the death penalty... is it an effective way of deterring criminals

tibilt

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
To me that sounds like you are trying to get away with murder...

it would wouldn't it? jesus, neil is just after sticking up for you and everything. there is no morally justifyable basis for murder. you have taken that sentence out of context and you know it. i have been adamntly against the death penalty since my first post on this thread. your opinions are a little harder to decipher however.

tibilt

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Wouldn't that be pre-meditated taking of life.. ie. murder...

yes it would. your point?

ll=llannah

killing someone is still killing someone, no matter how you reason it.

vikki

as i said before tilbit im not looking for an argument...
but what does not give us the right to kill people? im not necessarily saying that i feel as though killing is right what im asking is what thing makes us think we dont have the right? maybe belief in god... the ten commandments etc?if so what about athiests? i dont know and am trying to figure it out for myself... in other words im not having a go at you in any way shape or form i want to know what specifically makes us think that killing is wrong?

for/against the death penalty:
there was a man in england who was constantly being burgled by people (of a specific minority group) one day he was at home when the robbers broke in and in fear of his life he shot them... this was certainly in self defence... one of the robbers had been convicted over a hundred times for burglary but because they were part of a minority group the police could not do much or it was racism... ridiculous or what??? but the man who shot the men was sent to jail... if this had happend and the death penalty was in place he may have been killed... but also if it was in place the burglars may have been on death row and therefore would not have been able to steal repeatedly.

so that highlights numerous flaws in the irish/english legal system(as both are practically identical)
(a) the robbers should have been sent to jail
(b) the man should not have been convicted as he shot in self defence
(c) people should be convicted equally regardless of race/religion etc
(d) it highlights the point of the criminal has all the rights
(e) our legal systems need to be improved!!!

sorry that was slightly unrelated... if anyone spots any flaws i didnt please say...

Vikki*:cool:

tibilt

but nothing gives us the right to kill anything.i wasn't arguing with you vikki. not in the least.but if your going to post opinions on a forum of open debate you gotta exepct some arguement. but your absolutely right. although even in self defence, killing cannot be justifyied. murder cannot be justifyed. there just is no valid reason. perhaps he did fear for his life, but he had no way of knowing with absolute certainty that he would be killed. no one ever does. of course our legal system needs to be improved, but its not that criminals have rights, it thats the legal system must give equal rights to everyone. and although i agree with you on the race/minority topic, it is equally as racist to give special treatment to any minority.

Crash

i'm sorry tibilt but your reply there strikes me as inanely dumb. what you're saying is that if someone were to attack me and i were to fight back in self defence and that person were to die as a result of that fight, i should go to jail because i took a life, simply because it wasnt certain that i was going to die?

so if some guy breaks into my house with a knife or syringe (as has happened way too often) and i were to defend myself using something along the lines of a bat or something, and if i were to hit him cracking his skull and he dies, you believe i should go to jail because I killed him in self defence but wasnt SURE i was going to die?

That is the largest load of ****e i have heard recently. Simple fact is that there is no way in hell someone should be prosecuted in a situation like that. they took the only option they could see open to them.

tibilt

killing someone makes you a murderer. what kind of murderer you are can be debated perhaps. but there is no excuse for murder. there are no mitigating circumstances which allow for it. all murderers deserve to be treated as murderers. but thank you for the attack.

vikki

No offence danny/tilbit but you didnt answer the question... what does not give us the right to kill i dont know myself and that is why i ask... what specifically makes us think it is wrong

and in reply to what you said about people who attack in self defence being equally as wrong as murderers...

why... how give one good reason as to why you think attacking in self defence is as wrong as being the attacker? (if that makes sense)

if someone walked into my house trying to kill me i would fight back would you not???

