Who are these idiots ???

Doctor J

Cool the jets, gents.


In my opinion the onus should always be on the car 2nd in the queue to overtake, it has the best view (taking into account it will drop back a little to get a better view before attempting the procedure - hence the cars further down the queue will have even further to cover to overtake), all it takes is a little bit patience on everybody's part, a little bit of cop on.

The car 2nd in the queue is the only one who won't rely on the avoiding action of others to complete the maneuvre and, therefore, complete the overtaking safely. A car overtaking multiple vehicles frequently needs other cars to take avoiding action (either in the queue or the other lane), putting multiple lives at risk. The statistics are there, there are far too many people dying on Irish roads. Slow don, so what if you get somewhere 5 minutes later than you might have if you'd done stupid overtaking. Big fycking deal. Multiple overtaking is not a safe maneuvre. Slow down and don't kill yourself or anyone else Is that unreasonable?

fenris

I think you are getting wound up and taking things personaly, I did not call you stupid, that was a title you claimed for yourself.

There is no mention of working out distances based on vanishing points, just a rough guide of the suitability of your speed relative to the road.

You are correct to state that the vanishing point does not make allowances for oncomming traffic, that is not what it is for. Brings to mind the addage " if your only tool is a hammer the every problem is a nail"

I do not think I have made my points in a condescending manner, and cannot be accountable if you choose to interpret them as such.

You said the guy at the front of overtaking queue has the best view of the road, I disagree making the point that the best position is back a few car lengths from the "target" vehicle. So you can see past them. You can't do that and not leave enough space between you for another car to slip into the gap. Its a catch 22, but there it is.

You are agreeing with me here, the best position is back far enough to maximise visibility while staying close enough to overtake safely. Your implicit assumption seems to be the guy at the front of the overtaking queue is too close to the car in front for safety and visibility, that is neither my point nor how I or many others drive.

It is not a technical course, it is a skills development process which like all training moved you from
unconcious incompetence (I don't need to learn anything),
to concious incompetence (there is something to learn),
then to concious competence (think about it then do it)
and finally to unconcious incompetence (just do it).

You appear to make a lot of assumptions about me, you and everybody based on very little.


So please don't take it to heart, if you are interested enough to argue the maybe you are interested enough to look into this a bit more there is plenty of info on the web about this area, bike stuff is easier to find as bikers have a much bigger vested intrest in this stuff.

There is nothing personal here, I don't know you or anything about you, nor you about me. I have had advanced training, I do know about what I speak in this case anyway !

so its not
"Book learning" <> (skill + experience + ability)
but
("Book learning" + skill + experience + ability)*training = survival++


I am not going to argue with you, enjoy your weekend


BTW

#include <cliche.h> should have been

#include <cliche.h>

RicardoSmith

I assume nothing, my points were based on the posts thus far in the thread. It obvious what you are talking about. The're about a stuble as brick. Thats the last I'll say about it too.

The point under discussion was the annoyance where a car pulls into your breaking area when you you are trying to overtake. If the 3rd car has the opportunity to overtake the 2nd car. Then assuming it wasn't a complete act of lunacy, whats the problem with that. The 2nd doesn't ALWAYS have the best view of the road. A little lecture on optics doesn't allow for the fact that you can't see through a car, van truck bus etc. So your view is more obscured than the following cars.

So therefore the 3rd car actually has more information to act on than the second car. If the 3rd car is a much faster card than then the 2nd car then his overtaking distance and time is much shorter than the the 2nd car. So while overtaking opportunities for the second car may not have arisen, there could have been a dozen opportunities for the faster 3rd car to overtake. Why should the 3rd car wait for the slower 2nd car to overtake? Why should be not use the space between the 1st and 2nd car?

The other point is that if the 3rd car moving into the space is moving into the braking area of the 2nd car, then the 2nd car is too near the 1st car anyway. If the 2nd car had left enough space for braking and to see the road properly ahead then there should be enough space for the 3rd car to slip in. In fact a good driver will always leave this space in case theres a faster car moving up the queue.

