Motorcycle Accident Rate vs Penalty Points

BigEejit

I'm no expert, just a road user for a good few years, in that time I have seen (or passed soon after) 1 near miss and 2 accidents .... all involving cars and all 100% the fault of the biker ... not saying that car drivers are perfect, but the bikers would have been ok except they were flying and/or not paying much attention to the other road users in front of them or noticing possible problems or generally just being thick
These are the only bike accidents I have seen, it dosent paint a good picture...

I wonder how many of those car/motorbike accident statistics happen at junctions where the flipping motorbike is doing ~100MPH or more and a car pulls out in front (after misjudging the speed of the approaching bike) ... I saw a VERY close shave for a biker in exactly this situation on the Carrigrohane Straight in Cork (that small road connecting to the Model Farm Rd. was where the car came from) ... now I cant estimate exactly the speed of the bike but it was only touching the road in spots ... it squeaked between a car turning right and the car that came out in front of it ... another day and it might have been fatal ...
On a sidenote: I was undertaken on that road (no not the funeral type undertake) by a muppet on a 125cc bike last year ... it took him flipping AGES to pass (at 55 - 60MPH) .. was driving me nuts because of the mosquito type high pitched noise it was making.... I slowed down so the twat wouldnt do something even more stupid

I saw (yes actually saw) an accident outside Killarney (on the Cork Rd., shortly before where the train tracks cross the road) where the biker was tearing and passed me like I was walking (I was doing 45 - 50 and slowing). In front of me (100 - 130 meters) was a car stopped in the middle of the road waiting to turn right and traffic was passing it on the left on the hard shoulder, there was also a lot of traffic coming against us..... the muppet on the bike suddenly found that there was nowhere to go and slowed down a lot (smoke off the tyres) but kind of lost control and the bike slid/turned 90 degrees to the direction of movement and started to lean sideways, no doubt he would have fallen over completely except he came to a sudden stop hitting the car turning right ... it looked like he broke his right arm and leg ... I helped pull his bike off the road ... it was in shit ... the woman car driver was practically catatonic she got such a shock

The last one I came upon was at the traffic lights outside the Bishopstown Bar, it was a idiot Dominos Pizza delivery fella (25ish I would guess) that went through a red light (I suppose it had just changed and he was chancing his arm) and he hit a people carrier type thing (that was luckily nearly stopped) ... I know this because it was July this year and I heard the woman screeching about it to the guards as I passed.....The biker (I know some "real bikers" dont consider honda 50's and scooters drivers to be bikers, but most other road users do) was sitting on the footpath, dunno was he injured or what ... cant have been too bad, there is a hospital les than 300 meters away.... the bike was in sht ....

In all cases it was speed .... I think that if proportionally as many cars drove as quick as bikes do there would be tens of thousands of deaths annually ... I assume that most bikers think that they wont get caught and so dont give a damn

Now ... bikers ..... ready you flames ...... GO!

(What are the bets that all the bikers will concentrate on the last paragraph of this post :rolleyes:)

seamus

BUT my REAL pet peev is gear. Because of the gear I wear (AKITO COUGAR full 2 piece suit only about E400) I didn;t break my knee when I came off, and I was out in 3 hours. I HATE seeing people going out on bikes without gear. Because I know what will happen to them if they don;t wear it!

I have been lax on gear in the past, but I've gotten much more serious about it.

Can't remember where I read it, but at 50mph, tarmac will wear a bare arm down the bone in around 400msec. Something for people to think about next time they decide to cast off their gloves or jacket cos it's a nice day.

Originally posted by BigEejit
In all cases it was speed .... I think that if proportionally as many cars drove as quick as bikes do there would be tens of thousands of deaths annually ... I assume that most bikers think that they wont get caught and so dont give a damn

Worst drivers in the country are in Cork and Donegal. Put a big engine between their legs, and a lax police force, and you'll always get a few extra idiots.

