DAB in Ireland: RTE multiplex closed

Mr. Rabbit

The areas around Scotland and near England/Scotland border that the transmissions largely cancel-out have additional MW filler transmitters

and Northern Ireland.

Two transmitters on 720 kHz (Lisnagarvey and Derry) and one on 774 kHz (Enniskillen)

watty

Antenna wrote: »

Who says it is only an external service? It was to replace RTE R1 on MW - A domestic service in the first instance with external as well.

The RTE R1 "opt-out" religious church services on Sunday mornings, and sometimes sports coverage (not on FM, only on 252LW and digital RTE R. 1Extra) are for a domestic audience and LW would be the only radio coverage geographically for most of the country (unless you include radio on DTT).

Oh, I agree, but I suspect that in RTE's thinking it's an external service. Other than 28.2E satellite (not portable or convenient for Radio) there is no other full time RTE Radio or TV outside Ireland.

Internet isn't a substitute for Broadcast, but complementary. It's expensive for listener, fragile, not very portable (Mobile can't cope EVER with much streaming) and scales badly to more listeners (more listeners costs "Broadcaster" more on Internet).

Closing MW was a cynical cost saving as is current closure of Russian LW.

Trick of the Tail

Blimey, I find myself agreeing with Watty!

It is also a shame that they have effectively ruled out ever using the Athlone site for MF broadcasting again. That's a very historic site - the world's first national tx site I believe, and they've effectively abandoned it.

With the three generations of MF transmitters in situ there, it should be a museum.

Antenna

TAFKAlawhec wrote: »

The switching off of the 625 line service saw very few people left behind, in the cheapest scenario available to most people a set top box allows people to watch DVB-T services on a set with only an analogue tuner.

In relation to the Republic, what figures/estimates are there of the numbers of "people left behind" and who exactly would have been counted as being 'left behind' (for the Republic) ?
(1) viewers left with zero TV, or
(2) also including viewers who lost the national Irish stations (with ASO) but receiving FTA UK channels with their existing equipment (FTA satellite mainly and to a lesser extent MPEG2-only digital TVs in spillover areas) ?

and what estimates are there for both of the above ?

Saorview might say they got few calls post ASO, but this means very little.
There were a number of people known to me who received Irish analogue and FTA satellite who did not bother do anything and just had the UK satellite channels for a while after ASO. It wasn't the case that they couldn't afford it, or did not know, or thought there might be a last minute deferral, they just decided themselves not to do anything for a while .

Onthe3rdDay

Antenna wrote: »

Saorview might say they got few calls post ASO, but this means very little.
There were a number of people known to me who received Irish analogue and FTA satellite who did not bother do anything and just had the UK satellite channels for a while after ASO. It wasn't the case that they couldn't afford it, or did not know, or thought there might be a last minute deferral, they just decided themselves not to do anything for a while .

I know a good few like that as well, Money was tight and the attitude was that FTA satellite would keep them going for a good while. Plus there are a lot of people in the country that watch nothing that RTE put out and didn't (and still haven't bothered) to upgrade. They can still watch the rugby on the BBC and the very odd time there might be a show on RTE they can watch it on the RTE player.

watty

Tesco now has Saorview boxes €49
Of course in a few years time basic Saorview boxes will not be on sale, only high end PVRs.

Onthe3rdDay

watty wrote: »

Tesco now has Saorview boxes €49
Of course in a few years time basic Saorview boxes will not be on sale, only high end PVRs.

Sadly 49 euro is a lot of money for some people at the moment. There's also the motivation. If you're happy enough with the Satellite your motivation to purchase is low.

One person I know listens to Radio One for the Irish news and Gets a paper (the examiner) every day. They've no need for RTE television as such. Now they wouldn't have been the biggest TV watcher, but they'd still watch an hour a night.

That of course is the main problem with DAB, They would be someone that would be very interested if, (1) They could get a signal (2) and get a receiver that was half decent under 50 euro. (3) BBC Radio 4 was available on it.
Right now they listen to BBC Radio 4 and the world service on Sat or on Longwave.

Mearings

Trick of the Tail wrote: »

Blimey, I find myself agreeing with Watty!

It is also a shame that they have effectively ruled out ever using the Athlone site for MF broadcasting again. That's a very historic site - the world's first national tx site I believe, and they've effectively abandoned it.

