Rail line project to be grant aided by Brussels

De Rebel

Irish Times
12/11/2003

Rail line project to be grant aided by Brussels
Construction of a high-grade rail line between Cork, Dublin and Belfast is one of the projects which will be grant aided in a €62 billion drive to upgrade transport infrastructure across the EU, the European Commission announced yesterday

jd

Originally posted by De Rebel
Irish Times
12/11/2003

Interesting-
I wonder would this be contingent on providing a through service through Connolly /new station in Spencer Dock...

Qadhafi

The Irish Times
12-11-2003

Rail line project to be grant aided by Brussels.
Edward Power
***************************************
Construction of a high-grade rail line between Cork, Dublin and Belfast is one of the projects which will be grant aided in a €62Billion drive to upgrade transport infrastructure across the EU, the European Commission announced yesterday.

Improved sea links - "motor ways of the sea" in Commission parlance - between the Republic and key ports in Spain and Portugal, Scandinavia and the Low Countries are also earmarked in the plan.

They are among 56 projects which the Commission wants to see advanced between now and 2010. Financing for the schemes would be 60 percent from public funds and 40 per cent from private sources.

The Department of Transport said it is examining the Commission's proposals but that it is too early to comment.

The Commission's initiative is aimed at mobilising investment in plans that will create jobs and boost the economy, said Commission President Mr Romano Prodi.

He said: "We will start immediately with these projects, some of which have been in the works since almost before the birth of Christ." It is a catalyst which the European Union needs to restart growth," he added.

EU diplomats have expressed scepticism, noting that lists of investment plans had been approved in the past but only a fraction were ever completed.

EU leaders had charged the Commission to draft the priority list at a summit in October.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Qadhafi
The Irish Times
12-11-2003
Construction of a high-grade rail line between Cork, Dublin and Belfast is one of the projects which will be grant aided in a €62Billion drive to upgrade transport infrastructure across the EU, the European Commission announced yesterday.

Am wondering about his. Did the EU dream it up or did somebody apply for it. Is there a plan. Has there been a consultation? Is it part of the strategic rail review? What is it to be spent on? What will be achieved? Who will manage the project? What are the deliverables in this project?

CIE has spent a lot of money on the Cork-Dublin-Belfast line in the past decade, CWT, Signalling, Engines, Carriages, and the service is no better, no faster than 15/20 years ago (apart from safer, I guess)

Victor

I get the impression this is largely EU driven, with them looking at the big (EU-wide) picture and not simply considering whether it will boost chances of an extra seat in Carlow Kilkenny.

Qadhafi

CIE has spent a lot of money on the Cork-Dublin-Belfast line in the past decade, CWT, Signalling, Engines, Carriages, and the service is no better, no faster than 15/20 years ago (apart from safer, I guess)

I agree that the service is no better but give them till 2005 when they introduce the new carriages. At least you will be able to get a seat. Still slow as fcuk.

Construction of a high-grade rail line between Cork, Dublin and Belfast

Does this mean they are going to build a new line or upgrade the existing one, and what standard is classed as "high Grade"? This is something I always thought the Irish government should have been doing long before the recent EU Commission initiative.

Motorways are all very well but not exactly a long term solution in relation to people movement. I guess it remains to be seen what they mean by the above and whether the EU and Irish Government goes ahead with this project.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Qadhafi
Does this mean they are going to build a new line or upgrade the existing one, and what standard is classed as "high Grade"? This is something I always thought the Irish government should have been doing long before the recent EU Commission initiative.

Motorways are all very well but not exactly a long term solution in relation to people movement. I guess it remains to be seen what they mean by the above and whether the EU and Irish Government goes ahead with this project.

