C&C 2: Tiberian Sun - NON QUAKE

Creeper

Opinions?

At first glance I thought it was exactly the same as the first game, but with fancy graphics/stuff. I suppose that it's unfair that I compare it with Starcraft. Starcraft being the best RTS game out now (no Lord Khan, Total Annihilation was gay, although I haven't tried TA: Kingdoms yet).
Starcraft focuses more on resource management I think, and the C&C games focused more on using your units properly and making well planned raids.
I haven't tried TS multiplayer yet (evaluation copy but I'd say it's good crack, will it beat Starcraft though??

Erisian

Okay, my opinions on this are probably different from most... I think that Dark Reign is still the best RTS out there, although TA:Kingdoms I haven't played. C&C 2 is almost as good as DR in terms of the basic engine, but they left out the damage tolerance, independence and pursuit range unit controls, which were such a cool thing in DR. No more screaming futilely at your units not to attack something, or frantically clicking to send badly damaged ones to the back, and so on.
But anyway: C&C 2 looks pretty good, the graphics re good and the units seem well-rounded enough. And the touch of having your units show where they're going when you select them is very cool.
I don't really know what it's like multiplayer yet.
My opinion is, it's a good game, but it took far too long to produce, they spent far too much on the cutscenes, and it's a shame that the creators of such a seminal game have missed a chance to really radically bring the genre forward.

It's still fun though.

Carnate

My Opinion,

C&C Tib Sun falls way below the Red Alert. When u open the box a bug report falls out and u know that there is going to be a problem, ie if u have more then 1 cd-rom u are in for a bit of a problem. The new units are nothing more then an addon from red alert, and as such for me the 3 year wait was a very big let down.

My Opinion.

Hobbes

The AI kind of sucks as well. I mean if you saw one enemy engineer standing beside each of your buildings, you think you'd let them stay there until the enemy was able to steal 6 buildings simultanously.

Chubby

Creeper. You can play Tiberian Sun over the net through kali. Tried it earlier and it works over LANs so what's stopping yas playing multiplayer?

Now, the game itself is crap. NOD is way too powerful compared to GDI. They get 3 types of nukes, a multi-warhead missile, a hunter seeker and a toxic gas missile. Basically you can bunker in and keep on hitting your enemy with those weapons and they are unstoppable. Not that you need to anyway because NOD gets units like the artilery tank which is just a ground version of battleships for Red Alert. They get to build cloak generators which can cloak their entire base plus any units within the cloaking radius. They get that big laser yoke for base defence. Game balance is messed up basically and if you play NOD you can't loose. Unless you're really really crap.

Game AI has problems too. Build two refineries and you harvestors always go to the one furthest from the patch of tiberium it's mining. If that refinery is occupied but the other one is free and that harvester is next to it, it'd still stop and wait for the 1st refinery. Units don't shoot back at enemies within visual range unless you tell them to or tell them to guard whatever structure. Playing skirmish against computer is pointless because they cheat. They don't need to scout your base and even if you have fog of war on and have a cloak generator the computer would still know which key building to target those missiles and ION cannon.

Control system is a lot of crap. Left click for everything is annoying. The waypoint might be an improvement from other C&C titles but the Starcraft system is still way better than it as you can assign different route for different groups of units instead of all follow the same waypoints and hope enemy don't see you and ambush you.

The units are flipping tiny and cartoony. The terrains looks just like C&C except when the dynamic lighting comes into play like the ION cannon blast etc. 3 flipping years and they couldn't think of more new original units. 3 years and they couldn't makes a better game than C&C. It's the same thing. Tiberian Sun to C&C is what Quake3 is to Quake. It sucks and i have no idea what I just babbled about because this input field is tiny. No i will not scroll up and read what I just wrote. Well, cyas.

---

You gonna to finish that?
*munch*munch*


[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 31-08-99).]

[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 31-08-99).]