With the three generations of MF transmitters in situ there, it should be a museum.

http://www.advertiser.ie/athlone/article/67905/views-sought-on-the-future-of-rt-transmitter-at-moydrum

watty

Onthe3rdDay wrote: »

That of course is the main problem with DAB, They would be someone that would be very interested if, (1) They could get a signal (2) and get a receiver that was half decent under 50 euro. (3) BBC Radio 4 was available on it.
Right now they listen to BBC Radio 4 and the world service on Sat or on Longwave.

There will NEVER be a decent Portable DAB or any other Digital Radio Receiver.

1) Ergonomics of Digital radio a disaster. This is complex to explain. But I will publish an article on it.
2) Unless some unbelievable breakthrough the power consumption will remain massively higher. Currently x6 worse than a 1950s VALVE battery portable!
3) No graceful degradation of coverage. All or nothing is useless for portable/Mobile.

For DAB specifically there are two other problems:
1) Coverage is best suited for Regional and National Stations.
2) Quality is rubbish. DAB+ won't solve it as it would be used to double number of stations. To give better than FM quality 256K MP2 or 192K AAC is needed*. Typical DAB is 128K MP2 or DAB+ 64K AAC.

More stations and better Quality on an LW/MW/VHF-FM Radio than DAB would ever have in Ireland. RTE should stop wasting money on it.

(*AAC can only give same quality as MP2 at lower bit rates such as 128K and 64K, which for Stereo is already far poorer than FM and can have more distortion than AM! People with hearing aid or damaged hearing need less compression. The MP2 / MP3 / AAC lossy compression model suits average hearing.)

StreetLight

There has been an interesting development today. When I switched on my DAB receivers, all stations on the RTE Multiplex were showing as 'Off Air' or 'Not Available'. I performed a re-scan and all stations re-appeared, but with a new addition.

'Radio Bang Bang' is now being transmitted in the DAB2 format at 80kbps in AAC+ mono. Apparently, it's to co-incide with the Radiodays conference currently being held in Dublin.
http://www.radiodayseurope.com/articles/radio-bang-bang

watty

StreetLight wrote: »

When I switched on my DAB receivers, all stations on the RTE Multiplex were showing as 'Off Air' or 'Not Available'. I performed a re-scan and all stations re-appeared, but with a new addition.

Only one example of the stupidity of the User Interface side of Digital Radio.

Mr. Rabbit

Had a listen today to the RTE multiplex from Clermont Cairn on my favourite picnic table in Portavogie with my new Roberts Play (which receives DAB+) and noticed Radio 1, Radio 2 and Lyric FM were all broadcasting at 160 kbps. R NaG appears to be in mono at 80 kbps. Also received were the new DAB+ tests at 48 kbps.

The Roberts play is an excellent wee set with good sound quality. It's the first Roberts UK model with DAB+ (as far as I'm aware) which makes it future proof and usable abroad (and in the ROI). Selectivity and sensitivity on FM is also excellent. Highly recommended.

The Cush

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

It's the first Roberts UK model with DAB+ (as far as I'm aware) which makes it future proof and usable abroad (and in the ROI).

The ecologic15 clock radio is also DAB+, purchased one last autumn, I think its been on the market since early 2013. There are other DAB+ from around that time too.

watty

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

The Roberts play is an excellent wee set with good sound quality. It's the first Roberts UK model with DAB+ (as far as I'm aware) which makes it future proof and usable abroad (and in the ROI).

No, it's Glen -Dimplex built down to a price. Poor audio quality.
Not "future proof" as DAB and DAB+ even may get shuttered and few countries are committed to DAB or DAB+.

Does it do other Digital Radio modes (I don't think so). But Digital Radio is INHERENTLY a failure. Satellite and Internet don't Replace AM/FM, but are Complementary.

LW? MW? SW? Easy to retune VHF?
Extended VHF?
Brazil and USA are adding below 88MHz (already used in Japan and Eastern Europe) to FM.
Some sets since 1964 have covered East European/Russian FM, USA FM and Japan FM bands.

You need 256Kbps DAB or 192kbps DAB+ to be equivalent quality to decent VHF-FM.

