DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

reboot

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

If you ever buy another one make sure it's DAB+. Many UK DAB radiios (particularly the Roberts models) are standard DAB, so useless for the commercial multiplex in Dublin and Cork. The newer Pure radio mow have DAB+ as standard.

I am sure this has been mentioned before.Portability,ie batteries are a major drawback with Dab radios?

Andy454

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

The only problem is you're tied to your broadband connection, so once you move away from the house that's it, or in the event of a power cut when the broadband fails.

If we had subscription free internet radios running off the 3G (or 4G ?) or mobile broadband network that would be different matter.

Does the technology exist for this type of scenario ?

I currently have an O2 Wifi dongle in the car boot connected permanently to 12v socket using usb car adapter - 10 euros a month for 15GB.

I have intune radio and sirius radio app on my iphone connected via aux port on car stereo - I now get every internet radio station crystal clear with CD quality sound - BBC Radio 1,2,3,4,5,6 WS, I get all the sirius radio stations E-Street Radio, Howard Stern, 80's, 90's 00's radio!!

No longer do I have to listen to Doom and gloom, endless adverts, or brutal music & inane chatter!

My car is a fun place to be in the morning, I'm so much more relaxed on the road and my mood for the day is completely different!

The Chris evans show is fantastic - he played Led Zepplin -ramble on the other morning and it just lifted me for the entire day!!

Two weeks ago i was on the way home and Simon Mayo's all request drive time played Born to run just as I hit the motorway - it was awesome!!

Even the conversation is enjoyable!

No endless drone about taxes, economy etc.... just entertainment where it's needed...

Coverage from O2 Dongle is superb - I've travelled across country from Galway / Westport to Dublin, Wexford to Dublin, Carlingford to Dublin - The entire city centre and sub-urban area - because its "outdoors" the O2 dongle doesn't seem to have too many issues with coverage...

Trick of the Tail

Yes, I'm sure it works for you, although not perfectly, there are places and times when you'll lose reception of those internet stations.

I know, because I do it too.

However, while it will work when there's just you and me and a handful of other people doing this, it won't work if the same numbers of people that listen to FM Radio try to.

It's not broadcast you see; you're setting up a point to point link to your phone from the cellular network.

That network has a finite and actually, on a cell-by-cell basis, not very high capacity.

So every time someone connects to a cell and streams a radio station, they're taking up some of the capacity of that cell. Therefore if too many people try to stream at once, they'll fill it up, and no one else will be able to connect.

And you'd be surprised just how few streams it takes to max out a cell. Could be as few as 10.

By the way, the 3G network gives priority to voice calls, so if a cell is full and you're listening to an audio stream on it, it's likely to dump you off if someone else tries to make a voice call.

That's why internet streaming while mobile will never replace broadcast radio, be it FM or DAB.

galtee boy

Andy454, I'm very interested in this. I have tried using my smartphone connected via aux port also, but just using the phone's own in built mobile broadband. It works, but is very prone to dropouts, as the phone loses its broadband connection while driving, presumably as I hit reception black spots along the road. Like you, I like BBC radio, especially Five Live for the sport etc. it sounds like the dongle is far more stable and reliable signal wise. Do you get any signal failures at all ? Also, I'm curious to know why you have the dongle in the boot, sealed by metal all around ? Would it not be better inside the back window for example ?

Andy454

The only drop out I've experienced to date is crossing under the N4 bridge at superquinn lucan, presumably because I'm between solid rock at this point.

But It merely pauses for about 2 seconds and continues from the point of signal drop out - I don't even get fm radio at this point - fault of crap boot lid antenna!

It works perfect for me otherwise, although 90% of my journeys are in and around the city.

You can set the buffer to a much higher rate 30 seconds to a minute, which should give you enough time to avoid dropouts!

The other great thing about BBC radio is they're using mp4 encapsulation technologies which means streams are optimized which means you don't need major bit rates to maintain stable connection!!

Dongle is in the boot as there is a handy power port which remains on regardless of ignition, so I can leave it permanently switched on and connected - I only have to connect the phone to the stereo and open the radio app - which has a car mode too!