Vikki*

tibilt

there are no reasons vikki.i realize i may be incorrect in my assumption but i just believe killing is wrong.i just do. on some fundamental basic level i believe that to take life is simply wrong.i offer no support for my beliefs.they are no more than beliefs.you are entitled to believe what you want. i was merely posing the question of justifyable homicide. if someone broke into my house i would find a way to escape.there is nothing valuble enough to me to kill a man for.

vikki

No you are not incorrect in your assumptions i agree however i do believe that if someone kills a lot of people they dont deserve to live but only in certain circumstances for example that guy who killed holly and jessica should get killed via lethal injection because he has killed two young girls who didnt deserve to die. And if someone broke into my house and tried to kill me i would without a doubt fight back and i think that you are great to say you would escape rather than fight back i know that i wouldn't.

Vikki*

tibilt

i agree with you that that man may have forfeited his right to the life he has.but do we have the right to kill him? i mean...he didnt have the right to kill those girls, what right do we have to kill him?

Aliminator

from the fingers de la Tibilt.

i realize i may be incorrect in my assumption but i just believe killing is wrong.i just do. on some fundamental basic level i believe that to take life is simply wrong.i offer no support for my beliefs

support: have any of you ever read the bible or qu'ran or the equivalent. there's ur support.

and btw. on a side topic, islamic law. a muppet is a muppet regardless of the pretense of religion he/she/they proclaim. the vast majority of arab nations hold spoiled muppets. after 3 religions their still not rectified. so, that example is a bit useless. it does happen, but don't blame religion. Osama bin laden is a fkn muppet just to state it.
would consider 'God's Army' in the Congo a proper reflection of Christianity? going and stealing kids outta their homes every night. the kids have to stay in public places to avoid capture. ffs.

yeh, in summation, killing is wrong, and no human really has the right.

Crash

you'd try and escape - nothing is valuable enough to risk someone or your own life over

^this i agree with danny. but the situation i'm talking bout, is if you're cornered in your own house with someone who is desperate enough to kill for the money. would you simply hope that he wouldnt do anything to you? or are you under the impression that no one would kill without reason?

If so you're being mindnumbingly naive.

If i was in that situation and ended up hitting the attacker with something and killing them, a)i don't feel i should be labelled a murderer (first of all as your definition of murderer is completely off, i'd rather be a felon guilty of manslaughter. murder is premeditated.) b)i don't feel i should be convicted (and any legal system worth its salt wouldn't convict and c)i wouldn't care half as much as being labelled as killing someone. simply because the death was in self defence and it was a simple choice of him or me. in my own home. with me on the defensive.

Personally i think you're being very set minded on this danny, in that you are looking at it from way above rather than in the way cases like that should be looked at which is with full thought lent to the mitigating circumstances. I fully believe no one has a right to take life, but i firmly believe that everyone has the right to protect themselves. are you saying in a case as the above that if said hypothetical person was cornered by hypothetical crazy man you would convict that man on MANSLAUGHTER not MURDER?

tibilt

im not talking about legal systems neil, for gods sake. im talking about life and death. look up murder-it means to kill, to take life. premeditated murder is called premeditated murder, not murder. stop being so pedantic. to kill another human being is wrong. it just is. i dont care how set minded that is, i have every right to be arrogant about the fundamentals of simple existence. there is no good reason to kill. there just isnt. if i was cornered in my own house, by a supposedly crazy man who was intent on killing me i would escape. if i am capable of killing this maniac out to kill me, surely i am capable of escaping his clutches. if i can land a blow on his head and kill him, why not on his leg and incapacitate him long enough to facilitate my escape? i have been in situations where my life has been threatened neil. i have escaped them. and i havnt needed to resort to violence. why can't you just see that killing is wrong? there are no contexts, there are no mitigating circumstances. i dont care about legalities, i dont care about improper definitions, i care about life. my life as much as anyone elses. no one deserves to die and i damn well don't have the right to kill them, no matter what their crime. you can argue your little mitigations about justification all you want. it's your right. it's your opinion. it's as valid as mine. and it's not mindnumbing and it's not innanely dumb, it's your opinion.