My fear is that if this money gets into the hands of ANY of the **** currently involved in infrastructure provision in this country then it will be wasted. The Cork-Dublin-Belfast link is one that could be of major benefit to the economy, and could justify considerable capital expenditure. But that would involve planning a high speed inter city service (for example sub 90 mins Cork-Dub), city terminals and optimum usage for freight trunking. The current shower are incapable of delivering on this.

rcunning03

i have been takin my happy pills today hopefully when the new infrastructure bill is introduced things will change and well have decent transport links between our cities and we wont waste the money the eu will give us to provide this rail link

the happy pills are also stopping me from wondering how the americans built their entire highway infrastructure in 10 years and in a country that is smaller than most u.s. states its gonna take 15 years. i want to believe comrade brennan when he says the new infrastructure bill will speed things up

Victor

Originally posted by rcunning03
the happy pills are also stopping me from wondering how the americans built their entire highway infrastructure in 10 years

The Interstate highway system was started in the 1930s and as best I know is still incomplete (1-2% left). I think Chicago - Los Angelus was the first route.

rcunning03

i heard on the radio think it was david mcwilliams show were someone said it took ten years but i have no way of backing that statement up

i think we do have a tendency to over complain and we dont seem to notice when projects are completed ahead of time but that said the motorways should of been built back in the 50's

Qadhafi

i think we do have a tendency to over complain and we dont seem to notice when projects are completed ahead of time but that said the motorways should of been built back in the 50's

I have been bitching about the fcuk ups made in Ireland in relation to infastructure. They have been pretty stupid and generally slow.

If they build this new Cork Dublin line and its High speed even better. I will give them some credit. But some how I cant see them getting it right.

De Rebel

Originally posted by rcunning03
the motorways should of been built back in the 50's

In Ireland, the 50s ? You have got to be joking right?

I too complain about the country’s infrastructure. But a penniless, agrarian, depressed economy building motorways?

Victor

Originally posted by De Rebel
But a penniless, agrarian, depressed economy building motorways?

Not quite. Land and labour was cheap and public debt wasn't an issue until the 1970s. The reason the economy was depressed was because there was little investment.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Victor
Not quite.

Very much so. The economy was generating little wealth, and what little there was was still being invested in slum clearance and baisc health care ( the hospital building program)

sceptre

The Lincoln highway (NYC-LA) took 8 years (1915-1923). 3389 miles of road. How did they pay for it? They cheated (sort of). There wasn't anywhere near the amount of money they needed so Carl Fisher (the guy who started Miami Beach and ended up poor) came up with the idea of 'seedling miles'. He'd take a stretch of dirt road midway between two towns and pave some of it. Sounds like a nutty idea but the local townspeople would then get the notion that they'd like to be connected to this hot new highway so they paid for the remainder of the mileage to their town themselves. This was pretty much an entirely private (but charitable) venture - the federal government didn't make any money available for interstate highways until the late 1920s.

On to real highways (the Lincoln road was two lane). Eisenhower appointed a committee in the 50s to do something about the American transport system. They gave much more emphasis to the roads than to any other forms of transport (the head of the committee was also on the board of GM if you need a reason). Their report (in 1956) recommended the construction of 42000 miles of highways/freeways, authorised by Eisenhower with the Interstate Highways Act in the same year. They pumped $118 billion into the interstate roads over the next 25 years (compared to about 1.6 billion on mass transit systems for cities). Victor's right - they still haven't finished bits of it. They did make rather a good stab at it in the 10 years after 1956 though.

Floater

Originally posted by Qadhafi

Does this mean they are going to build a new line or upgrade the existing one, and what standard is classed as "high Grade"? This is something I always thought the Irish government should have been doing long before the recent EU Commission initiative.
[/B]

There have been a spate of announcements across the EU this week. For example, they plan to run a new TGV 300 kph rail line between Nice and Barcelona, which would connect with the Paris -Marseille TGV line.

A good straight line Cork - Dublin - Belfast built to TGV standard would get one from Dublin to Cork in about an hour (allowing for one or two stops) and to Belfast in about 45 mins. It would require very little rolling stock because of the fast turnaround - even with an hourly service.

A 9 car duplex TGV train set costs about EUR 11 million each. For special events such as matches they can clamp two duplex sets together into one train providing almost 3,000 seats - ie 18 carriages with upstairs and downstairs.

The old railway line could be used for rail freight services and local trains. The one or two stops would be at new purpose built out of town TGV stations. You might have one in Co Kildare for example. It would be close to the motorway network, have a huge cheap car park and incorporate a bus and taxi station. It could also have an attached shopping mall to share the car park and create a body of demand for bus services to the combined complex.

