What postcode for IRL?

davros

ComReg held a symposium on the introduction of postcodes on Monday. They will publish a document summarising the opinions expressed in the new year. Some points:

- An Post will not say that they want postcodes. Their OCR address-matching system has been well-described on this thread. They claim the addition of a code will not improve accuracy of OCR. I would dispute that in the case of handwritten addresses (especially if envelopes came with pre-printed squares for the postal code, as in many countries) but the real issue is that An Post will not contribute to the cost of introducing postal codes. Given their financial situation, that's quite reasonable.

- The term "Postal Code" was criticised because it implies the code is only useful for routing of mail. In fact, many companies, groups, individuals can see uses for some "location identifier". Number crunchers like the ESRI and CSO, for example. Or the ESB for dispatching service crews, pizza delivery businesses, and so on.

- Our current addresses are not going to be standardised in any way. Townlands will remain, being seen as an important part of our heritage. The way UK postal codes were forced on Northern Ireland (along with the standardising of addresses) is widely perceived as a disaster.

- The UK system has proved awkward since the codes themselves are so tied to particular locations and boundaries. As the country develops, the codes have to be continually remapped which is an expensive and cumbersome process.

To me, it seems that a finely-grained system (capable of identifying a single building, perhaps) would meet the requirements of all users. The arguments against this include harder-to-remember codes and perhaps lower acceptance and use.

Our current address system is extremely difficult to deal with if you are not An Post and are not a subscriber to their GeoDirectory service (EUR64,000 to subscribe, EUR12,000 per year thereafter, so it was said at the symposium). A finely-grained postal code system would open up so many new applications and make current services more efficient. I believe the utility of using a code will quickly impress itself on the public and they will be keen to use it when it means a better chance that their pizza will come more quickly or their Amazon parcel will not go astray.

I wouldn't worry too much about long codes. The way technology and software moves on, the number of these things you have to keep in your head will greatly diminish anyway. I don't remember telephone numbers anymore - they are all programmed into my mobile phone.

Floater

Originally posted by davros
ComReg held a symposium on the introduction of postcodes on Monday.

1. People should surely be looking at the existing Geodata infrastructural resources and building on them rather than creating something totally new.

Many countries that have four digit postcodes for public use also have underlying codes that identify individual households and other premises. These additional resolution codes form part of the sorting system database and could appear in a Geodirectory type product. Consumers don’t have to bother with them because like the An Post system, most sorting systems can scan the entire address and match with the building record in their Geodatabases.

In Zurich for example, the postcode for Bahnhofstrasse is 8001.

The detailed building code for Bahnhofstrasse 93 is 8001 003 0001 0093

A building on the other side of the street eg Bahnhofstrasse 110 is

8001 003 0002 0110

When you call for a taxi in Zurich they ask for three things separately (if your phone number is not listed in the directory). First your postcode, second your street name and third your house number.

I suspect that if the average person in Zurich was asked by the taxi dispatcher for his full 8001 003 0002 0110 style premises number instead, he’s say you are off your tree or something similar! I can’t see Irish business users imposing such un-user friendly tactics on their customers either.

2. The Irish Geocode database already has an “address identifier” – an 8 digit number for each building in the country. Can’t the ESRI, CSO etc use that? For example it can easily be barcoded on forms being sent out and scanned when the completed document is returned. I wonder if people looking for something else actually looked at what is available?

By using the existing directory, and tagging each with a simple 4 digit postcode it would allow lookup and rapid address entry by entering a few characters that everybody can remember. The four digit postcode acts as a very efficient sieve to home in with to reduce the number of streets that appear when one enters the first few characters of a street or townland name.

--“What is your postcode please” Answer “1234”
--“What is your street name please” Answer “Main Street” operator enters “MA” and the one or two streets beginning with “MA” in postcode 1234 appear on screen. She selects the appropriate street if more than one appears.
--“What is the number of your house please” Answer “123” which is entered

By using this process one can quickly find the record for the premises with its grid reference, 8 digit premises code, etc.

A total of 6 characters entered + the house number in the above example.

Boundaries are surely not an issue in terms of premises identifier codes. Everyone will have different boundary requirements. Each building entry can be tagged with various boundary codes (eg a county code, a province code, a region code, an electoral district code, etc – whatever is required). Many of these codes are already in the Geodirectory (electoral divisions, wards, counties, whether or not the building is vacant, derelict, etc). The premises identifier can therefore be “boundaryless” as the current one seems to be. Regions are generally made up of one or more counties.