Faraday cage effect doesn't seem to bother it too much either...

I'm also within about 3 - 4 seconds of BBC 5 o'clock time check

Andy454

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Yes, I'm sure it works for you, although not perfectly, there are places and times when you'll lose reception of those internet stations.

I know, because I do it too.

However, while it will work when there's just you and me and a handful of other people doing this, it won't work if the same numbers of people that listen to FM Radio try to.

It's not broadcast you see; you're setting up a point to point link to your phone from the cellular network.

That network has a finite and actually, on a cell-by-cell basis, not very high capacity.

So every time someone connects to a cell and streams a radio station, they're taking up some of the capacity of that cell. Therefore if too many people try to stream at once, they'll fill it up, and no one else will be able to connect.

And you'd be surprised just how few streams it takes to max out a cell. Could be as few as 10.

By the way, the 3G network gives priority to voice calls, so if a cell is full and you're listening to an audio stream on it, it's likely to dump you off if someone else tries to make a voice call.

That's why internet streaming while mobile will never replace broadcast radio, be it FM or DAB.

Not sure if your totally right here - Vodafone were able to do udp streaming of cnn/ sky tv channels a few years ago over 3G to demonstrate its awesome power! If enough demand, operators will stream the stations themselves..

with 4G technology and mp4 codecs, I think it will be quite possible for mobile internet radio to make conventional broadcasting techniques obsolete.

DAB's day has passed, I've a unit that I can't flog for a tenner! (currently a paper weight) with less than 10 radio stations, 3 of which sound awful with 96kilobit bitrate! brutal battery life and poor signal strength, even with its meter and a half whip antenna. it can rarely maintain reliable signal levels in the top floor of my office block in the south city centre with a clear line of sight to three rock.... (mostly down to noisy psu units from pcs!)

With bandwidth increasing mobile internet radio is the future...

Trick of the Tail

I am right. UDP is not going to be universally adopted on the public internet for 'broadcast' because its immensely inefficient. Packets flying all over the place.

A demonstration is one thing, use by thousands of people another.

4G won't cure it either, since you need very good signal strengths to get the throughput.

Any anyway, why would the mobile phone companies provide huge amounts of bandwidth and infrastructure so people can stream a radio station from the other side of the world? Why would it be worth their while?

Noise from computer PSUs doesn't affect DAB. DAB hasn't been fully implemented here yet; it's certainly not had its day: Germany is pushing it forward and as they are our masters you can be assured that it'll become an EU mandate before long.

The BAI are legally obliged to increase diversity and listener choice; there is no other way of them doing this than to roll out DAB.

DAB won't replace FM, and internet-delivered radio will still grow, but all three media will co-exist.

mike65

Was it tech expert Pat Rabbitte who suggested that 4G was the future of radio? I think so.
DAB isn't the replacement for FM that the authorities would like to it be but it'll sure be a better bet than mobile radio. How many nodes feeding how much bandwidth would be required?

STB

The biggest objectors to dab have been the licence holders themselves.

Long live Optimod driven FM!

Trick of the Tail

The current FM licence holders were asked by the BAI a couple of years ago of they'd like DAB, with the added competition it would bring.

They said no.

Surprise, surprise. Turkeys and Christmas.

I don't think DAB will replace FM, there's no need for it to. But it should be used as an incremental medium for smaller, specialist programming stations.

And Optimod on DAB sounds great too!

Capt'n Midnight

reboot wrote: »

I am sure this has been mentioned before.Portability,ie batteries are a major drawback with Dab radios?

portable DAB has to beat a smartphone and internet radio at the top of the market.

Given the processing power of the average smartphone getting DAB (with an API) into them might be the best way of getting portable DAB receivers, but then every other portable DAB player would be as dead as a digital camera.


The bottom of the market is getting a pound shop radio to listen to something while waiting for the ferry.

Trick of the Tail

Battery life isn't an issue any more, it was in the early with power-hungry chipsets, but modern DAB chipsets are much more efficient.

I've a couple of portable DAB radios, they work fine on battery.

watty

They are STILL rubbish battery life compared to an decent Analogue Radio! Of course battery life is still an issue.