The 2nd car should realise that if hes not able to overtake and the 3rd car is then he should drop back and let the 3rd car through. Unfortunately most people defend this space and act likes it personal affront if someone uses it. Some times the 3rd car has to do this as a tactical maneover to create space that the 2nd car is unable to exploit.

None of this requires a course, a book or anything. Its common sense. If some lacks that then an advanced driving course isn't going to help. They'll jsut be over confident. Though personally I picked up a few good tips about driving on the wrong side of the road from it.

Doctor J

Originally posted by RicardoSmith
The other point is that if the 3rd car moving into the space is moving into the braking area of the 2nd car, then the 2nd car is too near the 1st car anyway. If the 2nd car had left enough space for braking and to see the road properly ahead then there should be enough space for the 3rd car to slip in. In fact a good driver will always leave this space in case theres a faster car moving up the queue.

If the 2nd driver is keeping a 2sec gap, which I hope everyone thinks is a good thing, and the 3rd driver pulls into the space between the 1st and 2nd cars, there is, at best, a 1sec gap on either side of the formerly 3rd car... which is bad, right? This puts the 3 cars in peril, should the 1st car face a situation which requires an emergency brake.

As for the "good driver" bit? In my experience, it's these faster cars moving up the queue who are happy to drive up someone's arse looking for a chance to pull a rash overtaking move. Is that good driving? By that logic, the good drivers are the slow drivers who don't overtake, they "will always leave this space in case theres a faster car moving up the queue".?

RicardoSmith

So what happens if theres no gap between 1 and 2 they're doing 25 in a 60 and you're 3. You can see ahead that theres nothing coming for .5 of a mile and 2 isn't making an effort to overtake?

Doctor J

You need to breathe in deep through your nose and out through your mouth, relax, this isn't the end of the world


That's a bit of an exaggerated example. I've found it's usually something like

Car 1 is doing 50-55mph in a 60mph zone

Car 2 is a small engined vehicle, maintaining decent gap looking to overtake and continue at 60mph.

Car 3 is in a similar situation to Car 2

Car 4 is in s similar situation to Car 3

Car 5 (with obligatory alloys) blazes past at the earliest opportunity, frustrating Cars 2, 3 and 4 who could have gotten past Car 1 had Car 5 not put them all in danger and spoiled their opportunity to overtake. Should Car 5 not be able to make it (damn spoiler causing wind resistance), Car 5 barges in between Car 1 and Car 2, causing Car 2 to brake sharply to avoid an accident, with the relative knock on effects to Cars 3 and 4.

RicardoSmith

I think we could find examples to prove each others point.

Car 1 is a truck with 20 tons of stone in the back

Car2 is mammy and the 10 kids 2 dogs having lunch in the car and a fight

Car3 is nippy 100bhp+ car with a girl who has done an advanced driving course, 15 years of driving no accidents.

Car4 and beyond, who cares. The 1st rule of Italian driving. Whats BEHIND you is not important. (JOKE)

Cars 1&2 are doing 75 on the straights and 20-30mph on anyother part of the road where overtaking is impossible. Theres a queue back to Wales behind them. That pretty usual in my experience.

Doctor J

All the way to Wales? Wow! That's a spicy meataballa!

Hey, I've done an advanced driving course and a defensive driving course.

The advanced one helps you get out of trouble.

The defensive one stops you getting into trouble.

I tell you this, I'd reccommend the defensive one every time.

BrianD3

Car 2 is a small engined vehicle, maintaining decent gap looking to overtake and continue at 60mph.

Car 5 barges in between Car 1 and Car 2, causing Car 2 to brake sharply to avoid an accident,

Contradiction there. If car 2 is maintaining a decent gap then there is ample room for an overtaking vehicle to move into, so it's not a case of "barging" into the gap. Problem is that people don't leave a decent gap, because the majority of drivers on Irish roads are tailgaters. Plus they're begrudgers - if they see someone with a better car trying to overtake they'll speed up and/or wil tailgate the vehicle in front to make it more difficult for an overtaking vehicle. I have observed this countless times.

