Memorial to Waterford WW1 "Boy-Soldier" too "British" say Workers Party

mike65

A proposed memorial to a 13 year old who was the youngest soldier to die in World War One is being opposed by ther Workers Party in Waterford. John Condon was killed at Ypres in 1915 and is buried in a
Flanders feild. The WP have described the memorial
at militaistic offensive and "very British" saying thier was nothing Celtic or Irish about the proposal.

WP councillor Davy Walsh told the Waterford City Council that Condon had died not to fre nations but for British imperialism. He said public funding should not be used to recognise the British Army in Ireland....

Y'know sometimes I have to check my calender to be sure its the 21st century. I really think the stickies
do themselvs no favours playing the anti-British/imperalist card in this era.

Nationawide on RTE 1 has a feature on Condon tomorow night.

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan

I see their point in so far as the memorial, or rather the open meaning of the memorial is nothing to do with 'freeing nations' and so on but I as a real socialist think it is fitting as a reminder to the working peoples whether of Ireland or whatever country that never again should they become involved in a war for the sake of imperialism because we have seen the results throughout the 20th Century of imperialism, neo- or classical.

Mark

If the area want's the monument, build it.
If they don't want it, don't build it.

Jaysus if the WP don't come off as a bunch of whingers here. It won't cause them any harm if it's built.
They may start screeching and pulling hair over the DIED FOER TEH BRITS angle if the monument goes up, but I'm betting the average Joe will see it as it is. A 13 year old Irish boy who died in a rather messy battle.

Can't do anything without it being political these days grumble mutter mutter...

spanner

Originally posted by Mark
If the area want's the monument, build it.
If they don't want it, don't build it.

Jaysus if the WP don't come off as a bunch of whingers here. It won't cause them any harm if it's built.
They may start screeching and pulling hair over the DIED FOER TEH BRITS angle if the monument goes up, but I'm betting the average Joe will see it as it is. A 13 year old Irish boy who died in a rather messy battle.

Can't do anything without it being political these days grumble mutter mutter...

here here

this was a young lad who seemly joined the war to get a pair of boots. As much as sinn fein and the socialist party may not like it many working class people joined the british army

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Spanner
this was a young lad who seemly joined the war to get a pair of boots. As much as sinn fein and the socialist party may not like it many working class people joined the british army

At least get your facts right Spanner. I am a member of the Socialist Party, have been for years and the view of the SP is that men and women died fighting for the British Empire and you can't change it BUT it is important to honour their memories as a reminder to future generations and comrades in the socialist struggle that we must never again fight for the ruling classes except when we need to defence what little benefits we have under bourgeois democracy, such as happened during the Second World War.

secret_squirrel

Who the hell do polictical parties of any stripe think they are??

Dont try to twist his sacrifice to your own polictical ends - they died for their own reasons - not yours.

We should respect his sacrifice for what ever reasons he had - dont demean it by adding your own spurious interpretations to it.

Hear Hear again mark

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from secret_squirrel
Dont try to twist his sacrifice to your own polictical ends - they died for their own reasons - not yours.

We should respect his sacrifice for what ever reasons he had - dont demean it by adding your own spurious interpretations to it.

Wrong. They died for the reasons of the ruling classes; if the war hadn't been for the interests of the British ruling class, there would have been no war, regardless of the individual motives for 'signing up.'

secret_squirrel

You've pretty much proved my point. Unlike you and your ilk, most of us can respect that someone gave their life without either condoning or codemning the circumstances that caused that sacrifice. Its about respect for the dead not using them for your sordid little political games - nothing more - nothing less.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from secret squirrel
Unlike you and your ilk

What an intellectual and open minded way to look at things.

Quoted from secret squirrel
most of us can respect that someone gave their life without either condoning or codemning the circumstances that caused that sacrifice

That is just glorification of death not sacrifice - unless there are reasons for the death, which are more often that not political, sometimes socio-economic, which made it a sacrifice. For example, Leonidas and the 300 Spartans who died at Thermopylae were a waste of men unless you consider that their actions saved Greek culture from the steamroller that demolished the Lydian Empire and the Egyptians.

Do you glorify the sacrifice that the Waffen SS made in the defence of Germany from the allies and soviets? I don't. Which proves my point that the political circumstances surrounding such death are important if the whole issue is not to become a right wing glorification of war and 'sacrifice' for the sake of itself.