Even some post 1953 Valve Portable sets will beat ANY Dab radio for battery running cost!

Also they need x6 more TX sites and x3 more spectrum to have proper coverage and better than the best possible for VHF-FM. Why should an essentially obsolete Digital technology that's much less "green", poorer quality, poorer coverage and marginal other benefits be supported?

watty

But it should be used as an incremental medium for smaller, specialist programming stations.

The Internet does that far better.

Mr. Rabbit

The Cush wrote: »

This site indicates that they may not be DAB+ - http://www.digicomparison.com/portableplus.html#Roberts

Yep, that's what I thought Cush.

Roberts really need to address this problem ASAP as their radios could become obselete if the UK ever adopts DAB+ (isn't there a DAB+ trial ongoing in the Brighton area ?). The fact that virtually all the Digital One stations are now in mono surely means this could be a posisibility at some stage ?

I think if I was buying a DAB radio in the UK I'd steer well clear of Roberts, at least for the time being, for this very reason.

As far as I'm aware, all the new Pure models have DAB+ e.g. the Pure One Classic, Pure One Elite II, Pure mini, Pure move 400D etc.

Trick of the Tail

watty wrote: »

They are STILL rubbish battery life compared to an decent Analogue Radio! Of course battery life is still an issue.

Even some post 1953 Valve Portable sets will beat ANY Dab radio for battery running cost!

Also they need x6 more TX sites and x3 more spectrum to have proper coverage and better than the best possible for VHF-FM. Why should an essentially obsolete Digital technology that's much less "green", poorer quality, poorer coverage and marginal other benefits be supported?

Jeez I don't mind criticism of the medium, but not when it's totally incorrect!

I've a portable DAB radio here, its battery life is very similar to another FM portable I have.

And your second para is just not true! Coverage from a DAB site with 10dB less erp than an FM is similar. I've tested it.

And the DAB in question is carrying 13 stations, not one. And with a single frequency network you need less spectrum, not more, than an FM network.

I'm not saying DAB is better than FM, but it isn't worse in those criteria!

watty

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

I've a portable DAB radio here, its battery life is very similar to another FM portable I have.

And your second para is just not true! Coverage from a DAB site with 10dB less erp than an FM is similar. I've tested it.

Your FM Radio is either rubbish or you are not comparing size and cost of batteries. Even a 1964 AM/FM set beats any DAB set for running cost. The same running time is not relevant if the FM set is 2 x AA cells and the DAB set 4 x D cells (as an example, assuming both are Alkaline).

Your second statement is meaningless. DAB suffers from Digital Cliff. It is either OK, distorted (AKA Bubbling Mud) or NOTHING. So for the SAME mobile coverage as AM/FM in UK they already estimate about x6 "fill in sites" needed.

The Spectrum of FM vs DAB is irrelevant. It's DAB as it currently is vs what it could be. For the number of stations being offered on DAB their needs to be about x3 more spectrum (i.e. x3 as many Muxes) as present or 1/3rd as many stations. The current bit rate is too low. Quality is ghastly.

There is a limit to size of SFN also. There is no shortage of Band III spectrum. It's pure greed to have poor bit rate and over stuff DAB muxes.

Also Irish DAB (rather than UK) has pointless content vs AM & FM. The only worthwhile Irish DAB Channels have more FM coverage and Irish DAB lacks and will lack many popular AM & FM stations. The Extra DAB /DTT radio stations are a niche Ghetto easily duplicated by your own play lists on Home Media Centre or phone and at too poor quality.

I design state of the art systems. There is no point to DAB technology or content as it is currently being delivered in UK and Ireland.

mike65

*rubs hands*

When transmission doctors differ patients die (or summat)

watty

Are you a Buoy or a Ghoul?

I shouldn't argue with Fans.

Trick of the Tail

DAB isn't being offered in Ireland at present, aside from RTE's limited offering and the two independent trials which are not 'services', so you can't compare.

Re SFN, at least it's do-able with DAB, and works fine. I know, it's also possible with FM, but no-one's doing it and are not likely to.

