IRMA trying to close down cd wow

BaZmO*

Originally posted by seamus
Because U2 get a smaller cut in Hong Kong, than they do in Europe, in order to keep the price lower in Asia. Presumably to try and stimulate demand in a tough market. Europeans like european music, so the record labels can charge more because people will buy it.

That's very true.
But it's funny though that established fans get punished in the name of marketing!! :rolleyes:
It'd be like you're local pub doing half price specials for tourists and sure feck the locals they can pay full whack sure won't the be being the drink anyway!!!



by TMB

So I'm supporting Irish Artists, and lining HMV's pockets at the same time. Why reduce my choice and make me suffer?

I don't understand what you mean by that??


B.

Originally posted by BaZmO*

I work around the corner from the Square in Tallaght so on my lunch break I went around to HMV to buy it. I was surprised to see that it was priced at €16.99 which I think is a bit expensive for a covers CD but it’s for charity so it’s for a good cause. Before I bought it though, I thought that I’d go into Virgin just to see how much they were selling it for and was absolutely gobsmacked to see that they were selling it €19.99!!! The robbing bastards!!!

You should bring that up first thing monday morning with Ray D'arcy.
ray@todayfm.com

mm

BaZmO*

Originally posted by Man
You should bring that up first thing monday morning with Ray D'arcy.
ray@todayfm.com

mm

Way ahead of you there M!! I've already sent me e-mail!!:D

The thing is though, and I've said this in my mail to Ray DeeeeArcy, they probably don't want to rock the boat as they would want the CD to be made available in as many shops as possible, but having said that, Virgin aren't doing the charity any favours by making the CD so expensive!!

B.

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by whosurpaddy
so y dont cdwow just hit IRMA with that. surely if none of their members products are stocked then they have no case what so ever?

i am thinking because of the free publicity. they should lap it all up

krattapopov

i just know that the likes of hmv, golden discs, virgin and tower are leaning on irma to take this action against cdwow....... so that they can maintain the cartel that they have at the moment when it comes to cd sales..... cdwow dont just sell music they sell dvd's and games as well, are they breaking any "copyright" laws by doing this too?

the fact is for years music shops have been selling at a very profitable mark up price, now they know that the tide is turning against them and the public are realising that they do not have to pay extraordinary prices

god i hate IRMA, i used to work in a little tiny petrol station and we had a little portable radio playing tapes, one day an IRMA person came in and demanded that we stop playing the tapes because the garage did not have a license... of course we didnt stop!!!

finally, for my diploma in business that i did last year i hate to pretend set up a company, mine was long the lines of cdwow, i wont go into much detail, but what i will say is that i would have been selling cd's at the price of 13:95 that were bought here and i would still have made enough money i think!!! but i contacted IRMA to get information and they informed me that depending on how much "profit" i was going to make in my venture i would have to pay a certain amount to them because I was selling music! if anyone has further info on that id like to hear it, as my memory is a bit sketchy as to what the figures were

anyway boo hiss, IRMA lick dogs willies

kaimera

isn't this magical.

I get home from college to find my ****ing online shoping site is being harrassed by the IRMA ffs.
[i dont read the paper or watch the news in college]

so online I went and spent €80+ on music and dvds from cdwow.ie

BigEejit

I heard Dave Fanning mention that one time when U2 played in Ireland they had to pay IRMA (in advance) to play their own music and got the money back several months later minus IRMA's fee .... isn't it bonkers .... just goes to show whose side IRMA is on .... their own

ciderandhavoc

Originally posted by yellum
Levis tried this before with a retailer in the UK (was it tesco ? ) who were importing cheaper Levis from the states or asia. I believe Levis lost.

Seems like a good campaign for RipOffIreland.org to run with.

No you're wrong, Levis won absolutely, and that about the sourcing for sale of goods from outside the EU Trade zone.

This is different, this is the consumer buying in from HongKong, and paying the excise on it (all CDWOW box have declarations on them).

IRMA have no case.

shabbyroad

Ha ! are we surprised ?


Your message

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robbie1876

www.cd-wow.com.hk are now selling the top 6 chart CDs for HK$79 each. That equates to €8.47 per CD according to XE.com. This is unbelievable! I'm off to Virgin to see what the 6 CDs cost there.

Holy Christmas Presents!!

BTW the CDs on offer are:

Dido - Life for Rent
Westlife - Turnaround (Ltd edition with bonus VCD)
Kylie - Body Language
Blue - Guilty
Pink - Try This
Robbie Williams - Live Summer 2003

Most other chart CD are still at HK$94.99 (€10.18)

robbie1876

Dido - Life for Rent
Westlife - Turnaround (Ltd edition with bonus VCD)
Kylie - Body Language
Blue - Guilty
Pink - Try This
Robbie Williams - Live Summer 2003

Ok, for these CDs in HMV, The Pavillions, Swords - €19.99 each except for Blue which was €20.99.

Total HMV price for the 6 CDs - €120.94

Total CDWOW price for the 6 CDs - €50.82

Now I know HMV have overheads, rent, staff etc, but personally I'd rather the €70 difference in my pocket than theirs.

shabbyroad

and how much of that €70 would have ended up in the artists pocket ?

I'm guessing much less than 50%
I'd go as far as guessing less than 10% (those artists that have actually recouped and aren't in debt to the label).

robbie1876

and how much of that €70 would have ended up in the artists pocket ?