3. You don’t have to “dump” townlands to rationalize the system. You can convert the townland name into a road eg townland “Townlandia” next to the town of “Townname” becomes

123 Townlandia Road
9999 Townname

where the building in question is 123 metres out of “Townname” on the road to “Townlandia”.

I can’t see how one can have a low maintenance comprehensive database of buildings for a country without assigning house numbers to each address. The alternative is to put occupants names for each farmhouse and similar which would surely create data privacy issues for the dataset.

There is also the issue of efficiency. Probably the largest cost of making deliveries to rural addresses is driving around the place and making enquiries to find the house. Metric road and street addresses make finding rural addresses simple and don’t require full compliance from householders in terms of putting a sign outside their property with their house number for it to work.

Each property has its national grid reference in the Geodatabase. It is therefore possible for software to work out how many metres it is from the nearest town or village along the road to the townland in question and thus generate the metric building number.

4. In terms of “pizza delivery” and similar applications there is a far more efficient solution than a premises code. It provides an elegant solution because it recognizes that most business transactions today take place on the phone.

It works like this: You call the pizza or taxi or other delivery based provider. By releasing your phone CLID to them when setting up the call, they can see your full mailing address on their PC. They can click on an icon and a street map of your neighbourhood opens in a window allowing them to see where to find your house.

The system makes full provision for data privacy. Anyone who is not in the phone book is excluded. One can also ask to be in the phone book but not in this. You can block caller ID when making a call and this feature won’t work. You can also register not to receive mailings from people using the database and a flag appears on your entry. It costs about EUR 40 for the DVD which has a lot of other features too. See the link for further info on the Swiss phonebook DVD. A cheaper version is also available on CD with less data. This is sold everywhere – in supermarkets, computer shops, office supply, phone shops, etc.

Info on phonebook + Map DVD

PC Dialler accessory: http://www.swisscom.com/e-shop/categories/accessories/offers/pc_dialer_iii/pc_dialer_III-en.pdf


5. The EUR 64,000 subscription for the Irish Geodirectory is only the tip of the iceberg in terms of integrating such a complex and ill-conceived address structure into day to day systems. The Swisscom DVD provides a simple solution that scales from a single user to a large corporation using a network. ComReg is in an ideal position to leverage the phone and geo databases and provide solutions for all types of business and government user.

6. One further problem in Ireland is the availability of map data from the “Ordnance Survey”. In France and everywhere else in Europe you can get software for your Palm or Windows PDA which allows one to upload detailed digital maps from one’s PC.

To locate an address you enter a part of the town name. Up pops a list of matching towns. Select the required town. Enter a few characters of the street name and you get a list of matching street name(s). Enter a house number. The precise location of the house is marked on the map. Switch on your Bluetooth GPS and follow the voice guidance from the PDA right to the door.

Some of these GPS products have hand drawn rubbish maps of Ireland included because as far as I can see the map publishers can’t get their hands on Irish Ordnance Survey data at an economic cost. Ordnance Survey are abusing their monopoly position and everyone is paying the price.

In my view a long postcode is out of date and its implementation would be a waste of resources. Computer systems have moved on and software systems and procedures today are engineered around the person rather than the person having to accommodate the system. The big issue is unlocking the existing data held in the Geodirectory and Ordnance Survey for everyone to be able to get their hands on and employ in their business processes – whether they are a taxi operator, hairdresser or the Central Bank.

On the pure postal code front there is no doubt in my mind but that a simple code which would be widely used would (a) allow more mail to be machine sorted at the first stage level allowing cut off deadlines to be met in mechanized sorting centres and (b) increase the probability of full recognition and matching of borderline mailing labels. This would lead to a far higher percentage of correspondence being delivered next day and help reduce the appalling delays on international mail to and from the rest of Europe – where Ireland remains a basket case

These are crucial issues in terms of Ireland’s competitiveness in the global economy.


Floater

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
3. You don’t have to “dump” townlands to rationalize the system. You can convert the townland name into a road eg townland “Townlandia” next to the town of “Townname” becomes

123 Townlandia Road
9999 Townname

where the building in question is 123 metres out of “Townname” on the road to “Townlandia”.