-=Raven=-

Me and Kegs had a bash at it there through Kali , and it looked mighty impressive (but we have only started the single player anyway so we couldn't do much)

In reply to Chubby : I'm rite new to it , only 3/4 way through GDI single player , and I think its really class. the control system is a bit iffy alright , Starcrafts is better , but it does the job.

Its a lot better than Red Alert in all fairness , and there are a decent amount of new units. The terrain is good , 3D-ish , and the whole atmosphere of the game is excellent. I have a feeling this will take off , cuz it really is good.

Maybe NOD are a bit more powerful , if that is the case , it'll be fixed with patches , like Starcraft.Its only out a week or two , no one has played it on the net (cuz we all got the hacked versions) and we only realised you could play it through kali tonight.

Actually , just looking back at Chubbys post there.You think he'd give it a fu<king chance no ? He has the game about 2 mins and thinks its utter sh1te cuz he's probably rubbish at it. The computer cheats ? - no chubby my son , you have to attack the computer there in order to kill it. Pff , all lame excuses he has for trying to down a good game.Ye dont know what your at.

[This message has been edited by -=Raven=- (edited 31-08-99).]

Shinji

I wasn't initially impressed with TS, but god have I grown to love it. Yes, it's more of the same - if you want really innovative RTS, BattleZone 2 and Dark Reign 2 are both on the way - but as a long-time C&C player, you quickly start to notice improvements and after a few hours play, you realise how hard it would be to go back to Red Alert or the likes.... back to non-deformable terrain.... back to static waypoints... back to units moving across the landscape and no way of telling where they were going...

NOD and GDI are properly balanced for the first time in the game, although they do require a slightly different approach to play. Unit AI is passable - not up to the standards of Dark Reign, which is still probably the best, if the most difficult, RTS out there, but not a cause for complaint either. And the computer AI doesn't cheat... it's just very, very clever.

In fact, my only real gripe is that you can't repair deformed terrain by paving over it. That can really **** up your base, that can.

Ja,
Rob

ButcherOfNog

here comes chubby and yet again everything is crap, q3 is crap, ts is crap, perhaps may i venture that your pov is crap?

Asuka

Yup

Dark Reign rocks.
Dark Reign 2 will hopefully kick ass seriously.
I cant wait.
Im drooling.
Shinji could u make me another copy of dark reign?

Asuka

Shinji

I thought I left my copy at home.....?

Oh well, I'll have a hunt for it. I ain't playing it atm anyway, got TS to keep me busy

And BoN - Chubby has a point about Q3 (I can't stand the bloody thing either, boring piece of crap that it is), and as for TS, he's not the only person who hates it. I like it a lot but opinions are very divided on it generally.

He's entitled to his opinion.

Ja,
Rob

Hecate

the thing about TS is:

yes, its great, theres some cool effects, your soldiers actually have a brain for once (shock horror)...plus they get promoted . Nice terrain touches, like the way you can see vehicles moving up and down hills. Some cool new units and nice resoloutions. Oh yeh the waypoints rock

but...its also not great. From the point of view of someone who was an avid C&C player of both the original, and Red Alert plus all its crappy addons (****in aftermath multiplayer CD checks...what were they thinking???).

Theres nothing new. Westwood really havent added anything beyond cosmetic changes (apart from waypoints and improved ai..although the harvesters are still thicker than two short planks) . Yeh mabye theyre trying to stick to a formula that works, but they could have added so much to that formula. As I play it im thinking, christ, they couldve done that better, or wow that wouldve been much nicer if theyd done it this way.

I suppose for someone who's not into C&C in a big way, then it might impress and be a passable game. But from the point of view of fans of the genre, its a huge letdown.

JaneyMackers

I just got Tib Sun and i must say i think its great. Its not been changed a hell of alot from the other two. But hey that good in a way as it still fells like C&C. The extra options like waypoints and the like are very handy in planning attacks.

Will someone be getting a battleclan going??

Canaboid

Very Disappointing

[This message has been edited by Canaboid (edited 31-08-99).]

