ID cards

sovtek

Originally posted by bonkey
But hold on...

I'm not saying I believe an ID card with masses of information on it is what I want. I'm of the opinion that the first question is whether or not a mandatory form of identification is an idea worth pursuing or not. Should it be worth prusuing, the question of what could go on it and what would go on it would be something to resolve seperately.

While its possible to fall out of the system in Switzerland (by living abroad for a while), it is legally mandatory to register with your local town/area council when you move somewhere. With such a system in place (which I think is eminently sensible, and which was done for the Postal system of all things), an ID would need to only contain your name, some method of id - even potentially a photo - and some method of retrieving your current - or any previous - address. Funnily enough, my Visa card (i.e. of the spending variety, not of the work-permit type) has all of that, as do some bank cards over here as well I believe. (Hey Sparks...does this mean that Visa treat Swiss people like criminals, as opposed to the Irish, cause you don't have to have the picture ID? )

Such a minimal level of identification is - I believe - fundamentally a good idea. Any further addition would have to be carefully considered in terms of potential for abuse vs potential benefit...and I would of the belief that the less extra info the better after that, to be honest. I'd be in favour of having some optional information on there - donor-status, blood-type, eye-prescription for example - stuff that would be genuinely useful to the cardholder, though.

Would I go as far as DNA-patterns or anything like that? I don't know. To be honest, I haven't fully considered the risks of storing a one-way-encrypted hash of your DNA (i.e. that you can be identified, but your DNA is not actually stored anywhere) which is the most likely option I'd consider.....

jc

But then when you don't have this ID for whatever reason...you are invarably going to be penalized for it.
DL in Texas also started out as being just basic info. Now they want your fingerprints. Something that used to only be collected when you were arrested.
OK there is some useful info as well like donor status and emergency info.
Does it automatically make it a police state...no obviously Switzerland isn't that. But one day it's name, address, photo...next fingerprints....DNA info (which I strongly disagree with even without mandatory ID's) and what would that info be used for which the gov is invarably going to collect.
Now if you make such an ID available, fair enough it can be very useful. To make it mandatory for everyone and then penalize someone for not having one is a slippery slope in my opinion.
You gave an example of CC. I also think that is too much information for someone to have, but then I don't have to have a CC. Even in that case CC companies can and have abused the info that they collect about their customers (such as selling it to direct marketing and the like).

Yoda

My US MasterCard has a picture of me on it, and a picture of my signature too.

I've said it several times: if the Irish driving licence were credit-card size, it could fit in a wallet easily and contain the same basic information a US driver's license has: name, birthdate, address, sex, eye and hair colour, height and weight and whatever else I'm forgetting. Simple stuff to help, gosh, identify you as who you are. Optional medical data, sure.

It should be a serious offence to be driving without one, and since it's sturdy and credit-card sized, people would carry it in the wallet not leave it in the glove box. Basic public education ("don't leave home without it") would probably do.

I can't see how it would be just to make it an offence not to carry such ID. But I think they're a good idea, to help identify people after an accident, to give merchants more confidence that a person is who he or she says he or she is. They shouldn't be compulsory, perhaps, but social pressure can make them as prevalent and as inoffensive as the driver's license is in the US.

lil2pol

Hi,

As an ex-pat (Brit) living in the Netherlands ID card were in place when I arrived here 30 years ago. I carry mine with me at all times. I 've only ever been asked to produce this piece of plastic on about two occasions donkies'years ago. In fact one is inclined to forget that one does have an ID card. For official business you're asked to either produce your passport or driving license (a common practice in most European countries) and that applies to Dutch as well as non-Dutch. The folks here, myself included, don't have a problem with this system. If the bogey man is out to get you, he'll get you, ID card or no ID card.

Capt'n Midnight

Don't see why we need ID cards - most people too young to drive have the Garda ID's so they can go underage drinking, the people who can't drive have provisional licenses, the people who don't work have social security ID,.....

So should we use biometrics to check for duplicate ID's being issued ???

Yoda

It's inefficient to have garda IDs on the one hand and silly paper driving licences that melt in the wash. Driving licences should be credit-card sized and contain all the ID one needs, and non-driver ID cards should be issued from the same source.

But I already said that. The point is, if there's going to be some sort of ID system, it should be sensible. Roll the garda IDs and the driving licences into the same convenient wallet-sized card, smart or not, keep it voluntary (don't punish if it's not carried), and encourage people to carry it.

bonkey

Originally posted by sovtek
To make it mandatory for everyone and then penalize someone for not having one is a slippery slope in my opinion.

