George Redmond Guily of Accepting Bribes.

mike65

So after 7 hrs deliberation and on a majority verdict
former Dublin city manager has been found guilty of corruption, The sentence will be handed down at 2 pm.

<edit>
From unison.ie

Former Dublin Assistant City and County Manager George Redmond has been remanded in custody after being found guilty of corruption during his time in office. The 79 year old has been remanded to Cloverhill Prison for four weeks. He will reappear in court for sentencing on December 17th.

Seems a bit harsh, don't see why he could'nt be sentenced there and then.

Mike.

star gazer

It's important that the people who are guilty of wrong doing are seen to be brought to justice. It is also important that just because this guy has been brought to justice doesn't mean there aren't others out there that shouldn't be brought to justice. The guy is 79 and maybe should be treated with a little consideration for his age, but what it also means is that he has gotten away with a lot for quite some time and benefited a great deal from what he did. He was caught with a very large amount of cash, trying to leave the country. Justice.

sixtysix

as i recall he was caught with a large amount of cash trying to reenter the country.
justice is important-there are people in jail for blocking refuse trucks-its sad to see a 80 yr old handcuffed and heading for jail but it is a lesson for all of us

SCULLY

Originally posted by sixtysix
as i recall he was caught with a large amount of cash trying to reenter the country.
justice is important-there are people in jail for blocking refuse trucks-its sad to see a 80 yr old handcuffed and heading for jail but it is a lesson for all of us

It's the well used arguement - 'ah sure he's an old man now, it wouldn't do anyone any good to put him in prison' - that has been used for decades, wheter in relation to war crimes or in this case corruption (I'm not, obviously equating the two but you get my point).

I agree it is sad to see an old man handcuffed but the message has to be sent out that if you are found guilty of corruption you will be sent to jail, regardless of age. Not a nice way to spend the latter part of your life, but there you go.

star gazer

originally posted by scully
I agree it is sad to see an old man handcuffed but the message has to be sent out that if you are found guilty of corruption you will be sent to jail, regardless of age. Not a nice way to spend the latter part of your life, but there you go.

Yeah, what is even sader is the reality that seems to be being uncovered by this and the tribunals is that Dublin was not always planned and developed in the best interests of the people of Dublin. There are several allegations (not necessarily true) of rezonings that may have come about because it would have made certain individuals/companies a lot of money by changing the voting patterns of councillors with bribes. Everybody suffers because of that. THe lovable rogue that gets away with these things is doing harm to everybody else and should not be shielded from the law by envious or besoted people. Break the law and your day could come, even into your eighties!

mike65

Sentenced to 12 months it could have been 7 I think so the judge was being considerate of Redmonds age whilst sending out a strong message - white collar crims
and public servants (!) can and will go to jail.

Mike.

dahamsta

How come CJ's still out then?

adam

gurramok

He still gets hos 53,000 pa pension, that aint the right message to send out and its wrong.

How long will it be for a politician(TD Collins?) to face jail for their corrupt crimes ?

mike65

I guess the answer to that is 'when the DPP think they should' ...its not like the evidence is'nt there...I'm assuming there are garda files full of interesting facts!

Mike.

Cork

Originally posted by gurramok
He still gets hos 53,000 pa pension, that aint the right message to send out and its wrong.

How long will it be for a politician(TD Collins?) to face jail for their corrupt crimes ?

TD Collins - I persume it is the Limerick West TD that is being referred to made a settlement with the Revenue. They are many people in todays newspapers - who had done likewise.

Jailing an 80 year old man in my openion was not the appropriate sanction. I think that other sanctions should have been imposed but an 80 year old being sent to jail sends out a message that our criminal justice system should give more effective sanction to the elderly rather than incariation.

I hope Revenue does get to tackle White Coller Crime that is absolutely widespread thru out this country.

Look at todays newspapers - The black economy is trieving.

Financial Sanction is most effective - hit where it hurts.

Name + shame with financial penelty.

Victor

Originally posted by dahamsta
How come CJ's still out then?

Well he's out by the €5m he gave the Revenue

Cork

Originally posted by Victor
Well he's out by the €5m he gave the Revenue

There is a full page of settlements in todays paper. Yet - people are too focused on TDs, Councillers and council officials.

The black economy is alive and kicking all around us.

This is costing the state many millions and it is not being investigated by tribunerals.

gurramok

That black economy would not be anything to do with the stealth taxes\inflation and rip-off culture in recent years ?