Quoted from secret squirrel
Its about respect for the dead not using them for your sordid little political games

You may act the anti-political hack all you wish but it does not escape the fact that war and politics and therefore the sacrifice made through war are inexorably bound together.

spanner

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
At least get your facts right Spanner. I am a member of the Socialist Party, have been for years and the view of the SP is that men and women died fighting for the British Empire and you can't change it BUT it is important to honour their memories as a reminder to future generations and comrades in the socialist struggle that we must never again fight for the ruling classes except when we need to defence what little benefits we have under bourgeois democracy, such as happened during the Second World War.

well Éomer of Rohan i was a member of the Socialist workers Party for some time but left when i realised that they were completely and utterly removed from the real life. there theorys do not have any relevants to modern day life(i am not trying to say that the Socialist workers Party and the Socialist Party are the same).
i would agree with the socialist party saying we should "honour there memories". i am from wexford and i wore a poppey(pure irish catholic background, mad finna fail family) i wore to honour my great granfather who fought in the great war. i understand you are only explaining the sp views, but all this nonesense about fighting the ruling class and this thing you call the "bourgeois democracy". the days when you could define the working class from the bourgeois class are long gone.

getting back to the point, most irish men went because it was a chance of adventure,others might have gone for the defence of small nations, the point is many men and women from all over europe were in this war and suffer terrible things, i think the only way we will remember things people and hopefully not repeat such wars again is to build such statues in there memory to act as a reminder of these peoples suffering.
the socialist movement cant see this because its so dettached from "REAL LIFE", they only have there own narrow views if it doesnt conform to there set notion of the world then it cant be right.

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
Do you glorify the sacrifice that the Waffen SS made in the defence of Germany from the allies and soviets? I don't. Which proves my point that the political circumstances surrounding such death are important if the whole issue is not to become a right wing glorification of war and 'sacrifice' for the sake of itself.

Actually I dont have a problem with respecting (not glorifying) the people of the Waffen SS who died fighting for what they believed in - no matter how much I think what they believed in (as an organisation) was abhorrent. And Im damn sure some of them were just ordinary people caught up in a war.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
my point that the political circumstances surrounding such death are important if the whole issue is not to become a right wing glorification of war and 'sacrifice' for the sake of itself.

But unlike a lot of leftwingers some of us are quite prepared to respect the sacrifices others made without using it as a political football.

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
You may act the anti-political hack all you wish but it does not escape the fact that war and politics and therefore the sacrifice made through war are inexorably bound together.

Thank you I will - I despise anyone who seeks to use something like this for political gain.
war and politics bound together - absolutely.
politics & war and sacrifice bound together - rubbish. Its the personal reasons for that sacrifice that are important not the actions of nations - whether they are engaged in a war or not.

Why do some socialists feel the need to connect everything with their politics - its immature - the political equivalent of a small child saying 'look at me! look at me!'

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from spanner
well Éomer of Rohan i was a member of the Socialist workers Party for some time but left when i realised that they were completely and utterly removed from the real life. there theorys do not have any relevants to modern day life(i am not trying to say that the Socialist workers Party and the Socialist Party are the same).

I am extremely familiar with the socialist workers party and they are nothing more than a bunch of cranks who couldn't ground their thinking in marx, lenin or trotsky if their lives depended on it, not to mention being the most irresponsible, immature and plain idiotic people I have ever seen call themselves socialists. If you want grounding for this, I will happily provide it in a different thread.

Quoted from spanner
but all this nonesense about fighting the ruling class and this thing you call the "bourgeois democracy". the days when you could define the working class from the bourgeois class are long gone

This is far from the case; the democracy we have is called bourgeois democracy because it is based on the middle class (and that is not the left wing who say that it is the right - cf Aristotle and Plato) and their increased leisure time and resources through which they fund the political parties. The trade unions are meant to counter this effect by allowing working class peoples to band together in a political party - but sure we have seen the antics of New Labour and their self-confessed drive to become a party of the middle classes.

