Ryanair to lose Charleroi????

Dinarius

Not sure where to put this thread, but Travel is too quiet for such an important subject, in my opinion, and neither Politics (though that is indeed what it is!) nor Commuting/Transport seems totally relevant.

I heard on the news just now that O'Leary has all but conceded defeat on the Charleroi route.

It looks like Brussels is about to rule against the funding that he receives from local business there.

Before anyone says, "Well Aer Lingus can fly cheaply too and from Brussels......" Well, yes they can. But, all is not what it seems.

I have been living in Brussels with my Civil Servant wife since June this year.

I have taken about 10 flights from here to Dublin. Six have been with AL, four Ryanair.

AL have not always been the cheapest. Indeed, Ryanair usually is. But, if the difference is not too great, I take AL as the journey is far less arduous.

However, my main point is this: Let there be no misunderstandings on the question of state funding of airlines. It is very much alive and well!

On a typicaly AL flight from Brussels to Dublin (and vice versa) almost the entire Business Class is taken up with civil servants or employees of state funded bodies paying €500-600 each. I know, because my wife is usually one of them!

The ENTIRE cost of the flight is covered by this (thinly) disguised subsidy.

This allows AL to compete with Ryanair for the economy traffic.

But, I am dreading there being no competition. At present, I can fly, at best, for €39 each way plus taxes with AL. That is excellent and allows me, and many other small businesses, to travel almost at will.

Without competition, this route will almost certainly revert to what it used to be, i.e. one of the world's most expensive per mile. (In case you didn't know, before the advent of Ryanair, Dublin/London was THE most expensive route in the world per mile. Yes folks, AL screwed us for all they could. A tiny constituency of about 10,000 people in North County Dublin held the rest of the country to ransom.)

I am no apologist for EITHER airline. I just want the best deal possible for the consumer.

Tax breaks of all kinds are given out all over the EU. Ireland survives on them! The Charleroi area has boomed due to Ryanair. Losing it would be bad for many people, including those who wish to work for or travel with Aer Lingus. Think about that!

D.

Victor

Hmmm, you seem quite opinionated there. The Brussels route is probably an exeption rather than the rule (what with EU and NATO HQs there). Also quite a few of these people are travelling on short notice and almost exclusively for business, so it lends itself to be expensively priced.

Some airlines offer MEPs, etc. free upgrades - hence business class may be full, but they may not be paying full price.

If Ryanair wants part of this subsidy action, why don't they fly out of Brussels rather than Charleroi? Simply becasuse they are getting a better deal with Charleroi and are able to make more from the customers that way.

And regarding cost per mile, of course short(ish) journies are going to be expensive per mile.

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/1945897?view=Eircomnet

Ryanair threatens to leave Charleroi in subsidy row
From:ireland.com
Wednesday, 12th November, 2003

Ryanair has threatened to pull out of Charleroi airport if the European Commission rules that the airline's arrangement on landing charges with the Belgian regional airport is illegal.

At a press conference in Brussels today, Ryanair said it has learned that a draft report from the Commission indicated that "substantial parts" of Ryanair's arrangements at Brussels Charleroi will be found unlawful.

Ryanair admitted l that it did not have sight of the actual detail of the decision and it is responding to "feedback" received from a number of sources within the Commission.

Share in Ryanair fell 4.8 per cent to €6.40 on the Dublin market this morning after the company's statement.

Ryanair and the Walloon regional government which owns Charleroi airport signed an agreement in January under which the carrier pays landing fees 50 per cent below the official rate. If the Commssion decides this constitutes state aid, the arrangement will be deemed illegal.

Ryanair has already indicated that it will appeal any unfavourable decision to the European Court. Ryanair may also explore the possibility of privatising Charleroi.

If neither of these options are possible then Ryanair will be forced, temporarily, to close the base at Brussels Charleroi, while the appeal is pending, the airline warned.

Villain

Think there is a few examples of this, the other airlines have complained to the EU because they say that competition is not fair.

The local council offer these incentives to bring people to the area, I think there was a airport in France too that had been referenced in realation to this.

(I heard this on a debate on the last word I think it was, I apologise for the shabby info but I can't remember the fine details)

sceptre

Originally posted by Victor
Some airlines offer MEPs, etc. free upgrades - hence business class may be full, but they may not be paying full price.