Anyway, corruption is what ruins the national reputation in the world community, there should be no mercy given to any present/past wrongdoing by TDs, Councillors and council officials.

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Cork
Jailing an 80 year old man in my openion was not the appropriate sanction. I think that other sanctions should have been imposed but an 80 year old being sent to jail sends out a message that our criminal justice system should give more effective sanction to the elderly rather than incariation.

It's entirely appropiate, for far too long people have been living under the illusion of "ah sure it'll never happen to me". The impression that I get from some (0.01 < P <.99) business leaders and politicians is that it doesn't matter unless you get caught and even then all you have to do is pay the money back - IMHO they treat it as a long term loan that probably won't have to be paid back.

Compare the amounts of money he (& the others) took with the cost of a deposit on a house at the time (ie. the max amount that most couples could scrape together under the level of tax then) Also take into account that the M50 had to be rerouted because of other similar deals.

Cork

Originally posted by gurramok
That black economy would not be anything to do with the stealth taxes\inflation and rip-off culture in recent years ?

Our inflation has not been lower for years.

Rip Off Culture is not a recent buzz word. Look at what people paid for air tickets years ago. People can shop around. There clearly needs to be more deregulation. This is coming with regards to airports and hopefully bus routes will follow.

stealth taxes - A few examples???

corruption is what ruins the national reputation in the world community

But we are not seen as a corrupt country.

Can I blow this one out of the water?

A new survey claims that Ireland is seen as one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

Despite the growth in tribunals, the world view is that Ireland is becoming less corrupt compared to other countries.

The survey on perceived corruption was carried out among business people and academics by Transparency International

there should be no mercy given

Banks that were complicit with non resident account holders - should their licences be withdrawn?

Or maybe - It is easier to jail elderly men?

gurramok

Our inflation has not been lower for years.

In the last couple months, prices are above the EU average by about 13%.
We are reputedly the most expensive country to live in the eurozone recently passing Finland.

Rip Off Culture is not a recent buzz word.Look at what people paid for air tickets years ago

LOL, this made me smile.
Recent, how recent ?

Last 5 yrs, some prices have doubled if not trebled (houses).
Ireland was below the EU average for cost of living, now its at the other extreme....oops FF have been in govt since then
Guess there is no need for that rip-off forum on boards then ?

Ryanair despite its faults have helped lower air travel tickets, if they were not around, Aer Lingus would continue to fleece us. I'd wish they were allowed to build that new terminal at Dublin airport, I just might get decent priced tickets to fly to Holland\Germany

stealth taxes - A few examples???

Waste, TV licence, ESB, Eircom, VHI, NTL, bank charges to name a few which are directly/indirectly controlled by the govt via tax rises and toleration through lack of regulation.

Can I blow this one out of the water?

What report was that, link ?

Banks that were complicit with non resident account holders - should their licences be withdrawn?

YES and if not, substantial fines in the tens of millions to show real punishment.

Or maybe - It is easier to jail elderly men?

At least he wont be on any hospital waiting list if anything goes wrong with his health....oops he still has a 53k/yr pension to take care of that

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Cork
Banks that were complicit with non resident account holders - should their licences be withdrawn?

Or maybe - It is easier to jail elderly men?

Yes at least one major bank in this country has lost one of it's licences.
He was not elderly when he commited the crime and the fact that he did not avail of any tax amnesties shows no signs of remores or honesty, he could have rung up the tax office on any one of thousands of days to get the matter sorted. Anyone remember whatsisname (Sanders) the only person ever to recover from Alzimers, must have been the relief at avoiding a prison sentence on medical grounds.

And as for banks - individuals should be accountable. It's not enough for directors etc. to say these are our rules, unless you can show they were enforced too.

The other point is that justice needs to be seen to be done. One of the aims of law etc. is to prevent crimes.

If it was up to me I'd look back at the numbers of prominant figures who have been found guilty of crimes after long periods of time, and use this % as a basis for conducting random indepth audits of current figures. eg: if 1 in 20 previous councillers / publicans have been up before the courts or chased by the revenue then 1 in 20 of the current lot would be audited. The best bit is when stuff comes out of the wood work more of todays lot get audited .. or if more of todays' lot are found out again this up's the % that get audited.

Anyone have any stats on the dail / senate wrt to numbers who have been guilty of anything ?