BrianD3

LFCFan

Originally posted by BrianD3
Contradiction there. If car 2 is maintaining a decent gap then there is ample room for an overtaking vehicle to move into, so it's not a case of "barging" into the gap.

Car 2 is driving with resposibility and leaving a gap so he has plenty of time to brake if car 1 has to. So car 5 is acting irresposibly by overtaking into this gap. I've seen it loads of times and I've had to break suddenly because some fcuker has decided to jump in front of me.

Doctor J

Originally posted by BrianD3
Plus they're begrudgers - if they see someone with a better car trying to overtake they'll speed up and/or wil tailgate the vehicle in front to make it more difficult for an overtaking vehicle.

Now that's just nuts. The "better car" syndrome. Essentially you're saying because you've got a "better car" you're entitled to pull off these maneuvres and anyone in a smaller car who doesn't want you planting yourself too close to them is a begrudger?!?!? A begrudger? Are you really that vein?

If they close the gap it's because you're putting their lives in peril, not because they're envious of your car. They're probably p*ssed off because some goon from the back of the queue has just cost them a chance to overtake, which don't come too frequenty in a small car.

Patience is the key. Vanity will cost people their lives.

BrianD3

If they close the gap it's because you're putting their lives in peril, not because they're envious of your car. They're probably p*ssed off because some goon from the back of the queue has just cost them a chance to overtake, which don't come too frequenty in a small car.

Idiot. So you're advocating speeding up and tailgating to block an overtaking maneouvre. Did you learn this in the defensive driving course that you claim you've taken :rolleyes: The only one who's putting lives in peril is you by pulling stunts like that.

BrianD3

fenris

Idiot. So you're advocating speeding up and tailgating to block an overtaking maneouvre. Did you learn this in the defensive driving course that you claim you've taken The only one who's putting lives in peril is you by pulling stunts like that.

I hope we do driving better than we do reading !

He is not advocating anything of the sort, he is offering an understanding of ways people react when they perceive their safety / lives to be endangered.
That would be something that would be covered on a defensive driving course.

It is reasonable to expect the average driver to close up to preserve his safety when he feels himself to be recklessly endangered, so first figure out how to overtake without putting the driver of the car you are passing in fear of his life. Most people on the road are reasonable and just want to get there, some feel they have points to prove and are best avoided or not engaged, learn to recognise them.

The obligation is on the overtaking car to do the overtaking in a safe manner.

If you cannot overtake without other roadusers actively assisting you then the overtake is not viable.

So do it properly or back off, you do not know what is going on in the car in front so drive to minimise risk; risk includes antagonising other drivers and causing them to act unpredictibly.

If you cause a crash because of a poorly executed overtaking manouver, you will be judged to be the party at fault (bus for the next 5 years), so while you may feel that everybody else on the road should make allowances for your driving (do they not know who you are?), the law and the rest of the world does not.

Doctor J

Originally posted by BrianD3
Idiot. So you're advocating speeding up and tailgating to block an overtaking maneouvre. Did you learn this in the defensive driving course that you claim you've taken :rolleyes: The only one who's putting lives in peril is you by pulling stunts like that.

BrianD3

Read it properly. I never said I did and I never said I would. Twat.

You've suggested that people only do this because your car's bigger than their car? Wake up. People are scared on the roads because there are idiots out there pulling into spaces they shouldn't, making overtaking maneuvres they shouldn't etc etc etc.

Personally, I give drivers like you as much space as I can, I don't want to get injured because of your ego/libido/impatience/whatever.

BrianD3

He is not advocating anything of the sort, he is offering an understanding of ways people react when they perceive their safety / lives to be endangered.

Perhaps he's not advocating it, but at the very least he's justifying it. It's quite clear where he stands on this issue. He regards people who overtake more than one vehicle at a time as impatient "goons" Despite his defensive driving courses which according to you should make him more aware than an "average" driver, I would fully expect him to be one of those people who speeds up when someone is trying to overtake.

If you cannot overtake without other roadusers actively assisting you then the overtake is not viable.