Souriau

Most stations on Digital One are in mono and either 64kbps or 80kbps
Absolute Radio is 112kbps Joint Stereo
Classic FM is 128kbps in Joint Stereo
On BBC Mux
BBC Radio 1, 2 & 4 is 128kbps and Joint Stereo
BBC Radio 3 is 192kbps and Stereo
BBC Radio 5 Live, 5 Sport and World Service is 80kbps and mono

Mr. Rabbit

]But Digital Radio is INHERENTLY a failure.

I'd strongly disagree.

Digital radio is fine when there's a good signal, and around here it's excellent both from Carnmoney Hill and Colinward Mountain. Currently 29 stations at this location compared to around 14 or 15 on FM. I'd hardly call that a failure. With Digital 2 about to launch over the next couple of years, and space for another 4 or 5 stations at least on the NI local multiplex, we should eventually have around 45-50 stations on DAB. That's pretty good choice wise.

Satellite and Internet don't Replace AM/FM, but are Complementary.

Satellite and internet radio are OK, but the problem with both is that neither are portable or available for the car. So I doubt either will replace AM or FM. Add to the fact that the signal on internet radios isn't tne most reliable, even at the best of times.........

The other good thing about DAB is that the technology is readily available on the high street That was always the problem with DRM. It's going to take a lot to knock DAB off it's perch in my opinion.

I agree with you about sound quality, but even 112 kbps stereo sounds pretty good on a portable radio through headphones, and 64 kbps is perfectly acceptable for a speech based station.

DAB+ is obviously the future, but I think standard DAB at present isn't all that bad a medium for portable radio. Like everything else, it's all down to investment and improving the network.

Mr. Rabbit

Souriau wrote: »

Most stations on Digital One are in mono and either 64kbps or 80kbps
Absolute Radio is 112kbps Joint Stereo
Classic FM is 128kbps in Joint Stereo
On BBC Mux
BBC Radio 1, 2 & 4 is 128kbps and Joint Stereo
BBC Radio 3 is 192kbps and Stereo
BBC Radio 5 Live, 5 Sport and World Service is 80kbps and mono

Capital Extra is 112 kbps joint stereo.

On the local NI multiplex Dowtown, Cool FM, BBC Radio Ulster, and Citybeat are all 128 kbps joint stereo. Heat Radio is 80 kbps mono. There' s also room for 4 additional stations at 128 kbps joint stereo, or more at lower bit rates.

galtee boy

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

I'd strongly disagree.

Digital radio is fine when there's a good signal, and around here it's excellent both from Carnmoney Hill and Colinward Mountain. Currently 29 stations at this location compared to around 14 or 15 on FM. I'd hardly call that a failure. With Digital 2 about to launch over the next couple of years, and space for another 4 or 5 stations at least on the NI local multiplex, we should eventually have around 45-50 stations on DAB. That's pretty good choice wise.



Satellite and internet radio are OK, but the problem with both is that neither are portable or available for the car. So I doubt either will replace AM or FM. Add to the fact that the signal on internet radios isn't tne most reliable, even at the best of times.........

The other good thing about DAB is that the technology is readily available on the high street That was always the problem with DRM. It's going to take a lot to knock DAB off it's perch in my opinion.

I agree with you about sound quality, but even 112 kbps stereo sounds pretty good on a portable radio through headphones, and 64 kbps is perfectly acceptable for a speech based station.

DAB+ is obviously the future, but I think standard DAB at present isn't all that bad a medium for portable radio. Like everything else, it's all down to investment and improving the network.

I disagree with you on DAB v Internet Radio. DAB might be fine in NI, but there is no DAB coverage in most of ROI except three cities. On the other hand, Internet radio is far more widely available. Almost all towns in ROI have a cell tower giving good 3G coverage and more and more of these cell towers are being upgraded to 4g, the motorway network has almost full 3G coverage, so bar you are travelling in the most remote areas ( I admit there are rural areas with poor coverage ), Internet drop out is far less than it used to be. I use a smart phone with Tunein App and Bluetooth in the car and I have access to crystal clear reception of all BBC stations etc, can listen to Dublins 98fm while in Cork etc. I'll never be able to that on DAB in ROI. At home, I use an internet radio all the time, even to listen to RTE radio as the DAB coverage is crap and indeed the FM signal isn't always what it should be either. A set of headphones turns your smart phone into a portable radio, so in the car or out walking, portable internet radio is no bother. In these days of much better broadband coverage, much cheaper packages for having internet on your phone, it doesn't cost a fortune to have the world of internet radio at your finger tips.