It's no coincidence that most bikers killed in the countryside don't hit anything else, and are just going too fast. A lot of car drivers are no better.
Also, A lot of car drivers can have trouble determining what speed an oncoming bike is going, and that's ok. We determine the speed of an oncoming vehicle by it's change in road position, relative to static objects around, and also in how quickly it increases in size. Motorbikes are little more difficult to judge since for all intents and purposes, a bike is a small straight line travelling towards you, and a car is a big box travelling towards you.
The problem is that a lot of car drivers aren't aware of this change in perception. A lot of car drivers also just don't 'register' a bike when they see it. They're checking for other vehicles and obstacles, and (I know exactly what this is about, I've done it before myself) for some reason a bike just doesn't 'click', for want of a better explanation.

an_taoiseach

"I HATE seeing people going out on bikes without gear. Because I know what will happen to them if they dont wear it!"

Malico, Oh thats so true !

As for people who ride around without gloves...........I just about cry when I see that

Typical response if they come off is to put out their hands. Result is two shredded paws. OMG.

For a good while the Dublin clamper bikers ( if you can call them that ) didnt have gloves - made me wonder how experienced their managers are.

Just as a skid lid has to be worn shouldnt gloves be required by law ?


An T

fozzle

You can't say that all bikers are careless any more than you can say that all car-drivers are. If anything, experienced bikers are safer since they know that in even the smallest accident they're going to come off worst. And on a bike there's very few "small accidents", when you hit the ground, it hurts.

Tbh, most car/bike accidents I've heard about seem to be the fault of the car. My sister saw a biker get creamed in Waterford recently when a eejit came out of a side street onto the Quay and straight into the side of a biker (who wasn't speeding)
Yer man in the car was too shocked to do sh!t so my sis and her friends had to call the cops, check the biker was ok and clear up the bits of bike that were all over the road (bike was a write-off, car only damaged it's bumper)
(Oh, and it's not just on the roads you get assholes;while this was going on my sis's jacket and mobile got nicked off the side of the street:rolleyes: )

Eye

Well i would totally agree with the wearing of protective gear when riding bikes, for the first 2 years or so (1 year on a 125 marauder and 1 on my 650 dragstar) i was kinda on and off with it, i have a full set of leathers and a jumpsuit to cover it for waterproffness, also a full set of heavy padded wet gear, more often than not i would be wearing the heavy wet gear with the weather in this country ya kinda need it. but in the summer time i did occasionally jsut head off with leather jacket, gloves and a regular pair of jeans.

These days however i don't get on my bike unless i have got full leathers on, never had and accident, but i think what happened to change my perspective on it was a mate of mine, been driving bikes about 12 years or so, had an old yamaha FJ 1100 which he had for years and well the bike has travelled pretty much all over europe.
Anyway long story short, after many years with only 1 or 2 minor accidents to his name, he changed his bike and bought a Thunder Ace 1000, with the bike 2 weeks old and less than 300 miles on the clock, one day leaving work travelling home he was taking a corner at about 50ish on the main road, some guy in a car pulled out in front of him from a side road and said he did'nt see a thing, anyways, my mate hit the brakes to avoid the car (not raining at the time, had been earlier in the day, road was a little damp but drying pretty quick) but even so when he hit the breaks the front of the bike slide and off he went skidding along the road.

The bike skidded off, demolished a road sign before burying itself into a wall, luckely he just rolled for a bit but did'nt hit anything. His new bike was a write off and he was fine apart from a slightly bruised knee, arm and ego.

Well since then i've reallised that even with years of experience under your belt it only takes 1 car to drive out infront of you and you is gonna be hurtin so now it's full leathers everywhere i go, even in the middle of summer in the sweltering heat still wont wear anything less.