Correct. Problem is the overtake may be viable when you start the maneouvre - however if the guy in front floors it when you're in the middle of it, it ceases to be viable. And the excuse that the guy in front speeds up because he perceives his life to be in danger is frankly, bullsh1t. It does come back to begrudery. I have travelled with people in cars who speed up anytime a decent car tries to overtake them, their attitude is "look at that flash bastard in his BMW, who does he think he is" I must add that this doesn't just happen when someoen tries to overtake a queue of traffic. It happens regularly during perfectly safe, single vehicle overtakes.

The obligation is on the overtaking car to do the overtaking in a safe manner.

Yes, and if someone wishes to overtake, there's an obligation on them to ensure it's safe before starting their maneouvre. Which includes checking their mirrors and being aware of what's happening around them and being aware of the presence of vehicles behind them which have commenced an overtake. People do this on motorways all the time - before they pull into the overtaking lane, they check that there isn't already a vehicle overtaking them. For some reason they seem to be incapable of doing this on a single carriageway road.

BrianD3

LFCFan

is it not possible for people to have discussions on boards.ie without resorting to name calling and insults?

BrianD3

You've suggested that people only do this because your car's bigger than their car? Wake up. People are scared on the roads because there are idiots out there pulling into spaces they shouldn't, making overtaking maneuvres they shouldn't etc etc etc.

Yes that's exactly what I suggested and I stand by it. Small car syndrome is what I call it. A lot of drivers of small cars feel they have something to prove, as if they need to assert themselves on the road or something. They do this by being aggressive and inconsiderate. Plus with the insurance situation many drivers of small engined cars are young inexperienced males who regard driving as a form of combat and will pull stunts like speeding up when someone tries to overtake.

Personally, I give drivers like you as much space as I can, I don't want to get injured because of your ego/libido/impatience/whatever.

You're entitled to your opinion. However you've got me all wrong. I drive 40,000 miles per year and am a relatively slow driver. I don't have a fast car (Laguna 1.6 litre) and spend more time being overtaken by twats in 1 litre micras revving their little hairdryer motors to the red line than overtaking other vehicles myself.

BrianD3

Doctor J

Brian, you really need to chill out.

I'm not advocating or justifying anything. I'm trying to give you an insight into the mindset of other drivers. They're not begrudgers, they're just people trying to get from one place to another who don't like to have their safety threatened. Do they care whether the guy causing the grief is in a BMW or a Lada? I wouldn't think so. The car is not the driver of the car, the driver is. The driver makes the decisions, it doesn't matter what the car is.

You don't know me from Adam, yet you expect me "to be one of those people who speeds up when someone is trying to overtake"??? If this is how your percieve unknown others when you encounter them (say, on a road, perhaps), then perhaps everybody else is not at fault, eh?

You say that you spend most of your time being "overtaken by twats in 1 litre micras revving their little hairdryer motors to the red line" yet those overtaken think "look at that flash bastard in his BMW, who does he think he is" when being overtaken?

BigEejit

Heh ... Could all the posters in this thread post their car details and approximate ages ... I just have a mental picture of all of the "3rd+ car back overtaking the other ones is ok" being boy racers and the others who say that "the second car is right in keeping a gap and looking for an opportunity" is ok being family car types......

Personally, I think you can see if someone in front of you is going to overtake or not (peeping around the side of the proverbial 20T truck doing 50 and threatening to use the indicator) and overtake yourself if you judge they wont and there is enough space ..... and I judge myself as a defensive driver, I wont be in and out of traffic trying to get past everyone (where everyone = 5 - 10+ cars), those people annoy me no end. I do have a car with enough power to get around stuff without much problems but I dont do it irresponsibly.....

fenris

What can I say, I bow to your superior psychic powers :-) , being a mere mortal I have to guess what is going on in other peoples heads, and plan accordingly.

It is dangerous to make wild assumptions about other road users, you can infer some data but have to be ready in case you have got it wrong and never end up in a position where you are giving another road user the power of life and death over you if you can avoid it, not that I don't trust you all, well actually it is that I don't trust you all !

It is easy to get wound up on the road, but I prefer to get there !

Car - Laguna 1.6 estate, Bike GSXR1100, age 34.