Most town lands would have more than one road, this becomes an issue (but solvable) especially where you have clusters of houses down laneways.

Originally posted by Floater
I can’t see how one can have a low maintenance comprehensive database of buildings for a country without assigning house numbers to each address. The alternative is to put occupants names for each farmhouse and similar which would surely create data privacy issues for the dataset.

The An Post database knows everyone/thing who receives post at your address (permissible under the Data Protection Act as they reasonably need and have reasonably obtained the data). Privacy issues do arise when sharing that part of the database.

Originally posted by Floater
There is also the issue of efficiency. Probably the largest cost of making deliveries to rural addresses is driving around the place and making enquiries to find the house.

For An Post and some utilities no, couriers and contractors yes.

Originally posted by Floater
6. One further problem in Ireland is the available of map data from the “Ordnance Survey”. In France and everywhere else in Europe you can get software for your Palm or Windows PDA which allows one to upload detailed digital maps from one’s PC.

You can buy a licence (with updates) for any particular area which will provide you with a vectored (*.dwg, *.tiff) map, but I agree this is unwieldy to Joe Bloggs. Most or all OS maps are now digital (nor digitised as often said). Mapflow's product is much more usable (limited to main urban areas). Example here http://212.17.39.71/dto/content/planner.asp (zoom in for satellite pic).

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/routes/ and http://www.viamichelin.com are on a much less detailed scale http://www.viamichelin.com (can get you from postcode to postcode). Neither is ideal, but together they are great. AFAIK a Japanese company also did a digital map of Dublin for retail (paper) sale, but it appears to have been withdrawn / sold out and not updated – this may have been where Mapflow got some of their data as the maps look similar, but not the same.

Originally posted by Floater
Some of these GPS products have hand drawn rubbish maps of Ireland included because as far as I can see the map publishers can’t get their hands on Irish Ordnance Survey data at an economic cost. Ordnance Survey are abusing their monopoly position and everyone is paying the price.

OS no longer have an absolute monopoly now Mapflow (who presumably bought the database off OS or mapped from satellite) is here. There are GPS products available (€2,000 for equipment and database – database look like the one Yahoo uses) for taxi drivers and the like.

Originally posted by Floater
On the pure postal code front there is no doubt in my mind but that a simple code which would be widely used would (a) allow more mail to be machine sorted at the first stage level allowing cut off deadlines to be met in mechanized sorting centres and (b) increase the probability of full recognition and matching of borderline mailing labels. This would lead to a far higher percentage of correspondence being delivered next day and help reduce the appalling delays on international mail to and from the rest of Europe – where Ireland remains a basket case

So do we agree when granny is sending her Christmas cards she should only need a 4-5 digit code and let the post office sort it from there? Existing Dublin codes are two large (in area) to be very meaningful. 8-11 digit codes are too long for people to remember.

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
You can buy a licence (with updates) for any particular area which will provide you with a vectored (*.dwg, *.tiff) map, but I agree this is unwieldy to Joe Bloggs. Most or all OS maps are now digital (nor digitised as often said). Mapflow's product is much more usable (limited to main urban areas). Example here http://212.17.39.71/dto/content/planner.asp (zoom in for satellite pic).

http://www.aaroadwatch.ie/routes/ and http://www.viamichelin.com are on a much less detailed scale http://www.viamichelin.com (can get you from postcode to postcode). Neither is ideal, but together they are great. AFAIK a Japanese company also did a digital map of Dublin for retail (paper) sale, but it appears to have been withdrawn / sold out and not updated – this may have been where Mapflow got some of their data as the maps look similar, but not the same.
quote:

The Ordnance Survey and Geodatabase marketing are similar - ie based on customised ordering and high pricing. Could you imagine Microsoft selling Windows like this? Do you want to be able to connect to the internet. I see that will be another EUR 75. Now would you like to be able to print documents - EUR 85. There will be a media charge too of EUR 100 and we'll have your Windows ready for you within two weeks.

We need a mass market product for business users that is available off the shelf combining Geodata and maps.

The other mapping services you refer to are toys compared with the Swisscom DVD and CD products. Let's not confuse the issue by giving the impression that there is a suitable product on the market!

Floater

PS
The ViaMichelin map of Ireland is particularly appalling and inaccurate - a stark contrast with other countries on the same CD set!