The thing i hate most is in my town there are, like loads of other towns across ireland, lots of kids on scooters. Some of these retards drive around town with the helmet sitting on top of there heads, not actually wearing properly, up on top of their head so they can smoke, have a drink or chat to there mates on the side of the street without taking it off. To top it off they are the ones who tear in and out of traffic not giving a damn about any other road users or pedestrians.
Now i know it's not a nice thing to do but i'd really like to see one of these guys get creamed sometime to show their 'mates' what could happen to them, not nice i know but maybe they would cop the hell on :-\

BigEejit, fair enough you yourself only say those particular incidents and fair enough the bikers may very well have been at fault, but like wise there are just as many incidents that would show that cars were at fault. But with regard to the guy you said was on the domino's honda 50..... those guys have gotta be suicidal, i've been driving through waterford a few times and been overtaken by these guys and watching them as they drive on i would'nt even dare to try keep up with them with the crazy things they try to do.

Also as you said about us 'real bikers' not thinking that peeps on scooters and honda 50's are bikers too, that is totally true i would be first to admit i can't stand scooters even though nearly 6 years ago that's exactly how i got started as it was all i could afford, moved onto a 125 and now on a 650. To this day when driving about i'll salute almost any biker i meet on the roads, i just refuse to sallute scooters
Its funny when ya driving a good size bike and you salute a little rg80/125 or intruder 125, they kinda look at you as if to say 'i don't know you, what you saluting me for?' the bigger the bike to more salutes you tend to see

As a final note, i have to say i'm quite impressed with truck drivers down around the waterford/south tipp area, i rarely have any problems with them, if they see me coming up behind 9 times outta 10 they pull in if it's safe to and leave me pass, not many cars do, a few here and there but that's about it :-\ but again anytime someone pulls in to let me buy i'll always salute to say thanks

/End of Rant

an_taoiseach

"Well since then i've reallised that even with years of experience under your belt it only takes 1 car to drive out infront of you and you is gonna be hurtin so now it's full leathers everywhere i go, even in the middle of summer in the sweltering heat still wont wear anything less."

'1 car' .... or even one unexpected pothole on a bend.........

Puts you out of line...........to the outside of the bend.........into an 8 wheel quarry truck ( no way it can stop with a full load ) comming the other way

Happened me once except I was about 5 seconds ahead of the truck and passed him 'on the inside'

Lucky ? Yup, Big Time Lucky


An T

Krusty_Clown

I would urge those posters who make sweeping generalisations about bikers or car drivers who have not had the opportunity to spend some time in the other mode of transport, to refrain from commenting...

If you're a car-driver and have never ridden a bike, go ride one before you decide who is at fault in most cases, in motorcycle accidents.

If you're a bike-rider, go drive a car for a while, before you insist that all drivers are bad, and need lessons..

Bikes are not a very safe mode of transport. Even the safest biker in the world is susceptible to being hit by another vehicle, and your chances of escaping injury, in this event, are slim.. This is unfortunately why there is such focus in the media on motorcycle deaths. When two cars collide on the N11 in Ashbourne, but nobody is killed, it doesn't make the newspapers. If the same accident involves a bike, there is a more significant chance that there will be a fatality.. It makes better press, it gets published.

When renewing your Tax disc (yes motorcyclists do pay road tax!), the goverment provides you with a leaflet which in essence reads (can't remember the exact wording/statistics):
In 80%+ of all road accidents involving motorcyclists, the motorcyclist is found not be be at fault..

Unfortunately, in these incidents, it is the motorcyclist who suffers.

As a bike rider and car driver of many years, I will say this:
There are many motorcyclists and car drivers who do not obey the rules of the road. There are many motorcyclists and car drivers who could do with some basic training, and some manners..

For every time you see a motorcyclist on the wrong side of a white line, you will see 10 cars drivers going through red lights with mobile phones held prone..

For every time you see a motorcyclist use a bus-lane, you will see 10 car drivers change lane suddenly without indicating.

For every time you see a motorcyclist exceed the speed limit, you will see 10 cars doing so as well...

Motorcycling isn't just a hobby, it's a demonstration of survival instincts!