Cork

Originally posted by gurramok

What report was that, link ?

Link

stealth taxes - A few examples???

---

Waste, TV licence, ESB, Eircom, VHI, NTL, bank charges to name a few which are directly/indirectly controlled by the govt via tax rises and toleration through lack of regulation. - A few examples???

---

Waste, TV licence, ESB, Eircom, VHI, NTL, bank charges to name a few which are directly/indirectly controlled by the govt via tax rises and toleration through lack of regulation.??

Eircom, Banks & NTL are private companies - we live in a free market economy. This government sanction ESB, RTE + VHI prince increases. These companies increased their prices many times over the years - Are these companies not expected to increase their prices??

stealth taxes - is a buzz word. Many governments have increased prices. But "stealth taxes" is a sort of a buzz word.

I think there is a big black economy out there - with many people complicit.

We had many institutions/people in this country engaged in corruption.

Yet - What sanctions were brought upon the banks after the DIRT Inquiry?

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Link

Gotta love the Examiner - they can't even match the headline to the story:

Ireland seen as corrupt, says survey

A new survey claims that Ireland is seen as one of the least corrupt countries in the world.

:rolleyes:

BTW, looking at Transparancy International's latest 2003 reports shows some items of interest:
1) The body in Ireland seen as being most corrupt were political parties, followed by the medical boards, police and court system;
2) 54% of the people surveyed from Ireland think that corruption levels will remain the same or increase in the future;
3) We're in joint 18th place with the USA. The country that just gave us Enron and more insider dealing than Oliver Stone squeezed into Wall Street. And that's based on our average perceived score - the lowest assessment put us just above Oman in 26th place. It's important here to remember who's below us on the table - because 90% of them are dictatorships, in the midst of civil wars or just generally well-known for being places where bribery is a social institution....

stealth taxes - is a buzz word. Many governments have increased prices. But "stealth taxes" is a sort of a buzz word.

Indeed - but what phrase would you suggest for indirect taxation whose levels are deliberately under-publicised?

I think there is a big black economy out there - with many people complicit.

Indeed? And what evidence do you base this on? And why should that prevent us punishing those who we've proven have committed crimes?

We had many institutions/people in this country engaged in corruption.

Yes, and all of them should be punished.
Redmond is just the start, with any luck.

Yet - What sanctions were brought upon the banks after the DIRT Inquiry?

I fail to see how their getting away with it should count as a defence for Redmond...

Cork

I agree with the general gist of your posting Sparks - but is it not also a crime to offer bribes?

Banks were encouraging the use off shore accounts - who was brought to jail?

Redmonds Time in Jail could cost us approx €80,000. I believe that the court could have given the man a financial penelty.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
I agree with the general gist of your posting Sparks - but is it not also a crime to offer bribes?

Cork, if you agreed with the gist of my posting you wouldn't have written your original post.

Banks were encouraging the use off shore accounts - who was brought to jail?

And what would you recommend? Not prosecuting anyone 'cos we haven't gotten everyone at once?

Redmonds Time in Jail could cost us approx €80,000. I believe that the court could have given the man a financial penelty.

Two problems there:
1) When you decide on punishment on the basis of how much it costs, you wind up shooting people in the head and charging their family for the cost of the bullet.
2) He's been convicted of taking bribes. A financial penalty would mean that he'd lose the cash and suffer no actual penalty. So in effect, he'd have been required to pay back a long-term loan without interest or deposit. Hell of a message to send to the rest of the government, that...

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by Cork
Redmonds Time in Jail could cost us approx €80,000. I believe that the court could have given the man a financial penelty.

Most corrupt political figures have been accused of more than one dodgy deal - remember the fuss over the wrong £30,000 - so it would be safe to assume in a large number of cases they would be able to pay the fine from the proceeds of unproven or undetected envelopes. Hardly a deterent - "If we find you guilty you'll just have to hand back some of the money."
High Standards in High Places

Had the PD's adhered to their founding slogan how different would things have been ?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Or maybe - It is easier to jail elderly men?

Well it's certainly easier to jail men than banks. If he hadn't done the crime he wouldn't be in jail in the first place.

Victor

Cork, when you think about it, the corrupt payment(s?) made to Redmond cost the state a fortune it could have spent on the health service, but couldn't. Redmond and Haughey and the others facilitated the early / unnecessary deaths of people.

I hope he dies in jail.