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
The Ordnance Survey and Geodatabase marketing are similar - ie based on customised ordering and high pricing. Could you imagine Microsoft selling Windows like this? Do you want to be able to connect to the internet. I see that will be another EUR 75. Now would you like to be able to print documents - EUR 85. There will be a media charge too of EUR 100 and we'll have your Windows ready for you within two weeks.

No, it's more like €500 for 5 years worth of updates and print as many copies as you want, but area is limited.

Originally posted by Floater
We need a mass market product for business users that is available off the shelf combining Geodata and maps.

Indeed.

Originally posted by Floater
The ViaMichelin map of Ireland is particularly appalling and inaccurate - a stark contrast with other countries on the same CD set!

Read with the AA site, it is much better, AA give the words, ViaMichelin give the pictures (althought he M1 needs to be updated properly and the Red Book town plans need to be added). The problem is there isn't the same demand for the Irish product as there is for say the French or Swiss product.

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
The problem is there isn't the same demand for the Irish product as there is for say the French or Swiss product.

Telecom Eireann had a CD which was updated for a few years and it sold very well. It had none of the geodirectory / map features that we are talking about.

The project seems to have stalled when Eircom became a "liquidating trust".

While I believe that there is a market for this product within small, medium and large business and people on the road - we can't have a situation where there is no national product a la Swisscom Directory and the Ordnance Survey data is not available in international products like ViaMichelin Mapsonic and Microsoft Autoroute because of OS's monopolistic practices.

It all compounds with the poor road signposting - particularly R and C roads and in urban areas, absence of postal addresses for 40% of delivery points in the state, etc. etc.


Floater

davros

Originally posted by Floater
In Zurich for example, the postcode for Bahnhofstrasse is 8001.

The detailed building code for Bahnhofstrasse 93 is 8001 003 0001 0093
...
I suspect that if the average person in Zurich was asked by the taxi dispatcher for his full 8001 003 0002 0110 style premises number instead, he’s say you are off your tree or something similar!

15 digits is impractical but what about 5 or 6 or 5+4? I have lived in countries with all of these lengths of postcodes and didn't find it inconvenient.

The Irish Geocode database already has an “address identifier” – an 8 digit number for each building in the country. Can’t the ESRI, CSO etc use that?

They do use it but the guy from the ESRI said it's still not enough. They want to ask people their post code over the phone, say. Or incorporate data from other data compilers. A finely-grained postcode would be an ideal way to key different datasets together.

The four digit postcode acts as a very efficient sieve to home in with to reduce the number of streets that appear when one enters the first few characters of a street or townland name...

The software application you describe is quite complicated and relies on having access to the full address database. I would like to see small online apps where I can just type in my postcode and see my local councillors and TDs, find out what planning applications have been lodged nearby, find out if radon measurements have been logged from any of my neighbours' houses and any number of other small, innovative applications I can't imagine. No way someone is going to cobble together something like this if it needs a subscription to the expensive GeoDirectory.

Boundaries are surely not an issue in terms of premises identifier codes.

I agree. And, incidentally, I am not particularly advocating that a postal code must identify a single premises. The guy from the ESRI asked that each postal code coincide with, say, an electoral district. I think that is a mistake. It should be entirely decoupled from all other arbitary and changeable boundaries. It should also be small enough to be guaranteed to fit entirely within a single boundary of any kind so that a particular postcode maps to exactly one electoral division, county, etc.

You don’t have to “dump” townlands to rationalize the system. You can convert the townland name into a road

I'm all in favour of your metric numbering system but I just don't think it's going to happen. The problem is that a single road can slice through many townlands. Rename the road and you allocate a name to some houses that is not related to the townland they are actually in. If ComReg dares suggest this, they will have the Rural Dwellers association, An Taisce, Eamon O'Cuiv and Richard Boyd Barrett down on them like a ton of bricks for continuing the work of the nefarious British in Anglicising the countryside.

That's why I think a postal code will have to (almost) be able to stand in for a standardised address since the addresses themselves will not be touched.

By releasing your phone CLID to them when setting up the call, they can see your full mailing address on their PC. They can click on an icon and a street map of your neighbourhood opens in a window allowing them to see where to find your house.

Very interesting. But does it not break down entirely with mobile phones? I could be calling from anywhere on my phone. There may not even be an address associated with my (prepaid) phone.