Monty - the one and only

Thought it was brill when I first saw it, sure the garphic of some of the units look cartoony! But since when did we start playing games just for graphics, if you want to do that go play trespasser. Playablity is where it counts, and TS has plenty to spare.

I still think its brill.

Monty

SheroN

Didn't play the game...must say the box is mighty.

Kali

cloakable buildings!
hehe

-=Raven=-

Yeah , great game , but...I just played a skirmish there against the comp, the ai is really fu<ked up. They find you simple , no scouting involved , and then just ****ing pummle you to the ground. But who cares about that , we'll all be play against each other anyway eh?

Yeah , the box is nice alright. One other nice thing about it is the lighting, them voxels do the trick , make the landscape ect really class.The NOD cyborg looks really sad.And the Mammoth Tank 2 ? , whats the deal with that?? , it looks more like a big mechanical dog than a tank. But these are only small things wha .

Kegser

Yeh, Bubble Bobble is deadly alright.

Kegs.

Chubby

Okay, it might not suck as much as I make it out to be but surely this does not take 3 years to complete. There are very subtle improvements and unless you are a die hard C&C fan you won't notice or care about them. Notice I do play it . I just expected this to be a lot better.

Shinji:
I don't see how NOD and GDI are balanced. NOD clearly has the better units and weapons. What's good about GDI? Tell me. Gwan.

---

You gonna to finish that?
*munch*munch*


[This message has been edited by Chubby (edited 31-08-99).]

-=Raven=-

Bubble Bobble

If it came down to it, I'd actually prefer playin Bubble Bobble. But thats me, eh.

Creeper

He's right, Nod are much better.
But you can't target the Hunter-Seeker remember. And GDI get Hunter-Seekers too.
I've cleared it now with GDI and Nod, and it was ****ing simple. The AI is useless, it still sends small groups of units at you.
One thing I did notice however, is that it will nuke a section of your perimeter defence and follow up with airstrikes/apc drops, still...you see them coming and mash then.
I got Dark Reign yonks ago, and thought it was utter rubbish! This was after I'd gotten into Starcraft though, and I think Starcraft is the KING.
Total Annihilation - this was a good laugh, but overall just to cluck and complicated. I mean - 200 units or something?? ffs! And the 2 sides you could pick....were exactly the same for all intents and purposes.
TA: Kingdoms - haven't played this yet....heard it's good though.

My main gripe is.....consider this:
You are one of the fat chainsmoking programmer lads working for Westwood coding TS. You think to yourself, how do I make this game an improvement on the first one?
Well....one way is to look at other games and what they did right (yeah yeah...I know....ripping stuff off, unoriginal etc). WHY OH WHY did they not look at Starcraft....figure out what makes it rule so much and then improve on it!?!
Starcraft is just more fun....there aren't that many units...but the ones it does have are all varied and offer many combinations. The marines in the bunkers mowing down Zerglings is just sooo cool!
But anyway...I digress!!

TwoShedsJackson

Speaking as a non-player of RTS games (usually), I have to say that I really like Tiberian Sun. However, the last RTS i bought was C&C, so i missed all the addons etc. that mean that TS hasnt actually advanced the whole genre much.

As a fairly impartial player, therefore, TS rocks, Shinji, yer a dead man in multiplayer when i have my ISDN back

Erisian

Way off topic now, onto defending Dark Reign...
Creeper, why didn't you like it? It has a bunch of really amazing things that the other RTS games don't have:
-Setting unit Damage tolerance: handy, saves you the hassle of trying to pick a near-death unit out of a crowd to tell it to retreat
-Setting unit independence: if you want them to get straight from A to B without picking stupid fights, no problem. If you want them to go somewhere but pick off stray enemies on the way, no problem. That rocks.
-Setting unit pursuit range: again, really handy, your units won't wander off by themselves into the enemy base after being shot at by a single unit.
-Selection stuff: sounds trivial, but being able to easily select _only unilts of a certain type_ out of a crowd, or from the entire map, is very handy.
-The AI was pretty good. Had problems that I think all the RTS games have, but it compares well to the others I've seen.

