ID cards

Imposter · 27-11-2003 3:35pm

Originally posted by sovtek
No more stupid than that line of thinking "...if you aren't doing anything wrong".
You are correct that it's not completely the same scenario, but then I shouldn't be subjected to inspection by the police no matter where I am without probable cause.

Who's talking about anyone being stopped without a good reason?
What I said originally was: "Unless you're doing something wrong you won't/shouldn't be stopped."

Ok some people get stopped even now by the police for no reason but that's a problem with the police and nothing to do with ID's. ID's would be used to positively identify you should you be doing wrong, should you want to get into a pub or possibly should something unfortunate happen to you. Not for the big brother reasons you are suggesting.

sovtek · 27-11-2003 3:35pm

Originally posted by LFCFan
Is this not just so they can match the Credit Card with the user?

No it's in case you skip the bill or trash the place.

sovtek · 27-11-2003 3:37pm

Originally posted by Imposter
ID's would be used to positively identify you should you be doing wrong, should you want to get into a pub or possibly should something unfortunate happen to you. Not for the big brother reasons you are suggesting. [/B]

And the Stazi were just protecting their citizens from the evil capitalists of the West.

LFCFan · 27-11-2003 3:48pm

Originally posted by sovtek
No it's in case you skip the bill or trash the place.

so if you have no intentions of thrashing your room or skipping the bill than what's the problem with showing some ID?

Stark · 27-11-2003 3:49pm

I don't like the idea of ID cards as another way for power-mad gardai to bash you over the head. The idea of walking down the street and "ID check please" creeps me out.

Yoda · 27-11-2003 3:59pm

Having standardized identification is useful. If you get into an accident, you can be identified easily and your family contacted. It gives merchants more confidence too.

The police in the US do not go round saying "ID check please". You should not be so alarmist about the gardaí.

Sleipnir · 27-11-2003 4:03pm

Originally posted by k.oriordan
I don't like the idea of ID cards as another way for power-mad gardai to bash you over the head. The idea of walking down the street and "ID check please" creeps me out.

ah for god's sake that won't happen.
You won't have to "wear the star of david" or anything.
It's only feckin ID!!!!! We ALL carry ID around all the time anyway! (pause for the people who will post "I don't")
grow up for cryinoutloud.

Sparks · 27-11-2003 4:18pm

Originally posted by Kananga
grow up for cryinoutloud.

This from someone who posts anonymously on boards with a dangermouse avatar...

sovtek · 27-11-2003 4:34pm

Originally posted by LFCFan
so if you have no intentions of thrashing your room or skipping the bill than what's the problem with showing some ID?

When did I say that I had a problem with it.

sovtek · 27-11-2003 4:38pm

Originally posted by Yoda
Having standardized identification is useful. If you get into an accident, you can be identified easily and your family contacted. It gives merchants more confidence too.

As a requirement it can and will be misused by both business, criminals and the government.

The police in the US do not go round saying "ID check please". You should not be so alarmist about the gardaí.

No they just do that to people they don't like the looks of. In both countries I'm talking from experience.
An ID requirement will not prevent over policing but will make it even more prevelant and convenient.

Yoda · 27-11-2003 4:42pm

(looks in wallet)

Bank card with name
Credit card with name
Credit card with name and picture and signature

(looks at passport)

Name, picture, birthdate, birthplace, sex, nationality

(looks at partner's Irish driving licence)

Name, picture, birthdate, birthplace, address

(tries to remembers US driver's license)

Name, picture, birthdate, address, hair and eye colour, height and weight

(thinks about useful information that could be on an ID)

blood type, allergies...

sovtek · 27-11-2003 4:43pm

Originally posted by LFCFan
The reason behind it is to stop certain criminal activity and to clamp down on illegal immigrants

Immigrants already have an ID card.

LFCFan · 27-11-2003 4:45pm

Originally posted by sovtek
When did I say that I had a problem with it.

Didn't mean you. Just meant in General, why would people have a problem with showing ID in a hotel.

Imposter · 27-11-2003 4:46pm

Originally posted by sovtek
No they just do that to people they don't like the looks of. In both countries I'm talking from experience.
An ID requirement will not prevent over policing but will make it even more prevelant and convenient.

They can and do do that without ID. ID will make no difference to that. That's a policing problem and not an ID one as i've said earlier.

Sleipnir · 27-11-2003 4:50pm

Originally posted by sovtek
Immigrants already have an ID card.

Yeah, like the guy who had over 70 of them.
And was claiming on each one.

Sleipnir · 27-11-2003 4:52pm

Originally posted by Sparks
This from someone who posts anonymously on boards with a dangermouse avatar...

I'm sorry. Which Avatar would you suggest for a 26 year old?
Bertie Ahern perhaps?
The cast from Friends maybe?