Regarding GPS, Ordnance Survey, GeoCodes, DVDs, etc., the scenarios you describe sound wonderful. There is a ton of data that has been compiled at public expense by state bodies that really should be opened up for anyone to use. I can't see it happening though and I can't see Ireland getting its act together to standardise addressing.

Victor

Boundaries are surely not an issue in terms of premises identifier codes.

The land registry / registry of deeds ignores boundaries as indenitifers of sites - it uses centre points based on the national grid (11 digit(?) X99999 99999). Individual postal codes need delivery points, not boundaries or centre points.

Originally posted by davros
The guy from the ESRI asked that each postal code coincide with, say, an electoral district. I think that is a mistake. It should be entirely decoupled from all other arbitary and changeable boundaries. It should also be small enough to be guaranteed to fit entirely within a single boundary of any kind so that a particular postcode maps to exactly one electoral division, county, etc.

As best I know EDs will only ever be split, never merged.

Elmo

Why not just keep the post codes the way we have them.

i.e. Dublin 1, 3, 5 etc North Dublin
Dublin 2, 4 , 6 etc South Dublin

So we could go

Cork 1, 3, 5 etc North Cork and so on.

Its simple just to put a number after the county.

DUBLIN4 being a post code.

But prehaps we need long complicated numbers, just to show we are as intelligent as the rest of the world :rolleyes:

Floater

15 digits is impractical but what about 5 or 6 or 5+4? I have lived in countries with all of these lengths of postcodes and didn't find it inconvenient.

It is surely a matter of broad acceptance of the postcode system in every day use rather than any single individual finding them convenient.

Each additional digit in the code will reduce and delay its widespread acceptance and will lead to an increase in transcription errors on envelopes. The only country with 5+4 is the USA. It hasn’t found widespread acceptance, even though the +4 was introduced 20 years ago. Most people stick to the traditional 5 digits when addressing mail, which in resolution terms it corresponds to a four digit postcode in Ireland.

They do use it but the guy from the ESRI said it's still not enough. They want to ask people their post code over the phone, say. Or incorporate data from other data compilers. A finely-grained postcode would be an ideal way to key different datasets together.

If they want to be able to ask people their postcode over the phone one assumes that it is in connection with anonymous data gathering exercises, because if they knew the person’s full address they could put as high a resolution code on the location as they wished – a Standard Geographical Statistical Area (SGSA) – which has nothing to do with a postcode.

If they need an anonymous enquiry geographic code do they need more than a four digit number? A four digit code could divide Dublin 4 into ten zones for example. A five digit code could create 100 zones (ie small groups or roads or streets). Where does this quest for resolution stop?

If you stop at the DED why there rather than a postal district?

Take a 4+3 postcode used in Portugal. The first four digits relate to the postal zone. The last three digits are effectively a street code. The four digit element was introduced decades ago and years later the three digit suffix was added. This allowed people to get used to a simple code before lumping them with something more complicated.

Grannys could write their Christmas card knowing that all her relations in Dublin 2 were now 1020 Dublin – without having to go to a postcode directory to find out that Fitzwilliam Square was 1020-299 Dublin. A fruitless exercise anyway as the 299 doesn’t help the postal sorting system one jot.

For YOUR OWN postcode it wouldn’t be much of a problem for people themselves to remember that it is 1040-234 if they got a statistical survey call. This is a very different issue from remembering everybody else’s 7 digit code when you correspond with them – which is a total waste anyway.

Ideally any code should be largely based on the telephone National Destination Code system. Eg 56nn = Kilkenny, 53nn = Wexford, 1nnn = Dublin region etc for ease of acceptance.

The software application you describe is quite complicated and relies on having access to the full address database.

Not complicated at all. All bog standard stuff that could be created in a database program such as Microsoft Access in less than half an hour. I created a database of Switzerland the other day from two Excel workbooks which I had previously downloaded from the La Poste site.

Workbook 1 was a list of the 4,923 towns in the country together with their postcodes.

Workbook 2 was a list of some 22,577 “streets” (this includes roads, lanes, rural addresses of all types). Import them into Access. Create a query that links both tables (common link = postcode). Create a form to display the data.