LFCFan

Seat Cordoba 1.2 - 26

Doctor J

29 - just bought a new 1.1L Hyundai Getz

Driving since 1995, bikes for 3 years before that

Previous job was field service - drove 2.0L Diesel Corolla and 1.8L Diesel Corolla before that, plenty of time spent on the national roads, like to arrive in one piece, thanks.


quote from Fenris - " It is dangerous to make wild assumptions about other road users, you can infer some data but have to be ready in case you have got it wrong and never end up in a position where you are giving another road user the power of life and death over you if you can avoid it, not that I don't trust you all, well actually it is that I don't trust you all !"

Perfect.

BrianD3

You say that you spend most of your time being "overtaken by twats in 1 litre micras revving their little hairdryer motors to the red line" yet those overtaken think "look at that flash bastard in his BMW, who does he think he is" when being overtaken?

Difference is - If I'm being overtaken by a Micra, even if I think the guy's a twat I'd never speed up or attempt to block him, in fact I'll usually move to the hard shoulder (if there is one) momentarily to facilitate him in the interests of road safety. Now contrast that with the people who speed up when being overtaken and call the guy a flash bastard. Bit of a difference there don't you think?

Plus, you're wrong about the car not making a difference. Well known cause of road rage - drivers don't see other drivers as people, they just see the car and make assumptions based on what they see.

As for cars and age:
Age 25, driving since 1995
Current cars driven:
03 Renault Laguna 1.6 (daily driver)
Renault Megane 1.4
Ford Fiesta diesel van
Toyota Landcruiser 3.0 turbodiesel
Mitsubishi L200 crew cab
(last two vehicles usually towing a large trailer)

BrianD3

Doctor J

Originally posted by BrianD3
Plus, you're wrong about the car not making a difference. Well known cause of road rage - drivers don't see other drivers as people, they just see the car and make assumptions based on what they see.

I don't give a damn about what someone drives, I don't think that many people do. Generally the more audacious overtaking maneuvres are done by those cars with a bigger engine, perhaps it inspires blind optimism, I dunno. A car is only as dangerous/fast/slow/safe as the person behind the wheel. Whether it's some kid in a Micra or some suit in a Saab, there is far too much dangerous and irresponsible overtaking going on and it's not the fault of the car.

A few years ago, one of the directors of the company I worked for came to me asking if I knew any Gardai. He had overtaken a line of 8 cars, unfortuantely for him, one of them was an unmarked Garda car. He was rightly charged with dangerous driving. He drove a Volvo. Does it matter that he drove a Volvo? Of course not, if he wasn't such a twat his volvo would have patiently waited for the appropriate moment to overtake the car causing the tailback. Sadly, this was before the days of penalty points.

The nuts and bolts of it as I see it is this: If anyone has to take avoiding action because of someones overtaking, be it brake, swerve, take to the hard shoulder or whatever, then that overtaking move should not have been done. Is that wrong?

LFCFan

Originally posted by Doctor J
The nuts and bolts of it as I see it is this: If anyone has to take avoiding action because of someones overtaking, be it brake, swerve, take to the hard shoulder or whatever, then that overtaking move should not have been done. Is that wrong?

Exactly. If more people realised this and drove with more consideration for not only their own life but those around them, then maybe we wouldn't have such a high death rate on our roads.

Sleipnir

Originally posted by Doctor J
If anyone has to take avoiding action because of someones overtaking, be it brake, swerve, take to the hard shoulder or whatever, then that overtaking move should not have been done.

That's it! That's correct.
Regardless of what's being driven, how well or badly or old how the person driving it is, that statement above is correct.
Not 'about right' or 'under some circumstances' , it's just correct.

If you don't have enough time to overtake the entire line, with room to spare, in one go then you should not have started the overtaking manoeuvre.

If you have to pull in early forcing another car in the queue to brake and make room then you've misjudged in your manoeuvre and erred putting yourself and other road users in danger. Plain and simple.

BrianD3

If you don't have enough time to overtake the entire line, with room to spare, in one go then you should not have started the overtaking manoeuvre.

