developer will have to start from scratch - which I highly doubt - there is alot of usuable stuff already coded.

There's the strange thing alright. They obviously know that it takes time for the new developer to review the code, and begin working on it. There's some formula for the net increase in time for each new developer you add to a project already in production, I just can't remember.

I see no reason why, being offered to have it completed obviously quicker than this new guy possibly can, and at a cheaper rate, they wouldn't go for it.

If they wish to use your code that you've already written, they'll have to pay you the full amount, IMO. It's still your code, and still has 80 hours of effort in it. A token amount is not acceptable, unless they decide to start from scratch.

Think of it this way - if they pay you 20% of what you're due, then use your code, and the other developer finishes the remaining 20% of the project, and gets correspondingly, 20% of the cost, then they've only paid 40% of what it should cost. Uh.....no. If this was right, then everyone would be cancelling cancelling contracts halfway and paying token amounts, while using the work already produced.

That's the way I see it anyway.

RicardoSmith

Originally posted by Ph3n0m
- I even recieved an email from the person I was dealing, mentioning the fact that they were pleased with the work progress

This gives you some more leverage. But basically you have to repair your relationship with the client. Ask them striaght out is there anyway you can agreed fresh terms to complete the work. If they say no then you've nothing to lose and can take a hard line with them. I'd detail all the work done thus, far point out that they were happy that you were doing it your spare time, and that they were happy with your work and had given you no indication that they were going to pull the contract from you. I'd include printouts of their emails to re-enforce your point. At the end of the day even though were late AFAIK I think you're entitled to be paid in full for the work you've done thus far. If the work is 80% complete then they should pay you 80% of the amount not a token which could be 5%.

Since you were working with out a formal contract both you and the client are idiots (no offense) and you both have created this situation. Lots of places like to work this way as they can screw the designer. Its pretty much standard practise. Ask anyone who's worked in the creative industry and you'll find they've all been screwed by some cowboy at one stage or another. The fact that the client didn't insist on a contract either means they didn't have a clue what they were doing either. So you may be able to scare them in to paying easily.

http://www.dgi.ie/business/quoting.asp
http://www.dgi.ie/business/pricing.asp

But at the end of the day all they want is a website and all you want is to do one. There has to be some common ground.

Ph3n0m

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
Since you were working with out a formal contract both you and the client are idiots (no offense) and you both have created this situation. Lots of places like to work this way as they can screw the designer. Its pretty much standard practise. Ask anyone who's worked in the creative industry and you'll find they've all been screwed by some cowboy at one stage or another. The fact that the client didn't insist on a contract either means they didn't have a clue what they were doing either. So you may be able to scare them in to paying easily.

Absolutely I am an even bigger idiot for insisting on one, since I have had the experience of being stung before.

The worst problem is a) they do know nothing about the internet (I was given images in CMYK for god sake ) ; b) they were never unreasonable at any time, but to pull the rug out, kinda p*sses me off, especially when I got that email praising the progress of the work

Ph3n0m

Originally posted by Ph3n0m
Absolutely I am an even bigger idiot for not insisting on one, since I have had the experience of being stung before.

The worst problem is a) they do know nothing about the internet (I was given images in CMYK for god sake ) ; b) they were never unreasonable at any time, but to pull the rug out, kinda p*sses me off, especially when I got that email praising the progress of the work

RicardoSmith

I guess the question is can you kick your own arse! I've been in the same situation before though. It hard to do two jobs at the same time. Theres always somethign unexpected that comes up.

Ph3n0m

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
I guess the question is can you kick your own arse! I've been in the same situation before though. It hard to do two jobs at the same time. Theres always somethign unexpected that comes up.

hence why I am standing at my desk, quite easy to kick one's own ass when needs be, and this is one of those times

marrakesh

Ph3n0m Dont waste time wondering what to do take all reminants of your code off any of there systems and say to them you would like to have a sit down and discuss the proposed deal regarding the amount of money you should get. Sit down with them all and attempt to hammer out a deal. Do not bring your code to this meeting (trust me..). Write out all the beneficial points to your case and show them accuratly and concisely your point of view on the matter. Make sure you are completely calm and collected and be prepared to get up from the table at the end of the meeting and walk right away. Do not let them rush you into a decision there and then (thats 1 of the reasons you should not bring the code with u).

When they attempt to rush u (trust me from my own experiences with negotiation's interviews and having studied a few tactics they will try) relax and ask them to repeat whatever they said in a slow and precise manner.

The one thing about negotiating is that they are trying to crap on you at the moment so i would say that they will offer you crap money and look for your response. Be prepared to walk out the door with nothing as that is the only way to go into a negotiation , what invaribly happens is that they will let you walk and hope that you come back.. Dont, relax and await for them to call they will... Also when he / she is offering you a price watch for a tilt of the head usually to the left maybe right if left handed its a way of knowing that they have just lied.


Do not let these cowboys take the mick out of you. You bursted your nuts and they know that thats why they want to get it cheaper.

Bring in all praise you have recieved from the work. If it is a strategic time loss to them and there client then there is no way they wont pay u a fair amount for the project they wont have time to re-develop. After you have come to some sort of agreement / disagreement sleep on it before deciding. Just get your code as its the only thing u have.

RicardoSmith

Yeah I'd pull the code too. (assuming you still have access to it) But its a 50/50 tactic. Sometimes it doesn't work.

Ph3n0m

Ok here is an update.

Finally got in touch with the boss man, and he wants me to tell him what I feel is a good "token amount".

So I did, but I also emailed him several reasons why I felt the figure was justified.

Its now a wait and see procedure.

And removing the code, nah, would not do that unless things became seriously messed up, which, thankfully, they are not