The attached picture shows one of these out of town TGV stations in France (Aix-en-Provence TGV) – 32km north of Marseille. The train on the second track just passing through the station shoots through at full speed. There is a wall between the middle tracks and the platforms to block the gale of wind.

They are going to have to electrify the route sooner or later and despite all the repair and replacement work done over the past decade it really isn’t up to scratch for anything over 130kph where it feels under strain with the existing rolling stock.

The TGV rolling stock has triple glazed windows with a wide gap between each layer of glass, masses of sound insulation and Merc S-Class quality suspension. Smooth and ultra quiet. Far less draining and more relaxing than any other form of transport.

Floater

Qadhafi

That sounds FANTISTIC ! An hour from Dublin to Cork ! and only 45mins from Dublin to Belfast!! And it has to represent the best way to travel. The government has been pushing a air service between these different cities but wouldnt this service be as fast (inc all the check in times etc) and as cheap.

However the government has yet to comment on this and the EU has been know be very slow on infastructure. Wether is actually built at all, or built to TGV standard does seem most unlikely:(

TGV is defintely the way to go for a connection service between the cities. Its fast, seems generaly clean, and comfortable.

De Rebel

Originally posted by Floater
A good straight line Cork - Dublin - Belfast built to TGV standard would get one from Dublin to Cork in about an hour (allowing for one or two stops) and to Belfast in about 45 mins. It would require very little rolling stock because of the fast turnaround - even with an hourly service.

A 9 car duplex TGV train set costs about EUR 11 million each. For special events such as matches they can clamp two duplex sets together into one train providing almost 3,000 seats - ie 18 carriages with upstairs and downstairs.

The old railway line could be used for rail freight services and local trains. The one or two stops would be at new purpose built out of town TGV stations. You might have one in Co Kildare for example. It would be close to the motorway network, have a huge cheap car park and incorporate a bus and taxi station. It could also have an attached shopping mall to share the car park and create a body of demand for bus services to the combined complex.

The attached picture shows one of these out of town TGV stations in France (Aix-en-Provence TGV) – 32km north of Marseille. The train on the second track just passing through the station shoots through at full speed. There is a wall between the middle tracks and the platforms to block the gale of wind.

They are going to have to electrify the route sooner or later and despite all the repair and replacement work done over the past decade it really isn’t up to scratch for anything over 130kph where it feels under strain with the existing rolling stock.

The TGV rolling stock has triple glazed windows with a wide gap between each layer of glass, masses of sound insulation and Merc S-Class quality suspension. Smooth and ultra quiet. Far less draining and more relaxing than any other form of transport.

Floater

One has had multiple-orgasms with less cause than reading your post. What a dream. I'll ruminate on that post every time I sit having dinner at 10.00pm in Dublin Airport's only open restaurant (McDonalds) while waiting on a delayed Aer Arran flight or enjoying the view of an empty platform in Cahir Station at 9pm on a wet winters evening while shivering my way from Dublin to Cork at an average speed just under 50mph.

Now lets think about giving CIE/IIR/RPA a sh1t load of german spondoolix and telling them to build a TGV from Belfast to Cork via Dublin........ Starting in January 2004

