The magic roundabout: Red Cow able for 120 trams 'every hour'

Qadhafi

The magic roundabout: Red Cow able for 120 trams 'every hour'
The Irish Independent
Treacy Hogan
04-November-2003
**************************

UP to 120 Luas trams an hour can pass through the notorious Red Cow roundabout without adding to the gridlock, it was claimed yesterday.

And the Dublin Transportation Office (DTO) insists there is absolutely no need to put the Luas "on stilts" at a cost of €50m as suggested by Transport Minister Seamus Brennan.

Recent high tech computerised modelling by the agency found that the trams would be able to cross the gridlocked roundabout on a series of sliproads at a rate of one every 60 seconds, in each direction, to coincide with the traffic signal cycle.

This would allow 60 trams an hour in each direction, a total of 120 trams.

And because of traffic light timings, it won't adversely affect cars and trucks which it cuts across on two sliproads, the think-tank claimed.

There will be time for the trams to pass across the sliproads before normal traffic would even be affected, the DTO said.

"It will go through the roundabout with a couple of seconds to spare," it said.

The DTO insisted the findings had recently been confirmed by detailed computer animated modelling showing traffic and Luas trams crossing the roundabout. The agency maintained the trams would not further delays at the country's busiest junction.

The Luas trams would not be queueing in a line of cars and trucks, it also claimed.

John Henry, DTO chief executive said that instead, the trams would be going across the traffic.

Mr Brennan, who has described the Luas crossing the Red Cow Roundabout as "a mess", is due to decide shortly on whether to order the Luas trams to be elevated on a dedicated flyover.

Qadhafi

looks like there might not be total confusion at the Red Cow in light of the computer modelling.

Is the junction still getting the cloverleaf junction with all the flyovers?

Is the Luas €50million flyover totally necessary in light of the above?

sligoliner

Is the Luas €50million flyover totally necessary in light of the above?

of course not. The trams are not the problem - the cars and lorries and the skangers who take the company van home at the weekend and use it a lesiure motoring are the problem. Drivers are going to have to get used to the fact that the city is not theirs and theirs alone.

Much of the talk you hear about the LUAS in the media is the same hysterical hyperbole that was branded about by the Evening Press/Evening Hearld newspaper in the early 80's when the DART was being built.

I can remember an editorial claiming that people living next to the DART would be driven mad by the constant noise and that their houses would colaspe by the vibration of the trains and how a motorway along Sandymont Strand was the real transport solution for Dublin.

LUAS will be a huge sucess - end of story.

sceptre

Originally posted by Qadhafi
to coincide with the traffic signal cycle

Someone would get a quick lesson on why running red lights isn't a good idea.

Part of me is thinking "Good"

FinoBlad

they should post an animation of this computer model on the web, I have my doubts this will work and would like to see it.

Borzoi

Originally posted by sligoliner
and the skangers who take the company van home at the weekend and use it a lesiure motoring are the problem.

Care to back this up, or would you like to retract the insult to many working people?

Winters

The whole arguement about the madness of the Redcow junction would still be raging whether the Luas is going through it or not.

It was poorly underdesigned and badly modified. It is the traffic that gave it the mad cow name.

Free flow is the way to relieve all the problems, the NRA designs for it exist. The cost and planning are the only things holding it back.

Pump the money in Seamus..

Qadhafi

here, are they going ahead with all those flyovers for the crazy cow roundabout or is it just speculation?

The row over the LUAS is just the trouble caused building the thing. Once its running it will be a different story. Any alternative to the car can only be a good thing.

They cant ditch the Métro now. It has to go ahead as well, building any infastructure is bound to cause problems.

star gazer

If they can get a computer model up and running that would mean that 100plus trams an hour would go seamlessly through the roundabout why don't they have a computer model right now to get the roundabout flowing more efficiently?

Victor

Originally posted by Qadhafi
here, are they going ahead with all those flyovers for the crazy cow roundabout or is it just speculation?

Some will definitely be done. They are slating €700m(?) for M50 improvments.

Bee

Computer model?

Presumably constructed of Lego? Remember Garbage in = Garbage out.

I wonder do they take into account the forthcoming squashed cyclists (at least if our kamikaze cyclist friends continue to ignore red lights pedestrians cars alongside the non-policing of our Boys and Girls in Blue) creating delays?

and the skangers who take the company van home at the weekend and use it a lesiure motoring are the problem

I would suggest instead of insulting compliant tax payers who contribute vast amounts in various motoring tax's that you should take a hard look at the failure of our bench mark seeking so called "Traffic Engineers" and other DCC failures before you throw the word "skangers" around.

Bee

Capt'n Midnight

amber gamblers aside the big problem will be the same as happens on the palmerstown roundabout (m50).

There's a whole load of inconsiderate bastards who don't follow the rule of "not entering a junction unless your exit is clear".
Result when traffic is heavy those wasters heading south and then west just block the junction for those heading east. The yellow lines help a little maybe... Overall 'cos they block much of the traffic for maybe a third of the green light time...

The same type of driver will also try to keep in their convoy and if they don't clear the junction they may block the tram. The point is the tram is long enough to block ALL the lanes - so basically the roundabout grid locks for half of the traffic light cycle.

Victor

The current proposal is for only 24-40 trams an hour - within the model's capacity, even if is out by a factor of 3 to 5.

Originally posted by Bee
I would suggest instead of insulting compliant tax payers who contribute vast amounts in various motoring tax's that you should take a hard look at the failure of our bench mark seeking so called "Traffic Engineers" and other DCC failures before you throw the word "skangers" around.

Dublin City Council has no responsibility for the Red Cow roundabout, so get off your high horse.