Ah the old "get expenses for the full business fare because they don't ask for receipts, book economy and ask for an upgrade" trick that certain MEPs do (I realise it's completely off-topic)

Dinarius

Victor wrote:

"The Brussels route is probably an exeption rather than the rule (what with EU and NATO HQs there)."

Only in that almost ALL the business class seats are state funded on this route. However, wherever these people fly in Europe, they fly business class. Simply, there are fewer of them on other routes.

"Also quite a few of these people are travelling on short notice and almost exclusively for business, so it lends itself to be expensively priced."

Surely the points at issue here are that: a. Spending tax payers euros on business class short-haul flights is an insane waste of money?

b. Dublin Brussels is rarely full in economy and they don't always book that close to time. The default should be economy and business class only if the former is fully booked.

"If Ryanair wants part of this subsidy action, why don't they fly out of Brussels rather than Charleroi?" Ryanair doesn't have business class. But, it would be very interesting to see if the Civil Service supported it if there was a choice! ;-)

"And regarding cost per mile, of course short(ish) journies are going to be expensive per mile."

With respect, you missed the point entirely.

Hundreds of airlines fly short-haul.

The point is that, prior to Ryanair, Aer Lingus royally screwed those travelling to Brussels and London, so much so that they made them the world's most expensive routes per mile.

D.

parsi

Originally posted by Dinarius
Victor wrote:

"The Brussels route is probably an exeption rather than the rule (what with EU and NATO HQs there)."

Only in that almost ALL the business class seats are state funded on this route. However, wherever these people fly in Europe, they fly business class. Simply, there are fewer of them on other routes.

Whether you fly business class depends a lot on whether the cost is refundable by a third party organisation. Most civil servants fly economy..

"Also quite a few of these people are travelling on short notice and almost exclusively for business, so it lends itself to be expensively priced."

Surely the points at issue here are that: a. Spending tax payers euros on business class short-haul flights is an insane waste of money?

It is a fact of life that booking closer to time involves higher costs, also changinge conomy flights eg in the case of a meeting running over adds greatly to the cost.


"If Ryanair wants part of this subsidy action, why don't they fly out of Brussels rather than Charleroi?" Ryanair doesn't have business class. But, it would be very interesting to see if the Civil Service supported it if there was a choice! ;-)

If ryanair want the business traffic (and I imgaine they don't because the business group would be vocal in cases of missed/delayed flights) they should fly to central airports. It is no use flying on to Brussels for a meeting and having to spend half your time getting to central Brussels. This adds cost and other overheads.

However all that aside If an airport wants to give Ryanair advantageous charges then they should be let do it...

Dinarius

"Whether you fly business class depends a lot on whether the cost is refundable by a third party organisation. Most civil servants fly economy.."

This is simply untrue.

I know many of the CS travelling between Dublin and Brussels and I can assure you that it is their departments that are paying.

No one is running around trying to recoup money spent from third parties.

Personally, I hope that AL and RYA thrive on this route. It's the only way that the rest of us will be able to afford it regularly.

But, the issue of this de facto state funding of AL is a trump card that RYA should play in the event of a showdown.

D.

vinnyfitz

As I understand it many civil servants fares to Bxls meetings are actually reclaimed by their Department from the EU. (This removes the incentive for the Depts insisting on their staff flying cheaply. "Sure if the EU is paying for the Greeks to fly biz class why shouldn't they pay for us....")

On the main point Dinarius I agree with you. European consumers interests will not be served by an anti Charleroi judgement. This whole thing is driven by the big European airports club afraid of competition.

parsi

Originally posted by Dinarius
"Whether you fly business class depends a lot on whether the cost is refundable by a third party organisation. Most civil servants fly economy.."

This is simply untrue.

I know many of the CS travelling between Dublin and Brussels and I can assure you that it is their departments that are paying.

No one is running around trying to recoup money spent from third parties.


D.

Well whenever I fly its economy and whenever my colleagues fly its economy unless the travel costs are refundable from third parties such as EU organisations...

If Ryanair flew into Brussels they too would get the business traffic and the "defacto state subsidy". But I still believe that Ryanair don't want heavy business traffic because business customers are more demanding , more vocal and want to go to centrally located airports.