The planning, EIS, oral hearings, High Court injunctions, Supreme Court Appeals etc should keep everybody busy till early 2006. S Brennan will still be Transport Supremo so he will need to make his mark, and while it is difficult to predict what well intentioned nonsense he will come up with, itwill delay the project a further 12 months and add 20% to the cost. No doubt J O'Donoghue will campaign vigorously to have a spur line to serve the Kingdom, and C McCreevy will insist on a stop serving the racecourse on the plains of Kildare. Other politicians will then join the campaign and it will be decided to have stops in every townland on the route in anticipation of the 2009 local elections. When the route line is eventually drawn and the CPO's issued (another 12 months worth of paperwork) the IFA will get into gear to oppose the ridiculously low levels of compensation being offered to farmers for giving up their heritage. There will then be a delay because the tunnel linking kingsbridge to amien street, which will be half completed by that stage, will be found to be 9inches (which will by then be known as 22.5cm even in Letrim) too small for a standard TGV set. A compromise solution will be adopted; a two year project to increase the tunnel height by 4 inches (10cm in the new maths) and narrowing the wheel base by 5 inches (work out the new measurement for yourself). This latter change will be adopted for the Dublin - Cork leg only as the ruling party in the Northern Assembly will not want to be seen to be led by the southern government. This will result in a different gauge being adopted on the Northern leg. This will result in an extensive duplication of sheds, service areas, marshalling yards, washing and maintenance facilities to cater for the two different gauges. A further complication will then be realised when the Franco-German company manufacturing the train sets refuses to amend the gauge specification because the order quantity is so low and the order for the Southern Leg rolling stock will be transferred to a Japanese trolley bus manufacturer who has no experience in broad gauge but is keen to enter the market. This sets the entire project back another 4 years while the build a factory and validate a stretch of test track on the (Japanese) North Island. Meanwhile construction inflation has set in and caused a 735% increase in project costs. S Brennan announces that he is determined to finish the project as a matter of urgency and is bringing in consultants to conduct a status review. After 9 months they issue an interim report recommending the construction of a warehouse in West Maynooth to house their final report. The project plan is then amended to run a spur line to the newly constructed warehouse. The Green Party Government’s “Second National Spatial Strategy” is released at about this time and it is decided that Dublin is overcrowded and overdeveloped and that the advent of a high-speed rail link will exacerbate the situation. Accordingly it is decided to alter the route so it becomes the Cork-MAT-Belfast TGV (MAT being the new Mullingar-Athlone-Tullamore conurbation). An open competition to select an operator will then run into controversy when it is realised that the front runner is a semi-bankrupt former pharmaceutical company with land to spare in the MAT area. Meanwhile back on the construction front…………. but anyway, you get the idea.

Cork-Dublin-Belfast TGV ? You really think it could happen?

Floater

Originally posted by De Rebel

Cork-Dublin-Belfast TGV ? You really think it could happen?

Nice > Barcelona is 643 kms and estimated to cost EUR 2bn - ie EUR 3.1M per km. It is a very difficult route in parts with the mountains to be tunnelled. Big little mountains like the Pyrenees.

Most of the Cork - Dublin route is flat. I seem to recall talk of spending EUR 400 million to add an extra set of tracks to the Kildare commuter segment of Cork Dublin.

EUR 3 million per km for Cork Dublin is about EUR 750 Million - lets say a billion because it is Ireland.

You wouldn't need to spend EUR 400 million on double tracks for Kildare commuter if you had a new TGV line to take the inter city stuff. That reduces the effective cost to EUR 600 million. I see nice development opportunities for the Kildare and Limerick Junction TGV stations. Particularly Kildare - shopping, residential, office, business parks etc. Screw EUR 100 M contribution from developers for this.

Deduct the EU's contribution - let's say 33% of 1bn = 330 million.

Could be done for EUR 300 - 400 million if managed properly. Even if it costs a bit more, it is surely an excellent investment in saving peoples' time, reducing road fatalities, etc. Why should the rail system stay in the 1900s forever?

It's not just a Dublin - Cork thing on the southern leg. Limerick Junction TGV station would be about 45 minutes to Dublin. Even Waterford might be better served by rail from Waterford to Limerick Junction and TGV to Dublin or Cork or Belfast.

It would be a very busy service - carrying perhaps five times current PAX volumes.

Floater

De Rebel

I can see all the good reasons for doing it. I just cannot for the life of me seeing it happening.

The justification for sorting out Dublin's public transport is far more obvious, and the powers that be (politicians and civil/public servants) face that justification every day when they see the traffic. And yet almost nothing is being done, apart from one spectacular mess involving two glorified bus routes.

How much less likely is it that they will realise the need for some sort of effective inter-city communication between Cork and Dublin and actually do something about it.

I'd give Cork-Dublin TGV 100:1 odds

Qadhafi

It looks like a €400 million project for Cork-Dublin. A TGV/HSR has to be the best possible way in which to travel and is worth every cent of the price tag.