Well, mandatory would be meaningless if there wasn't some way to enforce it....

And there's no evidence its a "slippery slope". If it were, then there would be nothing we could do to prevent it even starting....

I find it funny that the objection to a mandatory card is basically "sooner or later it will have all the info I don't want on it". If you have so much faith that its all going to Big Brother land, then surely we're already on that slippery slope you refer to.

jc

Victor

I have little objection to government having the info (they have it already in distributred format) - it's companies I have the problem with.

That said I have severe reservations about a DNA database. Imagine some cop checking you DNA against your kids and blackmailing you against your partner ....

sovtek

Originally posted by bonkey
If you have so much faith that its all going to Big Brother land, then surely we're already on that slippery slope you refer to.

Actually I do think that we are on that path already and I see a mandatory ID as furthering that. The problems it overcomes have less intrusive solutions.
Make it avialable but not mandatory.
I also have a problem with how much info companies are allowed to have as well.
Next....drug testing

bonkey

Originally posted by sovtek
Actually I do think that we are on that path already and I see a mandatory ID as furthering that.

You opposed the idea of a "simpler" card because it would make the more data-rich card inevitable (according to you), but you also acknowledge that the data-rich card is inevitable in your vision anyway.

So remind me again what the grounds for objecting to a "simple ID" card is again?

The problems it overcomes have less intrusive solutions.

I'm at a loss here - exactly what "less intrusive" solution is there to being able to identify someone??? I'm really interested in hearing this, because make no mistake, the central point behind an Identification Card is - unsurprisingly - that it can be used to identify someone.

Make it avialable but not mandatory.

The point of an ID card is to be able to accurately identify someone when the situation demands. Making the card optional defeats any valid purpose of the card existing.

Not only that, but you would also run the risk of automaticaly being considered to be guilty of something if you didn't have an ID card. If I'm willing to be identified by the police in a given incident, and you're not....who do you think they will naturally put under suspicion first? The person saying "no, you have no right to know who I am", or the person saying "certainly officer...here's my name and address".

You see this as a better solution? Seriously???

I also have a problem with how much info companies are allowed to have as well.

Again, this is based on an assumption of what would be stored on the card, coupled with an assumption of who would be allowed access it and how. It is not an argument against "an identity card", it is an argument against "some possible implementations of an identity card system"....as has been anything that you've qualified to a level of detail greater than vague hand-waving cries of "it would put us on a slippery slope to our DOOM that we're already on anyway!" (paraphrased, obviously).

jc

daveydub

Well the sooner the Irish "cop-on" to whats going on the better. There is a grave need for us to join the Schengen Agreement and have Schengen type Identity Cards. Thus we can travel throughout the EU without need for a passport and we can be easily identified in our home countries. People who claim that this is BIG-BRO type policing are being irrational.. Why should anyone fear identifying themselves properly before a member of an Garda Siochana or the Army? You should only fear if you have something to hide. Such utterences from people like Michael McDowell saying ID cards belong in communist or dictator states are ridiculous, are Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France, etc. considered communist States? I think not.

dahamsta

Originally posted by daveydub
Why should anyone fear identifying themselves properly before a member of an Garda Siochana or the Army?

The army? I know Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael are in a state of emergency but I didn't think it applied to the whole country. Are you seriously telling me you'd show ID to an army private on spec?

Oh, are aware that David Blunkett - that would be the UK Home Secretary - wants to share citizen information with pretty much every Tom, Dick and Harry in the UK? Fire services, city councils, probably yerman down the soup kitchen if he asks for it. You'd like all of them to have your thumbprint and/or retinal scan, yeah? How about your medical records?

You should only fear if you have something to hide.

Ah, there it is. I was beginning to worry.

Such utterences from people like Michael McDowell saying ID cards belong in communist or dictator states are ridiculous

So are yours I'm afraid. Michael McDohell will be all for ID cards, for example. Might I suggest a little reading?

adam

Victor

Originally posted by dahamsta
The army?

Members of the Defence Forces may be deputised for individual periods of up to 6 hours may the Garda (minimum inspector up?). In addition, naval officers in the course of their duties may make arrests at sea.

chill

Originally posted by Yoda No penalty is applied in the US if you don't have ID, .... What does make good sense though is to have a single standard card which everyone can get and carry if he or she desires.
I don't know what the hullabaloo is about.

I agree completely. I too have some concerns about the meaning of 'compulsory'...

But in the meantime we should definitely move swiftly and immediately to establish a high tech fraud free identity card that can be used for all of the processes that we face in our every day lives such as driving, travel, social welfare, access, commercial etc.