i just....think.killing.is.wrong.
i'm sorry

Spenguin

Couple of things there tibilt. You said ' Why can't you just see that killing is wrong' and you also said that Neils opinion was as valid as yours. Another thing, I think you should look up murder. I have the dictionary beside me right now.
murder- To kill a human being unlawfully with malice aforethought: to kill wickedly, inhumanly, or barbarously.
Unlawfully. It's all about the legal system. 'No one deserves to die'. Well... we're all going to die...
Tell me this. If there was a really good person who was about to be killed by some insane crazed murderer, and no matter what one of them was going to die, which one would you choose to live? Killing is wrong sometimes. Sometimes it isn't. Sometimes people are in a lot of pain and they're going to die anyway so people put them out of their pain because the dying person asks them to. And sometimes some horrible people have to die so in the long run many others will be saved. The whole 'they might not kill you thing' is a bit ridiculous, you're risking your life on a criminal with intent to do you harm. Sometimes escaping will lead to your death because when you run you have your back turned to them and you will be vulnerable. Especially if they have a gun. I don't wanna be mean, but these are just my opinions.

tibilt

of course neils opinions are valid.i was posing a question out of desperation.i can't keep arguing this point forever, its just too basic. i apologize for my claim - no one deserves to die - what i should have said was, no one deserves to die at the hands of another. i don't care if my life comes under threat in the attempt to escape spenguin. i would rather die than forfeit my right to my life by killing another. i dont have the right to kill. i just don't. i realize its impractical, perhaps even idiotic, but i just couldn't bring myself to kill a man, even if it meant dying myself. if ever the choice was before me i would chose to take my own life over another. and since your so fond of ridiculous hypotheticals - what about if you could give your life to save a defenceless child? do you deserve to die so that they might live? there are no answers for these ridiculous questions. we only know what we would do given the situation. and assuming i could kill the insane crazed murderer to prevent him from killing the 'good' man i would also presume that i could stop him without killing him. i dont have all the answers spenguin. you can keep throwing these trifling semantics at me and i am just going to keep answering with the same point. I think killing is wrong. no matter what the situation, no matter who it involves and what kind of person they are, its just wrong. i apologize for my misinterpretation of murder, but it was the only word i could think of to describe a person killing a person. it may be about legalities for you, but it's not for me. im sorry i that i can't seem to see things your way, but then, i am a very arrogant person.

Spenguin

Surely if it was so basic you would have no need to argue it forever, that it wouldn't be so questionable? Are you calling the people who don't see things your way idiots, by calling it a basic idea? Would I risk my life to save a defeceless child? Yeah, I guess I would, I'm not extremely afraid of dying. Well I am sort of, yeah, but It happens and i can't prevent that. Then you get to find out what happens next. That doesn't mean I want my life unneccessarily taken away from me. With the child, I would be serving a purpose. the child would get to live. Course, theres no guarantee that I actually would, but i think I would. It is noble of you to put all others above yourself, but you have to respect that not all others are willing to do that. Sometimes you have to respect your own right to live also, I think. All I'm saying is that I would put my life above someone who would put others in danger like a murderer. Not a child.

kaimera

forget the death penalty...

let them criminals fight it out among themselves for the sparce jail space.
2 men enter, one man leaves.
cheaper than a bullet.

nice easy way of lowering the skanger population. Let them kill each other.

tibilt

i see what you mean.im not calling anyone an idiot - i just see this from a very basic level. i don't want to allow for variables because i dont believe in them at thsi level.but i see your point. i just dont think that i have the right to decide who deserves to live - be it murderer or child. but i know what your saying and i understand it. and i know i can't expect anyone to put others above themselves. but im coming at this from my point of view. im not trying to change the world - or expecting the world to change because of my point of view. this is just my perception, my choice on how to take in the world. but it is no more valid than yours. and i absolutely see what you mean.i just, cant agree. im sorry

Spenguin

No problem, I respect your opinion and will stop arguing it at this point.

Crash

I'm gonna close this thread cus its just basically going in circles. but at least for the first time in a long time theres been a good discussion on here.

Neil.