Should I change it on my birthday every year?

sovtek · 27-11-2003 5:00pm

Originally posted by Kananga
Yeah, like the guy who had over 70 of them.
And was claiming on each one.

Sooooo......it won't prevent illegal immigrants and it won't preven them from abusing the system.

Sparks · 27-11-2003 5:04pm

Originally posted by Kananga
I'm sorry. Which Avatar would you suggest for a 26 year old?
Bertie Ahern perhaps?
The cast from Friends maybe?
Should I change it on my birthday every year?

*shrug*
I don't bother with one. On boards where I have the option to use a custom one, I use the AIH logo.

But the point was that I just don't see how you can tell someone else to grow up while not exhibiting signs of having done so yourself.

Stark · 27-11-2003 5:04pm

The police in the US do not go round saying "ID check please". You should not be so alarmist about the gardaí.

ah for god's sake that won't happen.
You won't have to "wear the star of david" or anything.
It's only feckin ID!!!!! We ALL carry ID around all the time anyway! (pause for the people who will post "I don't")
grow up for cryinoutloud.

I have been asked by gardai in the past - "do you have some sort of identification?". When I reply that it's not required, they say "all right then, we'll search you for drugs instead". Then they take out my ID cards while searching for the drugs.

LFCFan · 27-11-2003 5:22pm

Originally posted by k.oriordan
I have been asked by gardai in the past - "do you have some sort of identification?". When I reply that it's not required, they say "all right then, we'll search you for drugs instead". Then they take out my ID cards while searching for the drugs.

But why were you asked for ID? In all my 26 years on this planet I have never once been approached by the Gardai because I stay out of trouble and stay out of situations that could get me in trouble. If they Gardai felt they needed to question you there must have been a valid reason. TBH I'm glad the Gardai do question suspicious behaviour. If more scumbags were hassled by the Gardai there might be less of the Anti Social behaviour that goes on in this country.

Stark · 27-11-2003 5:45pm

I was in a hurry one day so tried taking a shortcut through an alleyway which ended in a cul-de-sac so I had to jog back out again and try a different way when I was stopped by a garda who demanded to know what business I had down there and where I was going that required me to take a shortcut.

Interesting story by ray bradbury, author of fahrenheit 451. Bit extremist, as you have to be for a fictional work, but you get the idea: http://sunsite.wits.ac.za/holistic/bradbury.htm

sovtek · 27-11-2003 6:44pm

Originally posted by LFCFan
But why were you asked for ID? In all my 26 years on this planet I have never once been approached by the Gardai because I stay out of trouble and stay out of situations that could get me in trouble.

ow is waiting at a bus stop in a track suit attract the attention of the Gardai?
Obviously regardless of how much trouble you stay away from or out of Gardai are going to use prejudice to harrass people made all the more likely with everyone being required to carry ID. Once they know you they then can continue to harrass you should they take a notion to do so.
OH yea, and it doesn't stop the "scumbags" either.

If they Gardai felt they needed to question you there must have been a valid reason.

Like "you look like a scumbag or I just hate the way your standing there doing nothing at a bus stop...probably collectin the dole too.

TBH I'm glad the Gardai do question suspicious behaviour.

As well as people going about their daily business who might not happen to fit into a certain Gardai's idea of "the right sort of people".

If more scumbags were hassled by the Gardai there might be less of the Anti Social behaviour that goes on in this country.

I don't know how many times I've heard the story:
"Went to the Gardai station after I was mugged with a syringe and they said they knew the guy...all the while sitting on their ass and drinking a cup of tea."
But I guess all people carrying ID's would sort that out.

Typedef · 27-11-2003 7:44pm

I don't believe citizens of a so called 'free' society should be required to provide identification, under threat of penalty.

Unless one is suspected of comitting a crime or has relevant information as to the circumstance of a crime, I think a person or citizen (notice I think people should be endowed with the same rights as citizens), should have the ability to maintain their anonimity.

I would fear a scenario where representatives of the State could, without any suspicion of breaking the law on your part, require a person to produce identification, on an entirely arbitrary basis.

Such a paradigm would smack of a draconian quasi-totalitarian police State and is in my view, extraneous to the requirements that should be placed on citizens/people by State (x).

Basically.

Yoda · 27-11-2003 8:01pm

I don't suggest that either, TypeDef. No penalty is applied in the US if you don't have ID, though if you do get into trouble with the police because they mistake you for a real bad guy it can be troublesome not having one. I don't think it would be right to make it a crime not to have one here. What if you forget and leave it at home? What if you are robbed?

What does make good sense though is to have a single standard card which everyone can get and carry if he or she desires. The best way to implement this is to use a sturdy, wallet-friendly card for the driving licence, and to make a non-driving card available from the same source. Drivers carry it in the wallet. Young people get it to prove their ID. Non-drivers can get it or not as they prefer.