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
The point is the tram is long enough to block ALL the lanes - so basically the roundabout grid locks for half of the traffic light cycle.

A tram would be capable of block a single ramp yes (and freeflow lane if there is one). But the tram would likely cross the ramp in under a second.

Capt'n Midnight

RE: But the tram would likely cross the ramp in under a second.

Only if it's exit hasn't been blocked by some muppet that doesn't clear the junction (see also Newlands Cross traffic heading north in the evenings blocks traffic heading east)

Victor

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Only if it's exit hasn't been blocked by some muppet that doesn't clear the junction (see also Newlands Cross traffic heading north in the evenings blocks traffic heading east)

At forty tonnes the tram can clear him in well under a second.

Sarsfield

Every tram (and bus for that matter) should be equipped with a digital camera for collecting evidence of muppetry by other road users.

These photos can be passed on to the authorities for the processing of the ensuing heavy fines.

They should also be posted on a 'hall of muppets' on the www.

Bee

Dublin City Council has no responsibility for the Red Cow roundabout, so get off your high horse

Apologies for not making myself clear, in this case ,the BSE infected "Traffic Engineers" who designed the Red Cow and DCC for screwing up everything else.

Bee

De Rebel

120 per hour? 2 per minute? With no impact on traffic? I'd examine the code in that computer model very carefully. Doesn't sound very likely to me.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Bee
Apologies for not making myself clear, in this case ,the BSE infected "Traffic Engineers" who designed the Red Cow and DCC for screwing up everything else.

Bee

ISTR that it wasn't Dunlin County Council (as it was at the time) or its Road Traffic Engineers that were responsible. In fact, the original plans were for a more complex junction, the Dept of the Environment were the ones who simplified it and put a roundabout on the Country's busiest National Primary route, thereby causing the problem. They saved some pittance at the time by doing so.

Can I ask another question. I have a vague recollection of talk about an M7 running paralell to the N7 for much of the current Nass Dual Carriage way. I remember this being touted at an early stage (in the late 80s) as a solution to the red cow. I think the junction numbering on the M50 even has a gap allowing for the "new" M7/M50 junction. Anybody recall this?

Bard

Originally posted by Victor
Some will definitely be done. They are slating €700 for M50 improvments.

Oh good.

Seven hundred euros.

That'll probably buy a few more "Stop driving so fast, you lot!" signs.

Quatre Mains

I grew up in Clondalkin and still use that poxy roundabout a few days a week. here are my thoughts on this mess...

1. Creating extra stoppages will further clog the M50 ramps ( which despite the extra lanes are still full at rush hour with 15 min delays southbound).

2. In Clondalkin at least, f-all people have access to the Luas. Pedestrian lanes between neighbouring estates leading to the Naas road are all blocked (Monastery Rise-Floraville/Floraville-Newlands etc. etc) greating increasing the walking time to the stops. The Luas goes nowhere near most of the towns major population centres. I don;t know other areas well enough to comment on them, sorry.

3. Even if it can supposedly take 30 trams easy now(yeah right), what are the predictions for 10 years down the road etc.?

- I think a free park-and-ride car park near Newlands Cross would be a huge booster for the Luas, and would reduce a lot of traffic at the roundabout. There is a site(for sale as well I think) beside McCormac McNaughtons which would be perfect. Why free park-and ride hasn;t been set up all over the routes is completely inexcuseable.

- Irish traffic projects to date have shown a lack of regard for future traffic projections (the 2-lane M50 itself being the most obvious). Spending the money now on keeping the Luas out of traffics way will avoid the need for future revamps and the like.

neil

Andrew Duffy

M50 Junction 8 is indeed for the M7, if it ever gets built. I think I can see the alignment on a map as well; it looks like it would follow the Cammock river for the most part. I think that the motorway would rip the heart out of Clondalkin if built, just like urban motorways in the UK do.

Victor

Originally posted by brocklanders
2. In Clondalkin at least, f-all people have access to the Luas. Pedestrian lanes between neighbouring estates leading to the Naas road are all blocked (Monastery Rise-Floraville/Floraville-Newlands etc. etc) greating increasing the walking time to the stops. The Luas goes nowhere near most of the towns major population centres. I don;t know other areas well enough to comment on them, sorry.

I imagine at least a shuttle / feeder bus from Clondalkin Main Street / Orchard lane to the Red Cow stop.

Originally posted by brocklanders
3. Even if it can supposedly take 30 trams easy now(yeah right), what are the predictions for 10 years down the road etc.?

We need not bother ourselves ... Bertie and Charlie will be out of office by then. Yes, it will need to grow in line with usage.

Originally posted by brocklanders
I think a free park-and-ride car park near Newlands Cross would be a huge booster for the Luas, and would reduce a lot of traffic at the roundabout.

There will be a park and ride on the Red Cow site for a few hundred cars. They are expecting problems at the Sandyford site though with people (who work in the industrial estate and won't be using Luas) already wanting to park their for free.

Originally posted by brocklanders
There is a site(for sale as well I think) beside McCormac McNaughtons which would be perfect. Why free park-and ride hasn;t been set up all over the routes is completely inexcuseable.

Is that the site on the Clondalkin side of the N7? Possibly way too expensive. I was quoted £1m/acre on it in 1999....

Originally posted by Andrew Duffy
M50 Junction 8 is indeed for the M7, if it ever gets built. I think I can see the alignment on a map as well; it looks like it would follow the Cammock river for the most part.

The alignment is along the railway / canal corridor. An alternative would have been to make the Naas Road 3/4 carriageway (2 express, 1/2 local), but the went the crazy 3-lane route instead.