But its a lota cash just for one line. I dont know if this government has the forsight or intelligence to go ahead with something lthat makes sense. The odds much be stacked high against it.

It looks like a large amount of the major cities of Europe will be covered by HSR in the next 10 years or so and clearly European governments have recogised the value of HSR(unlike ours).




I'd give Cork-Dublin TGV 100000000000:1

embraer170

Good idea from Floater as always, however what we need to see is some substance. Of course we won't see a (Belfast) - Dublin - Cork TGV if we just discuss on this forum but who knows what can be achieved if a pressure Group is set up. Platform11 have done a lot, I don't see why another Group could not do likewise: A few people with good ideas, some rail experts and a lot motivation.

I personally could imagine stops in Kildare, Limerick Junction and Mallow.

A lot of work is being done in California by relative amateurs towards the construction of a HSR between San Jose, San Francisco, Los Angeles and San Diego. But of course that is a whole other environment with a lot more money, people etc. and is not at all comparable.

That said, I find the €1 billion figure much too low.

Qadhafi

Ireland on sunday
EU turn puts Ireland on road to nowhere
16-November-2003
********************
irelands transport system has run into yet another snarl up. The EU has decide to drop plans for a high speed rail and motorway link from lanr to rosslare, and for a motorway from dublin to cork, from its hight priority list.

instead a €200bn transport funding bonanza is now set to benefit Italy, Germany and some of the new EU countries in eastern Europe.

But a Department of Transport spokesman said Ireland would be demanding that the list be reconsidered. 'Ireland will be looking for our projects to be re-priortised', said Tom Rowley.

'Our competitiveness is becoming a key issue and the structural funds are crucial for funding these projects to make us more competitive,' he added

Qadhafi

Looks like thats the end of that

it was too good to be true, actually having HSR in Ireland

Victor

I'm not sure about the economics of the line - a line used to (1980s) need 30 trains a day (per track?) to make electrification of a diesel line worthwhile (nevermind a whole new railway).

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
I'm not sure about the economics of the line - a line used to (1980s) need 30 trains a day (per track?) to make electrification of a diesel line worthwhile (nevermind a whole new railway).

Sweden (Pop 8.8 million) 7,918 kms of electrified rail
Denmark (Pop 5.4 million) 595 kms electrified – (was almost 0 kms about a decade ago)
Finland (pop 5.1 million) 2,400 kms electrified rail – smaller pop than island of Ireland
Norway (pop 4.5 million) 2,518 kms electrified rail – ditto
Luxembourg (pop 450,000) population of Cork - 242 kms electrified rail
Portugal (pop 10 million) 623 kms electrified rail
Slovenia (pop 1.9 million) 499 kms electrified rail
Bulgaria (pop 7.5 million) 2,710 kms electrified rail
Austria (pop 8.8 million) 3,641 kms electrified rail

These and every other country in Europe has electrified all or the majority of their rail networks.

I can show you remote villages, in the mountains, which have an electrified rail connection with a few trains a day on a single track.

Ireland (pop 3.9 million + Northern Ireland 1.7 million) 46 kms electrified rail


Floater

Floater

Originally posted by Qadhafi
Ireland on sunday
EU turn puts Ireland on road to nowhere
16-November-2003
********************
irelands transport system has run into yet another snarl up. The EU has decide to drop plans for a high speed rail and motorway link from lanr to rosslare, and for a motorway from dublin to cork, from its hight priority list.

instead a €200bn transport funding bonanza is now set to benefit Italy, Germany and some of the new EU countries in eastern Europe.

But a Department of Transport spokesman said Ireland would be demanding that the list be reconsidered. 'Ireland will be looking for our projects to be re-priortised', said Tom Rowley.

'Our competitiveness is becoming a key issue and the structural funds are crucial for funding these projects to make us more competitive,' he added

If I was the newspaper editor and someone presented me with a leaked story like this, I would ask myself why would the EU, having gone through an extensive exercise involving transport, financial and other experts (not to mention consultation with national governments before going public) suddenly about turn in relation to funding for Ireland, a few days after announcing the Europe-wide “transport funding bonanza”?