In practice, it's handy to have ID when you need it, and harmless to carry it if you don't.

I don't know what the hullabaloo is about.

sovtek · 27-11-2003 8:16pm

Originally posted by Yoda
I don't suggest that either, TypeDef. No penalty is applied in the US if you don't have ID, though if you do get into trouble with the police because they mistake you for a real bad guy it can be troublesome not having one. I don't think it would be right to make it a crime not to have one here. What if you forget and leave it at home? What if you are robbed?

What does make good sense though is to have a single standard card which everyone can get and carry if he or she desires. The best way to implement this is to use a sturdy, wallet-friendly card for the driving licence, and to make a non-driving card available from the same source. Drivers carry it in the wallet. Young people get it to prove their ID. Non-drivers can get it or not as they prefer.

In practice, it's handy to have ID when you need it, and harmless to carry it if you don't.

I don't know what the hullabaloo is about.

I don't have a problem with an ID being made available, only if it's compulsory...which is what you would have voted for in this poll had you choosen "yes".

bonkey · 28-11-2003 1:40pm

Originally posted by Typedef
Unless one is suspected of comitting a crime or has relevant information as to the circumstance of a crime, I think a person or citizen (notice I think people should be endowed with the same rights as citizens), should have the ability to maintain their anonimity.

I agree, but there is nothing contradictory with an ID card being mandatory and that stance. You are now simply talking about the rules which would cover when you could be required to produce the ID....not whether or not you should have it.

Originally posted by Kananga
grow up for cryinoutloud.

Originally posted by Sparks
But the point was that I just don't see how you can tell someone else to grow up while not exhibiting signs of having done so yourself.

Folx....you both know the rules....lets not get carried away here.

jc

Sleipnir · 28-11-2003 1:42pm

Originally posted by bonkey
Folx....you both know the rules....lets not get carried away here.

jc

yeah we'll leave it at that Bonkey. Bunch of hotheads!

dahamsta · 28-11-2003 2:28pm

Originally posted by k.oriordan
I was in a hurry one day so tried taking a shortcut through an alleyway which ended in a cul-de-sac so I had to jog back out again and try a different way when I was stopped by a garda who demanded to know what business I had down there and where I was going that required me to take a shortcut.

Don't believe a word of it lads. Kevin's got a big scar down one side of his face and wears and full-length leather coat over a Total World Domination t-shirt. He also wears those sunglasses Morpheus wears in the Matrix and carries a baseball bat around /all the time/!

I for one applaud our new id-seeking overlords.

adam

sovtek · 28-11-2003 4:27pm

Originally posted by bonkey
I agree, but there is nothing contradictory with an ID card being mandatory and that stance. You are now simply talking about the rules which would cover when you could be required to produce the ID....not whether or not you should have it.

I disagree.
An ID card is another gathering of information about citizens. If a card is mandatory then the government has the info for every single person. I believe that the government has no need to collect info for the sole purpose of having it.
Of course there's your PPS #....

bonkey · 28-11-2003 5:54pm

Originally posted by sovtek
I disagree.
An ID card is another gathering of information about citizens. If a card is mandatory then the government has the info for every single person. I believe that the government has no need to collect info for the sole purpose of having it.
Of course there's your PPS #....

But hold on...

I'm not saying I believe an ID card with masses of information on it is what I want. I'm of the opinion that the first question is whether or not a mandatory form of identification is an idea worth pursuing or not. Should it be worth prusuing, the question of what could go on it and what would go on it would be something to resolve seperately.

While its possible to fall out of the system in Switzerland (by living abroad for a while), it is legally mandatory to register with your local town/area council when you move somewhere. With such a system in place (which I think is eminently sensible, and which was done for the Postal system of all things), an ID would need to only contain your name, some method of id - even potentially a photo - and some method of retrieving your current - or any previous - address. Funnily enough, my Visa card (i.e. of the spending variety, not of the work-permit type) has all of that, as do some bank cards over here as well I believe. (Hey Sparks...does this mean that Visa treat Swiss people like criminals, as opposed to the Irish, cause you don't have to have the picture ID?

)

Such a minimal level of identification is - I believe - fundamentally a good idea. Any further addition would have to be carefully considered in terms of potential for abuse vs potential benefit...and I would of the belief that the less extra info the better after that, to be honest. I'd be in favour of having some optional information on there - donor-status, blood-type, eye-prescription for example - stuff that would be genuinely useful to the cardholder, though.

Would I go as far as DNA-patterns or anything like that? I don't know. To be honest, I haven't fully considered the risks of storing a one-way-encrypted hash of your DNA (i.e. that you can be identified, but your DNA is not actually stored anywhere) which is the most likely option I'd consider.....

jc

ID cards

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