And re signal strengths, experiments here do not bear out what you say. In the south east, a DAB signal 10dB down from a co-located FM transmitter showed useful signal strength and coverage very similar to the FM. Tried it, fact. When Zenith Classic Rock was on FM and being carried on the DAB, I could drive around the south east listening to either outlet with a very similar coverage.

A transmitter coverage area could quite happily accomodate more than three DAB muxes, and if using DAB+ that could include 20 stations per mux. That's 60 stations. The FM band can't accomodate that.

Bit rates too low? I agree that this is the case in the UK, but the UK DAB model shouldn't be held up as an example - they've made a hash of it in a number of ways. Here we should be using DAB+, newer technology, more efficient, better quality per bitrate.

The point is this: For the BAI to accede to their legal obligations to increase diversity and listenber choice they will have to licence more stations, which should be specialist and niche formatted.

Per area, there is not enough spectrum on FM. DAB is the only other broadcast medium possible.

DAB will never replace FM, there's no need for it to. But it can increment it.

galtee boy

Has anyone got any experience of this ?

http://www.dension.com/product/webradio-fm

Capt'n Midnight

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Per area, there is not enough spectrum on FM. DAB is the only other broadcast medium possible.

Being the devil's advocate I don't see what DAB can offer that can't already be covered by FM / internet radio on a smartphone

The national broadband scheme means that most of the country has just about enough 3G coverage for internet radio. (if you have a decent contract) http://www.listenlive.eu/ireland.html - from 32kb up

DAB will never replace FM, there's no need for it to. But it can increment it.

It's the niche market for people who want stations they can't get via FM , and don't have smartphones.

Older people are well used to tuning into different stations as they move out of range. Younger people are used to mobile internet.

Trick of the Tail

I already explained what DAB can provide that broadband (however delivered) cannot.

And don't get me started on the national broadband scheme. That was just a typically half-arsed, ill-thought out idea that resulted in a mobile phone operator getting a load of taxpayer's cash to improve their mobile phone network.

You cannot - I repeat cannot view radio delivered by 3G, 4G or any kind of broadband, as a replacement or competitor for FM. It is not broadcast, it is point-to-point data communication. As previously explained, ad nauseum, each listener consumes some of the finite bandwidth, so no internet mobile network can support thousands of listeners.

A single DAB multiplex running DAB+ can carry around 20 good quality programmes. Conceivably, there is spectrum to have over 100 muxes in one area. That's a hell of a lot of potential niche-programmed radio stations being broadcast.

Surely we all want more smaller, specialist, niche, indigenous radio stations? Why the opposition?

Capt'n Midnight

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

I already explained what DAB can provide that broadband (however delivered) cannot.

And don't get me started on the national broadband scheme. That was just a typically half-arsed, ill-thought out idea that resulted in a mobile phone operator getting a load of taxpayer's cash to improve their mobile phone network.

yeah it's pants , it was more to show that there are plenty of 3G masts out there so the vast majority of the population has access to internet radio if they really wanted it.

I'm not suggesting mobile internet is a replacement for FM. The only real advantage I can see is the transmitter uses less power.

I am saying mobile internet undermines hand portable DAB. Thousands of times more stations worldwide. Zero receiver cost for anyone who already has a smartphone. Coverage will increase over time too.

A single DAB multiplex running DAB+ can carry around 20 good quality programmes. Conceivably, there is spectrum to have over 100 muxes in one area. That's a hell of a lot of potential niche-programmed radio stations being broadcast.

Surely we all want more smaller, specialist, niche, indigenous radio stations? Why the opposition?

Assuming the main commercial stations stay on FM and people regularly use streaming to access stations, how much power is then needed per DAB user ?


BBC iPlayer Radio is getting 74 million requests per month.

Things like tunein mean I can get UK community radio as well as what is quite possibly the biggest niche station out there, BBC Radio 4, on a device I already have in my pocket.

Macy0161

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

yeah it's pants , it was more to show that there are plenty of 3G masts out there so the vast majority of the population has access to internet radio if they really wanted it.