Our experience with this ID card will be invaluable in then making an informed assessment of whether to move to the next stage of compulsory possession.

.

daveydub

Michael McDowell has been quoted as saying what I repeated above. Maybe you should be more up to date with party politics and current affairs, dahamsta. But anywho I disagree with what he said and am all for ID cards.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Victor
Members of the Defence Forces may be deputised for individual periods of up to 6 hours may the Garda (minimum inspector up?). In addition, naval officers in the course of their duties may make arrests at sea.

I wouldn't doubt you for a second Victor but I'm not refuting that, I'm asking: "Are you seriously telling me you'd show ID to an army private on spec?"

DaveyDub-bo, I was quite careful not to suggest that he didn't say it. What I said was that "Michael McDohell will be all for ID cards". Future tense. Mark my words.

adam

Victor

http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/2161100?view=Eircomnet

ICCL concern over biometric data legislation
From:ireland.com
Monday, 15th December, 2003

The Irish Council for Civil Liberties (ICCL) has expressed concern at the introduction today of new legislation permitting biometric data to be included on visas and residential permits for non-EU nationals.

The motion, which will see fingerprints and digital facial images detailed on such documents from 2005, was "sneaked" through in the Dáil this afternoon according to the ICCL.

It is also claimed that though these measures will initially apply to migrant workers, international students and refugees, there are also plans to introduce such legislation for EU residents.

"We are very disturbed that yet another measure with serious civil liberties implications is being rushed through the Dáil without debate," said Ms Aisling Reidy, Director of the ICCL.

"This comes at the same time as debate on the European Arrest Warrant Bill, legislation that will by-pass years of Supreme Court jurisprudence on extradition, will be guillotined.

"Regrettably the atrocities of September 11th, are yet again being used as an emotive cover to introduce measures which have more to do with social control and loss of freedom, than enhancing security.

Full text of the motions will not be available until Wednesday, at which time they will come before the Oireachtas Justice Committee. There will be no debate in the Dáil or Séanad.

The biometric information will be available on national and EU-wide databases and be accessible to tens of thousands of officials.

The ICCL added that not only is the 11th-hour rushing through of the motion a cause for concern, the cost of implementation has yet to be addressed.

"The installation of technology to create the documentation, the cost of storage and management of the data, and the need to have verification systems installed at border posts" are all financial concerns, warned Ms Reidy.

"It is not clear how this will be dealt with in the short time allocated to the measures by the Committee."

Yoda

I think if biometrics are going to be taken they had better damn well be taken for everyone. The idea that we will start with "migrant workers, international students and refugees" is utterly revolting.

bonkey

Originally posted by Yoda
I think if biometrics are going to be taken they had better damn well be taken for everyone. The idea that we will start with "migrant workers, international students and refugees" is utterly revolting.

Aren't you the "migrant worker, international student or refugee" (although I assume not the latter) who posted recently about having had to have your fingerprints taken when applying for Irish citizenship and you had no problems with it at all.

Now, instead of being for citizenship, its for residency, and instead of just your fingerprints, its a more comprehensive set of identification information.

So why has it gone from "not a problem" to "utterly revolting" ????

jc

luckat

I just wonder whether ID cards holding biometric identity markers will actually have any *permanent* effect on fraud, mad bombers, etc.

Sparks

Originally posted by Victor
http://home.eircom.net/content/irelandcom/breaking/2161100?view=Eircomnet

<fumes>
Every time I think I've reached a plateau in how pissed off this shower of tossers can make me, something like that happens. :mad:

Yoda

Originally posted by bonkey
Aren't you the "migrant worker, international student or refugee" (although I assume not the latter) who posted recently about having had to have your fingerprints taken when applying for Irish citizenship and you had no problems with it at all. Now, instead of being for citizenship, its for residency, and instead of just your fingerprints, its a more comprehensive set of identification information.

I'm an immigrant; I had a work permit as co-director of a small Irish-American company and after the requisite number of years I applied for citizenship, according to the rules for doing so. I was naturalized in March 2000. I've lived in Ireland since September 1989.

Fingerprints are taken in the Phoenix park for those applying for naturalization for the specific purpose of making police enquiries about the person in question, to determine his or her suitability for becoming an Irish citizen. As an applicant, I welcomed such a security check. It makes sense.

I think this is a very different thing from fingerprinting students, migrant workers, and refugees. If ID cards are to be carried, and biometric data is to appear on them, then the same data should appear for everyone, not just a group like this.