<end rant>

Suzuki Sv1000s rider / Renauld Megane Scenic driver..

projectmayhem

irish road users, wether it be by car or motorbike, are incompetant. it's ridiculous at this rate... so many people loosing their lives needlessly in a country with such a small population

Victor

Sorry guys, I meant to post this last week, which was the premise of my statement in the other thread. While overall road deaths are down 9% motorbikes are up 27% - for an effective 40% increase relative to other users.

Krusty_Clown

Victor: While overall road deaths are down 9% motorbikes are up 27% - for an effective 40% increase relative to other users.

These are interesting statistics, but you shouldn't take them on face value..
The number of ways these can be interpreted, makes them almost redundant..

Some suggested possiblities:
1) There are more motorcyclists on the road
2) There are more cars on the road
3) Poor car drivers are switching to becoming poor motorcyclists
4) Queues for driving tests mean greater numbers of car drivers on the road without proper training.
5) Unavailability of rider training means more untrained riders on the road
6) Deteriorating road surface
7) etc., etc..
While 40% seems like a huge percentage, you really have to look at a larger sample to get more useful data. Over recent weeks, I haven't heard of any motorcycle deaths, and yet have read of a large number of 4-wheel'ed vehicle fatalities, so this week, you'd be looking at a completely different table, with a completely different set of percentages..

I don't mean to belittle your data, I just think you need to put it into context, and look at a more meaningful sample..

I'd love to see statistics that discuss:
1) The age profile of victims of motorcycle accidents
2) The profile of the actual motorcycles involved
3) Days and times of the week
4) Recorded root cause of the accident (where no other vehicles are suspected of being involved(no witnesses), include these as unknown)
5) The licensing details and training details of the bike rider..

I reckon, over time, that these would be a more useful set of statistics...

I'm not arguing that motorcyclists are more vulnerable, that's a given.
More time should be spent trying to figure out why the motorcyclists are dying.

Victor

Originally posted by Krusty_Clown
These are interesting statistics, but you shouldn't take them on face value..
The number of ways these can be interpreted, makes them almost redundant..

Some suggested possiblities:
1) There are more motorcyclists on the road
2) There are more cars on the road
3) Poor car drivers are switching to becoming poor motorcyclists
4) Queues for driving tests mean greater numbers of car drivers on the road without proper training.
5) Unavailability of rider training means more untrained riders on the road
6) Deteriorating road surface
7) etc., etc..
While 40% seems like a huge percentage, you really have to look at a larger sample to get more useful data. Over recent weeks, I haven't heard of any motorcycle deaths, and yet have read of a large number of 4-wheel'ed vehicle fatalities, so this week, you'd be looking at a completely different table, with a completely different set of percentages..

I don't mean to belittle your data, I just think you need to put it into context, and look at a more meaningful sample..

I'd love to see statistics that discuss:
1) The age profile of victims of motorcycle accidents
2) The profile of the actual motorcycles involved
3) Days and times of the week
4) Recorded root cause of the accident (where no other vehicles are suspected of being involved(no witnesses), include these as unknown)
5) The licensing details and training details of the bike rider..

I reckon, over time, that these would be a more useful set of statistics...

I'm not arguing that motorcyclists are more vulnerable, that's a given.
More time should be spent trying to figure out why the motorcyclists are dying.

I was talking to Conor Faughnan yeasterday and we're going to try to get more information than is included in hte NRA report.

an_taoiseach

Good work Victor.

What do you think about trying to include figures expressing the accident rate for each mode of transport per 100,000 kM travelled ? ( indeed, would anyone know how to estimate the kM travelled figures ? )

An T

Victor

Originally posted by an_taoiseach
indeed, would anyone know how to estimate the kM travelled figures

The NRA has roadside counters that calculate an approximate total for vehicle km - I don't think they can discriminate between vehicles.

Another method is the cordon count done by Dublin City Council which approximates the number of different types of users in the city.

Do Road Tax records record mileage?

Big al

Do Road Tax records record mileage

No