Mr. Rabbit

but there is no DAB coverage in most of ROI except three cities

I know. That's a major problem in the ROI, and still in many parts of NI.

If the transmitter network was there then DAB would be fine, but it isn't. The ROI for some reason refuse to invest in DAB, which is why it's a mess. Saorview radio services are fine, but again the problem is portability and reception in the car.

Portable and car radios running subscription free of the 3G or 4G network would be the answer. I'm not sure if the technology for this exists yet, but it would be much better than DAB if it could be done.

Mr. Rabbit

I use a smart phone with Tunein App and Bluetooth in the car and I have access to crystal clear reception of all BBC stations etc, can listen to Dublins 98fm while in Cork etc. I'll never be able to that on DAB in ROI.

The problem there is that unless you're on unlimited internet on your mobile phone tariff the data will use up very quickly if you listen to internet radio a lot. Only T mobile (EE) and 3 mobile do unlimited internet packages up here, and they cost £20-£25 a month, so although it's a solution it's not really a cheap one.

galtee boy

Mr. Rabbit wrote: »

The problem there is that unless you're on unlimited internet on your mobile phone tariff the data will use up very quickly if you listen to internet radio a lot. Only T mobile (EE) and 3 mobile do unlimited internet packages up here, and they cost £20-£25 a month, so although it's a solution it's not really a cheap one.

Fair point, personally I have a 3GB monthly allowance and I find it allows me to do normal browsing along with listening to internet radio in the car. To be honest , I could use it for two hours some days in the car, but then it could be a few days before I would use it again. I do admit, if someone was steaming for four or five hours a day, every day, you would need an unlimited package. But I will say, if I was a sales rep or such, that was on the road everyday, I would definitely pay for an unlimited package.

I've just done some research from another forum, it is calculated that at a good bit rate of 160 Kbps , you should get 29 hours of listening from a 2GB allowance and at one hour a day, five days a week, you would get approx 6 weeks listening for your 2GB !

Souriau

Mobile data is base on 30 days contract, either monthly contract or Pay as you Go. no matter what data one buy in NI, at the end of the 30 days the data is gone, weather one use it all or not.

dabfan

The DB Digital Broadcast DAB/DAB+ trial is now on air in Cork city from Churchfield (North side of the city).
Service include All 80s+, RiRa, UCB, Sunshine, Amazing Radio and Zenith - both DAB and DAB+

h7nlrp2v0g5u48

dabfan wrote: »

The DB Digital Broadcast DAB/DAB+ trial is now on air in Cork city from Churchfield (North side of the city).
Service include All 80s+, RiRa, UCB, Sunshine, Amazing Radio and Zenith - both DAB and DAB+

when did tne trial start in Cork?

dabfan

It only started last week Natashob6

DF

h7nlrp2v0g5u48

dabfan wrote: »

It only started last week Natashob6

DF

Ah right I think Galway is next in line for the trial.

dabfan

I think Limerick is the next stage of the DAB trail, but there's no date for that at the moment.

The Cush

natashaob6 wrote: »

Ah right I think Galway is next in line for the trial.

http://www.dbdb.ie/trial-broadcasts/

Galway isn't on their list but was in the initial press report. According to a reply from Dusty (Rhodes?) they won't be rolling out the trial in Galway.

dusty February 5, 2014 at 10:02 am .

Hi Harry,

In short, DAB is not available in Galway. From my view, DAB won’t be on-air in Galway until the BAI licences a national commercial multiplex.

Cheers,
Dusty

http://www.dbdb.ie/q2-2013-report

h7nlrp2v0g5u48

Thanks for the info The Cush. I wonder when will the bai issue a commercial dab licence. I suppose if commercial broadcasters were enthusiastic enough about launching a national commercial dab service a licence would be issued.

Trick of the Tail

The existing commercial broadcasters are the reason why the BAI haven't yet pressed ahead with commercial DAB.

They're frightened about more competition, and the BAI are protectionist.

It's smaller, independent potential broadcasters who need to press the BAI, stations like Zenith for example, not existing FMers.

There is absolutely no point in duplicating FM content on DAB.