3G Coverage is still pretty patchy. We were away at the weekend and didn't have the coverage for calls, let alone mobile internet/ broadband!

Capt'n Midnight

Macy0161 wrote: »

3G Coverage is still pretty patchy. We were away at the weekend and didn't have the coverage for calls, let alone mobile internet/ broadband!

Would you have bought a separate device to fill that gap ?


I'm still trying to ID a mass market for DAB while FM still exists.

Also remember just how many mobile phones and car radios support FM. That's a huge inertia and the advertisers would not be happy.

As for car radios, there is a lot of truth in that picture where 10 years ago people wanted a car radio with bells and whistles, controls, flashing lights but now only want a volume control and some way to connect their media player.

I can't see even a niche market for DAB where there was enough audience to support adverts.

Macy0161

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Would you have bought a separate device to fill that gap ?


I'm still trying to ID a mass market for DAB while FM still exists.

A dab radio is on the list actually! Wifi and 3g coverage can be hit and miss at camp sites, but i guess dab is at the moment too. They're not really committing though - lions tour matches are rte 1 extra but also on long wave, so it's really only the children with rte junior radio.

Capt'n Midnight

Been thinking about it, and apart from news / concerts / special events / traffic and weather reports much of what's on the radio doesn't have to be live. So you could get nearly with podcasts / listen again / downloads especially with niche shows or childrens channels.

Like I said I'm still trying to ID a niche in the market that could support DAB in the face of FM (for all the live stuff and general background noise) and internet radio for really niche stuff and downloaded programs.

Yes I understand that some people would desire them, but I can't see enough of them in use to support commercial rollout.

Even at a campsite you could use Saorview , Satellite radio (even if it's that nasty tiny Lidl briefcase job running off 12V ) to get stuff. Or just carry a decent directional FM antenna.



DAB might have a future if it gets bundled with lots of smartphones.
Whitenoise might reduce FM coverage but would presumably increase 3G so meh.

Andy454

The big problem in Ireland, is the use of the word "Trial", this wait and see attitude means the medium is ultimately doomed to failure....

If you don't expand a service, advertise it, publish it, get notoriety with it and then ultimately put nothing on it, is it any wonder that no one is going to listen to it??

DAB is the future of radio, but it needs to be made commercially attractive to broadcasters and not sat on by an incumbent afraid of competition, afraid of change and afraid of independent thought!

There should be at least 5 transponders operating across the country by now.

There should be 2 public and 3 subscription.

The 2 public should have the national broadcaster and free commercial.

The 3 subscription should have the bbc, npr, wrn services along with commercial free music, news and entertainment similar inform to xm or Sirius.

pricing should be approx. 12euro per month per radio with ability to listen online and all dealer bought cars should be fitted with a compatible DAB radio to start with.

There are plenty of fantastic content radio shows out there - BBC have the Graham Norton Radio Show on Saturday morning, Sirus has howard stern, there is no good reason for every irish broadcast radio program to be home produced - there should be a mix similar to tv of both home grown and imported shows.

If you put out a good service people will listen and subscribe - we're not getting fewer cars on the road, private transport is rocketing....

watty

There is not a single all band radio in Irish shops, or even with MW, that has DAB. It's even more limited than an FM only radio.

If DAB really had worthwhile extra stations, full coverage, decent radios with the bands for non-local radio (and DAB can never replace very local FM economically), decent battery life, decent bit rate / better quality ... But it has none of those. The only supporters are some of the incumbent PSBs and a few technology for technology sake fans. There are better solutions to having more stations on the air if that is the issue.

But part of it is to not make "ghetto-ised" Digital sets with dumbed down or no VHF-FM and no LW or MW.

There maybe was one set with all the main AM bands, DAB, DRM and VHF-FM. It seems nearly unobtainable and is very expensive.

DAB was too early and ill thought out. The proposal to use DRM+ on band I is better (full coverage), but as with DAB if the cost is too high to have decent bit rate it will be substandard to FM.

Subscription Radio would never work. That's crazier than ITV/OnDigital Terrestrial Pay TV.

Subscription Radio hasn't worked even with large markets.