Quoted from spanner
getting back to the point, most irish men went because it was a chance of adventure,others might have gone for the defence of small nations, the point is many men and women from all over europe were in this war and suffer terrible things, i think the only way we will remember things people and hopefully not repeat such wars again is to build such statues in there memory to act as a reminder of these peoples suffering

Fair enough - BUT - as a socialist, I am not a pacifist and the day may come were the working class will have to take up arms to defend any gains they have within a given society - and that will produce suffering. It is not just the suffering therefore that we remember - it is important that we put the suffering in context; the Great War was fought by "donkeys led by lions" as the infamous quote goes in satirised form and the lesson we should learn from the Great War is that to put ourselves, as working people, in that situation once more would be disastrous - and we strive not to do so through the class struggle; an important element therefore is the remembrance of what happened our society when we marched unquestioningly off to war - ie the suffering of all those soldiers, alive or dead, who fought in the Great War.

Quoted from secret squirrel
But unlike a lot of leftwingers some of us are quite prepared to respect the sacrifices others made without using it as a political football

I am not using it as a political football; the facts are that WWI was fought by working class men (and women) because they were ordered to. To simply say we should remember them is inadequate and escapes the pointed lesson of history that they should not have been ordered to simply to protect the imperial pride of a nation which had become used to power. When we remember the deaths, we remember why they died - and the real reason, once the idiotic and romantic notions of war are dispelled, is that they were ordered to their deaths by the ruling classes, who themselves did not fight. They endured needless suffering when they themselves were under no threat, indeed the examples of Christmas 1914 show that many of those who died did not see the point themselves. I remember their deaths - but I remember more than that - I remember that most if not all of those who died would have preferred to remain alive and would like future generations to learn from past mistakes.

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
I remember that most if not all of those who died would have preferred to remain alive and would like future generations to learn from past mistakes.

...Thats part of what a memorial is for. Only you are unable to separate the tradgedy of WWI from the political systems that were only part of the many causes of WWI. Why do you insist on opposing a memorial which is in there in part to remind us how far we and our political systems have grown since then? Like all human systems our political systems have evolved, grown and changed - with the possible exception of the socialist movement which has spouted the same old tired dogma and rhetoric for as long as I can remember and probably way before that too.

spanner

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
...Thats part of what a memorial is for. Only you are unable to separate the tradgedy of WWI from the political systems that were only part of the many causes of WWI. Why do you insist on opposing a memorial which is in there in part to remind us how far we and our political systems have grown since then? Like all human systems our political systems have evolved, grown and changed - with the possible exception of the socialist movement which has spouted the same old tired dogma and rhetoric for as long as I can remember and probably way before that too.

here here

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from secret squirrel
...Thats part of what a memorial is for. Only you are unable to separate the tradgedy of WWI from the political systems that were only part of the many causes of WWI. Why do you insist on opposing a memorial which is in there in part to remind us how far we and our political systems have grown since then? Like all human systems our political systems have evolved, grown and changed - with the possible exception of the socialist movement which has spouted the same old tired dogma and rhetoric for as long as I can remember and probably way before that too.

You are a bit slow aren't you - I am not opposing the memorial, I am completely in support of having it erected.

Quoted from secret squirrel
Only you are unable to separate the tradgedy of WWI from the political systems that were only part of the many causes of WWI

The political system was entirely the cause of WWI.

The assassination of Franz Ferdinand was due to nationalism, a by-product of all right wing capitalist parties. The rise of nationalism is one of the greatest causes of the first world war and helps explain for example the German/British race to the dreadnoughts.
The fact that there were two huge blocs in Europe which were so ready for war was due to the imperialist nature of colonialism and the desire of the capitalist ruling elite to defend the benefits they recieved from the overseas territories. This reason encompasses everything from British jingoism to German weltpolitik.
This almost entirely encompasses the reasons behind world war one.

Quoted from secret squirrel
with the possible exception of the socialist movement which has spouted the same old tired dogma and rhetoric for as long as I can remember and probably way before that too.

Anything intelligent to support this with? As for 'tired dogma and rhetoric,' for as long as the system remains capitalism then our opposition to it remains as it ever was - whether it's the protectionist version or the neo-liberal version.

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Éomer of Rohan
You are a bit slow aren't you - I am not opposing the memorial, I am completely in support of having it erected.

Hmm just reread your first post. My apologies.

I guess this highlights the most important thing about a memorial - that is that we should all be able get something out of it no matter what our beliefs.