Ah, but some people here are saying that you shouldn't start the overtake even if you *do* have time and space to take the whole line in one go i.e you should never overtake more than one vehicle at the same time. That's my understanding of their viewpoint anyway. The "cutting in" issue is a separate argument.

BrianD3

RicardoSmith

Theres few scenerios

I guess it comes down to how much of a safety distance you need/want between you and the car in front. If I'm doing 50-60 I'd probably be about 5 lengths back only closing within this if thought there was an opportunity to pass comming up. If some pulls into this space when I'm waiting for an opportunity then fair enough I'll back off and give the guy a chance to try, because obviously he quicker than I am.

However if I've closed up on a guy to within 3 car lengths and I'm having a look every so often to see if I can get past, and then someone moves into that space then I'd be cheesed off.

I guess theres an overlap between both sceneros and from my own experience theres a world of a difference in overtaking in a fast powerful car with powerful brakes than there is driving a standard family saloon, and theres even a bigger difference again if your in some thing like a one litre.

Whichever you drive you should drive appropriately and within your abilities. You should also give due consideration if the drivers you are passing do not seem to be confident or safe of moving at speed, and many aren't. A good indicator of this is someone who is braking a lot, speeding up and slowing down a lot. A good driver is very smooth and keeps a fairly constant speed. They also allow other cars to pass them in a safe manner and do not intentionally impede the progress of other vehicles.

Mileage, experience and the number of cars driven is a facile measurement of driver ability. Some people never learn.

BrianD3

Doctor J, you seem to have this bizarre idea that the 2nd car in a queue of traffic has some God given right to be the first to overtake the lead car. If the driver of the 2nd car for whatever reason will not/cannot overtake then nobody else is allowed to overtake either. Sorry, but this is the attitude of an inconsiderate road hog.

I can see this from both sides - I often drive a jeep/boat trailer combination which is a slow vehicle, certainly slower than your Hyundai. Total length of this is around 38 ft and the speed limit for it is 50 mph. Overtaking is tricky for a number of reasons. Basically if I get stuck behind a vehicle (lets call it Car A) doing 45 mph I'm going to find it hard to get by. I'd need quite a long straight etc. What usually happens in this situation is a queue of traffic quickly builds up behind me and starts getting impatient. Now lets say I exit a bend onto a short straight. Long enough for the car behind to overtake me + Car A safely - but too short for me to overtake Car A myself. Because I'm not a ROAD HOG I'll pull into the hard shoulder if there is one and let the person behind by, making it a helluva lot easier for him. If there's no hard shoulder I will do my best to facilitate him eg making sure that there's enough of a gap in front of me for him to move into should it be necessary. This is called courteous and considerate driving. Maybe you could learn something from it

The nuts and bolts of it as I see it is this: If anyone has to take avoiding action because of someones overtaking, be it brake, swerve, take to the hard shoulder or whatever, then that overtaking move should not have been done. Is that wrong?

That's a generalisation and doesn't apply in all cases. Example: I overtake a car - ONE car to keep you happy. It's a perfectly safe overtake. But in the middle of it the other driver swerves across in front of me without warning. This could happen for many reasons
-driver has a heart attack
-car has a mechancial failure
-driver distracted changing CD, tuning radio, answering mobile phone etc.
One of us (probably me) has to take evasive action to avoid a collision. This means that according to your rule, I should never have attempted the overtake in the first place. But how was I to know that this was going to happen? If everyone were to follow your rule, then you might as well ban overtaking altogether. Hey why not just give up driving altogether if you think it's that dangerous and risky.

Going back to the whole multiple overtaking thing - please show me in the rules of the road where it states that you may only overtake one vehicle at a time.

Finally I suggest you drive in the UK or Germany for a while. You will find that drivers there are far more decisive and even ruthless when it comes to overtaking. If you think Irish drivers are aggressive overtakers, just try those guys you'll be in for a shock.

BrianD3

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by neuromancer
13. Drivers who talk up 2 spaces in a car-park. Usually vans and jeeps.

Where possible park in the marked space so that they have to use the passenger door. Helps if you have an old car...