All these things made better control of your units possible, and that's rally important in RTS. The more control you have, the more skilful it is and the less it comes down to units acting idiotically.

Graphically I think it's pretty good - not amazing, and the graphics were toned down, but it's the gameplay that matters.

There are a few problems with it: there aren't enough units, and there was only one expansion. A nice pile of new units and expansions would have done the game a lot of good. Also, the game engine supports the concept of promoted / veteran units, but they didn't get around to implementing it. They may have gotten some of the unit balance wrong, making it too easy to kill opponents with an early rush, but again that's a problem for lots of games. Lastly, the FG Shockwave is overpowered IMO.

But it's a brilliant, underappreciated game, one of the very few that I've returned to over and over (the only others I can think of being GTA and Quake)

Shinji

Castor.... don't bet on it, bioch

With regard to Starcraft... I found it very good fun initially, but it's way too prone to deadlocks when a player turns turtle. And anyway, it's got like Q1 - loads of people obsessing on it like it's the One True Game and ultimately making it pretty boring for the rest of the world.

Ja,
Rob

Dupre

TS is a good game. There are some serious AI issues that need to be patched tho'.

There really should be more there graphically for the amount of time that it
has taken them.

Oh, and I agree totally with what Shinji just said. I still don't like Starcraft multiplayer very much ..

[This message has been edited by Dupre (edited 01-09-99).]

Dr_Teeth

Erisian - Starcraft has all those features, they're so standard we don't even point them out.

As for TS, it just bites in multiplayer. The AI is just silly, it knows where all your buildings are without scouting them, and then just send missile after missile at you, it's daft. The control method is woeful. Hello? Second mouse button? Ever heard of it?

Teeth.

Creeper

Erisian - I'll dig out Dark Reign and give it a second chance.

Shinji - turtling is a good way to lose. There are never any deadlocks in Starcraft, if someone turtles you have a multitude of ways to dig them out (think dark swarm/plague/ensnare - and that's just Zerg).

And I've been playing Starcraft for ages and it still doesn't bore me. There's always something new to try. Starcraft and Quake3 are all I play now.

Erisian

Creeper - I've never played Dark Reign over the net (only LAN) so if you want a game, sometime, mail me and we might be able to arrange it.

Dr_Teeth - this may seems like a stupid question, but I've only played Starcraft in very small snippets, and so never saw any sign of the features I praised in Dark Reign. Does it _really_ have the ability to set unit independence, damage tolerance and pursuit range? If so, I'll have to go back to it...

Bunny

What is it? 2 million people play starcraft over battlenet every weekend? and its been out for ages. Tib Sun looked good when I saw it first, but its really just higher res c&c...bold

Dr_Teeth

Erisian:

damage-tolerence - more limited then what you mentioned, some units will retreat automatically it they are under fire and can't retliate.

unit independance - you can move a unit by right-clicking on the destination, in which case it will ignore enemy fire and just go there, or you can right-click on an enemy unit and the unit will move to within range and attack it alone, again ignoring enemy units, OR you can do an attack move, where the unit heads for it's destination engaging enemy units along the way.

pursuit range - units can be set to patrol an area, only engaging enemies they run into, or can be set to hold an area, which means they only attack enemy units that come within range and don't move themselves, left on it's own a unit will engage enemy units that come within range and will usually give chase (rather irritating at times, but units are usually under an order of some kind)

Selection stuff - left-click selects/deselects a unit, shift left-click selects/deselects more units. Right clicking on another friendly unit sets the unit to follow, right-clicking on scenary, buildings etc moves teh unit, right-clicking on enemy units sets the unit to attack. Double-clicking on the unit selects all units of the same type on-screen up to a maximum of 12.

Teeth.

Monty - the one and only

Whats it like in Multi-Player, not skirmish mode. Great or sh!te?