Éomer of Rohan

Quoted from Secret Squirrel
I guess this highlights the most important thing about a memorial - that is that we should all be able get something out of it no matter what our beliefs

Fair enough.

phoenix2181

I for one wear a poppy everyear in memory of the huge number of Irish who fought under the British flag during the great war, i'm not pro British (or indeed pro Irish for that matter) but these boys (very few were men) believed they were fighting for freedom & this is worth fighting for under any flag, the Irish who fought in the spanish civil war is another prime example

gurramok

these boys (very few were men) believed they were fighting for freedom & this is worth fighting for under any flag

That Redmond (was it John?) politician of the time fooled them into thinking they should fight in the war on the basis that Irish freedom would be granted in return.
They were conned also by stories of German terror of the little catholic country called Belgium.

They should be remembered for their needless loss of life not through poppy ceremonies but through something representing the nation they came from.

Agree with Éomer, WW1 was a convenient way for the ruling monarchy class of UK\Germany\Russia to dispose of their numerous working class populace through 'fighting for your country' nationalism.

Only the Russians and later Germans saw through this and had their revolutions.

mike65

Originally posted by gurramok


Only the Russians and later Germans saw through this and had their revolutions.

er which German revolution was that? the rise of Nazism? :eek:

Mike.

Éomer of Rohan

Maybe the Spartacist rising?

gurramok

The Weimar Republic in 1918, end of the monarchy.

Refreshing your mind here

Big Ears

And we all know how succesful the weimer republic was.

sceptre

Originally posted by mike65
The WP have described the memorial
at militaistic offensive and "very British" saying thier was nothing Celtic or Irish about the proposal.

Do they want carvings of shamrocks around the bottom or something?

Plenty of Irish people joined up believing that they were fighting for the freedom of small nations and followed Redmond's call to get a fair shake of the stick for Ireland. Chances are that this chap thought he could help his nation by doing this. Whether or not the small nations call was complete BS is irrelevant.

I agree with both Eomar and Mark at the top of this thread (breaking my usual rule to read the whole thread before replying which I'll now do:))

Mr Mackeath

I am always shocked to find that "socialists" of this particular type still exist. It reminds me of the American song that goes something like "He's an old hippie and he don't know what to do, should he hang on to the old, should he grab on to the new..."

One of the most interesting things about communists/socialists (certain varieties) in the history of the great war is how they capitalized on it to seize control in Russia, giving us the all consuming behemoth that was the Soviet Empire killing more working class people than any of the old empires could ever think of.

And then, to their great shame, supporting the Nazi take over of Germany and the surrounding land, including Poland which the Soviets also invaded, until Hitler dared to also make a go at the Soviets. At that time, these little socialist/communist cowards around the world, in Britain, in Ireland, in the US suddenly changed their tune of "yeah for Hitler and Germany, leave them alone" to "Oh my the must be crushed stopped before they hurt us too!".

Anyone who bases the current political views on the remnants of these coffee house communists is someone to feel very sad for. And to use them to color, either for or against, the tragic death of a 13 year old boy is shameful. Whatever his reasons for joining up and fighting and dying, if Britain had wanted to pay attention to the age of Irish boys joining up, they would have. And if the local towns people had payed attention to this boy a little more, he never would have been able to join either. The fact is, people like to eat, like to have clothes, like to have shelter. And if a 13 year old joined up in service to some cause he thought was just to have this food and shelter, to better his life and take a burden off of his family, then he should be remembered for at least daring to gain something more. Unlike, I am sure, so many of his towns people content to just gripe.

At least they had one less mouth to feed.

secret_squirrel

How bored were you to drag up a 2 1/2 year old post????

Mr Mackeath

So bored it is really kind of sad I suppose. But it is an interesting story and the reaction to it has always irritated me, so I thought I might say something.

Manic Moran

the facts are that WWI was fought by working class men (and women) because they were ordered to

That's one of those issues that just never seems to die. That the majority of troops in pretty much any war are working class is as much because there are more working class people. I'm sure that the lieutenants, captains and majors in the line companies in the trenches faced the same horrors and risks as the working class men that they led.

So, years later, was the monument built?

NTM

spanner

Manic Moran wrote:

That's one of those issues that just never seems to die. That the majority of troops in pretty much any war are working class is as much because there are more working class people. I'm sure that the lieutenants, captains and majors in the line companies in the trenches faced the same horrors and risks as the working class men that they led.

So, years later, was the monument built?

NTM

I am sure it happens like many things in local government, loads of talking and nothing done about it. Its nice for some of these guys to be talking on the tele