Ctrl+F to find anything in milliseconds. Any address in the country. If someone tells me that they live at 119 chemin de Praz-Buchilly in Lausanne I can tell they are fibbing. My database shows me that the highest odd number on that street is 117. It is street number 030240. The postcode is 1000. The Canton is VD.

I could easily add other fields with statistical boundary codes, electoral zones, altitude above sea level. Whatever is required. And link it to other tables. Without any cumbersome long postcodes which would only get in the way of fast access – particularly in a small country such as Ireland or Switzerland.

I'm all in favour of your metric numbering system but I just don't think it's going to happen. The problem is that a single road can slice through many townlands. Rename the road and you allocate a name to some houses that is not related to the townland they are actually in.

Every road leads to somewhere. If you go to any rural townland and talk to people you will find that they have a name for every road in their locality. They are streets ahead of An Post! That name is invariably and logically derived from the place that the road leads to – be it a townland, a village, a town or a city. All that is missing is for a numbering system to be overlaid.

That's why I think a postal code will have to (almost) be able to stand in for a standardised address since the addresses themselves will not be touched.

It you give each townland a 7 digit number (treating it as a “street” in an urban area), it won’t really help someone to find the house or business they are looking for. If on the other hand someone tells me that they are at 7500 Carlow Road, Kilkenny it is telling me very precisely where they are – ie 7.5kms outside Kilkenny on the Carlow Road.

Very interesting. But does it not break down entirely with mobile phones? I could be calling from anywhere on my phone. There may not even be an address associated with my (prepaid) phone.

No it doesn’t! In the Directories.ch database mobile numbers are included in a single database that covers your fixed line, your published e-mail address, your mobile (called Natel in Swiss if you are looking at the specification I posted last week), the number of your summer or weekend home, etc. etc.

If you are calling from the side of the road perhaps broken down the appropriate information to give is the kilometric address for the location. Eg I’m on the “N7 at KP 72.5”. (I seem to recall that KP markers are also missing from Irish roads but that’s another ie NRA matter).

Regarding GPS, Ordnance Survey, GeoCodes, DVDs, etc., the scenarios you describe sound wonderful. There is a ton of data that has been compiled at public expense by state bodies that really should be opened up for anyone to use.

It is ironic that in a country that hypes itself on the technology front is so backward compared with the rest of Europe in areas like this. The printed Michelin map of Ireland costs about EUR 5 to buy. Go to the Ordnance Survey and ask for the same information on a CD and they will probably want thousands of Euro for it. Even though a CD is far cheaper to produce in bulk than a large colour map.

Floater

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
The land registry / registry of deeds ignores boundaries as indenitifers of sites - it uses centre points based on the national grid (11 digit(?) X99999 99999). Individual postal codes need delivery points, not boundaries or centre points. As best I know EDs will only ever be split, never merged.

Any code that seeks to be all singing all dancing in terms of the various boundary systems that we have in Ireland is going to be complex to set-up and expensive to maintain.

Floater

Victor

Originally posted by Floater
The Canton is VD.

The "VD" bit is unfortunate.

Originally posted by Floater
I could easily add other fields with statistical boundary codes, electoral zones, altitude above sea level.

As an example of where postcodes go wrong in the UK someone was refused flood insurance because of his post code, despite living on top of a hill - it was his neighbours down the hill in the same postcode, who were being constantly flooded, not him. :rolleyes:

Floater

Originally posted by Victor
The "VD" bit is unfortunate.

Unfortunate perhaps. Mais c'est la vie. Vaud = VD

As an example of where postcodes go wrong in the UK someone was refused flood insurance because of his post code, despite living on top of a hill - it was his neighbours down the hill in the same postcode, who were being constantly flooded, not him. :rolleyes:

Yet another example of postcode blight.

Floater

Maskhadov

Floater, the french system for house numbers seems great but what happens if you are coming from the other end of the road ?

ButtermilkJack

If it ain't broke, don't fix it

As for the website issue, every 'international' website thats ever asked me for a postcode, I've just entered Co.Dublin. So my county appears twice if needs be. It's never failed me yet! And I do a lot of shopping on the net.

Although personally, I try to avoid websites that make you select your region, and then they don't have 'Ireland' on the list. Or worse still, you pick 'Ireland' and it then routes you to www.we'regoingtoignoreyou.co.uk

If the ignorant f@#kers don't think we exist, then they dont get my cash.