Every element of this decision will have been signed off by each party involved on paper in triplicate and the final documents translated into perhaps a dozen languages.

The EU doesn’t work like that. Tabloid rubbish.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by embraer170

But of course that is a whole other environment with a lot more money

The state of California is almost bankrupt and is almost as clueless about public transport as every other part of the USA.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by Qadhafi

But its a lota cash just for one line.

That one line would provide service to 2.65 million people – i.e. about 70% of the population of Ireland. It would also breathe life into other railway lines (eg Kerry to Mallow, Waterford – Limerick Junction, Ennis – Limerick – LJ, Tullamore – Athlone, and the Carlow-Kilkenny line to name a few).

While people would have to change trains at Kildare TGV (at least in the initial stages) to complete their journey to Kilkenny, Athlone, Tullamore, Portlaoise, etc it would greatly reduce their overall journey time and enhance the public transport experience for them – making them more likely to use rail rather than road. It would also make it easier to travel from one provincial town or city to another via key, easily and quickly reached changing points at Kildare, Limerick Junction and Mallow.

The Dublin region would benefit from a high speed rail backbone into the city probably more than any other area of the country – improving access to the city, reducing road traffic from much of the rest of the country, and helping reduce the pressure on resources generally.

The project needs to be looked at as part of a whole integrated venture encompassing Dublin’s integrated urban transport system.

The build out of the backbone would take the best part of a decade to complete, allowing the costs to be spread over a long period. The key issue is surely to have a big picture of where the overall system is going so that resources aren’t wasted.

Floater

The attached picture shows what the Kildare TGV station might look like inside. The TGV line runs "upstairs". You wait inside the glass roof balcony until the train arrives in the station. You know where to wait because the train composition indicator (you can see one near where the people are standing at the bottom of the stairs) tells you where each car on the train will come to a stop on the balcony. The local feeder trains operate at ground floor level. In addition to the ramp for wheely baggage, there are elevators. Shops, cafeterias and other services are also located on the ground floor.

rcunning03

we can only dream

---

Japanese train hits 347 mph mark
17/11/2003 - 12:47:25

A Japanese magnetically levitated train broke its own world speed record today when engineers sent it hurtling 347 mph down a test track west of Tokyo.

The five-carriage MLX01, which clocked the previous fastest maglev speed 343 mph in April 1999, raced to its new record with no one on board.

Engineers at the 11.4 mile long test track near Kofu, 68 miles from Tokyo, controlled the train remotely, said Mika Kamijo, a spokeswoman for Central Japan Railway Company.

Thirteen people were on board when the maglev set its last speed record, Kamijo said.

Maglev trains differ from conventional trains in that magnets lift them slightly off the ground, eliminating speed-reducing friction with the tracks.

The MLX01 is part of a government-financed project to develop faster trains for a country that is already home to some of the world’s speediest.

Japan’s Shinkansen “bullet trains” run up to 186 mph, and have reached speeds of 275 mph in test runs conducted in 1996.

Germany has developed a maglev train, which made its commercial debut in Shanghai, China, last year. The US is planning to build its first commercial maglev at a yet-to-be selected location.

Floater

Originally posted by rcunning03
we can only dream

---

Japanese train hits 347 mph mark
17/11/2003 - 12:47:25

They had great plans for MagLev trains in Germany which have been cancelled. They are not compatible with conventional rail systems and so don’t integrate well with legacy networks.

TGV started on the Paris Lyon route since 1981. The same TGV trains could continue on to Marseille and elsewhere on the legacy network until the purpose built TGV line was constructed.

TGV has done 515kph in tests. Germany’s ICE train which is being used instead of MagLev has done 410kph in tests. TGV is currently run at 300kph in commercial operations with up to 3,000 people on board (as opposed to nobody on board in the Japanese test).

TGV is the most proven system and is in operation (in Europe) in France, Spain, Switzerland, Belgium, the Channel Tunnel (modified version), and will be operating into Germany from Paris in 2006.

Floater