I'm guessing 0%. Now I'm no expert in music royalties, but I believe that this is roughly the way it works:

The record company sells the records to the shops / CDWOW etc. For each record sold, the record company must pay the publisher a fee. Typically the fee is approx 7c per song on the record. So ten songs = 70c. Of this the artists are usually on a 50% deal with the publisher, so they get 35c per album sold by the record company, no matter what outlet it is sold to.

Furthermore, if you take the cost to produce a CD with booklet etc, lets say it's €1.50 (figure plucked out of the air, sorry) plus the 70c it owes to the publisher, plus a 150% margin to cover other promotional stuff, total cost to the outlet of approx €5.50.

Now my maths could be miles off. Anyone here know what the cost price of an album actually is to an outlet? Would be curious to know.

LoneGunM@n

As said before don't know by who & I'm too lazy to go look, but Mary Harney told us that the reason we are being ripped off [or other words to that effect] is because we don't shop around ... but when we do, the corporate big wigs lean on someone a little & our shopping round shops are being targeted for legal action ... fcuking greedy ba$tards!!

Plus, why should we be forced to pay greater royalty costs because of the fact that the market is already formed here!!

I'm sure the artists couldn't give a flying fcuk about where we buy our cds etc from, as long as we buy them & don't download them ... as I'm sure they get the same royalties regardless [open to correction]

ixoy

Well my mum wants a CD for Xmas. I've never used cdwow before but you can be DAMN sure I'm buying it there. Thanks for helping with my Christmas shopping decisions IRMA

rayve

hey guys as a guy who works in the music business just a word of warning.
your issue should be with the wasters who style themselves as IMRO. These guys are worse than the Mafia.
They take your money on every sale made of your favourite music, pretend to pass it on to the artist but fail miserably to do so . Just ask Donal Lunny and any other Irish artist.

shabbyroad

IMRO bill the labels/manufacturers directly. I can't say I've had nothing but fair dealings with IMRO however that's as a label (I make recordings and pay IMRO for the permission to manufacture CDs with my recordings of those songs).
As a songwriter I have nothing published so nothing coming back from them.
However a friend of mine who has had some success with songs he wrote doesn't rate them at all - they're not at all good if you've got foreign income (often overlooked) - he'd prefer to work via the UK organizations.

The thing that IRMA aren't telling us is that the reason the royalty paid to artists in (for example) Hong Kong is lower than in Europe is because the record labels contract the artists that way. It's not the consumers fault. The problem is the contract between the label & artist and not enterprising companies like CDWOW. If the contract wasn't weighed so much against the artist there wouldn't be a problem. IRMA closing down CDWOW.IE is not going to improve anything for the artist - folks will still find a way to order from Asia.
Really they're an example of a dinosaur not being able to cope with a new business environment. People (that's you and I folks) have seen this coming for years.. some of us (CDWOW.IE, DVDRENTALS.IE) are making success for themselves because they understand what it's going to take to make a buck in this new world order....

ReefBreak

IRMA have put a list of (ahem) CDWow "Facts" on their front page....

CD Wow IS engaged in an illegal activity
They are engaged in copyright and trade mark infringement, illegal under EU laws. The EU has these laws to protect European jobs.
CDWow are importing nothing. The consumer buys from a company in Hong Kong. If it's illegal, then Amazon are also illegal.

They buy products at very low prices in the Far East and thereby ensure huge profits for themselves by shipping into wealthier markets (EU)
Where are CD Cases made? Where are blank CDs made? Where was that Action Man toy made that you bought for your son? Buy cheap, sell dear (though not as dear as HMV). Anyway, it called good business.

The price they charge does not include VAT (21%) at a huge cost to the Exchequer
The VAT on CDs is a tiny fraction of the Exchequer revenue.

They contribute nothing to Ireland giving no employment, paying no taxes in Ireland.
Good point, but the price difference is too much for me to actually care. Lower your prices in Ireland and we'll reconsider.

The average VAT on a full price CD is €4.
And?

The average marketing spend by record companies on a chart CD is €3.
Oh well then that's fine, I don't buy your crappy chart CDs.

They carry none of the overheads of regular retail shops: employees, buildings, fixtures & fittings etc.
See Page 1, Paragraph 1 on the "Reasons to Start a Business on the Internet" Manual.

CD Wow is already injuncted in Germany and is being sued in Ireland and the UK
CD Wow knows that they will lose these cases but will continue profiteering up to the last minute.
They've losty nothing yet, and they probably won't.

Remember every CD Wow purchase is a nail in the coffin of an Irish job.
Again, good point, but the price difference is too much for me to actually care. Lower your prices in Ireland and we'll reconsider. Anyway, most employment in retail stores in Ireland is temp., low-wage work.

WHEN CD Wow is shut down, it is not advisable to have your credit card details in cyber space.
Utter bollóx. Credit Card details at CDWow are handled through WorldPay (http://www.worldpay.ie/). They seem to be a reputable organisation, so I'll take my chances thankyouverymuch. And who the hell calls it "Cyber Space" any more?

Tring International plc (mainly owned by CD Wow's majority share holder, Phillip Robinson) has already been successfully sued for piracy on several occasions.
I know nothing about this, so I won't comment.

BuffyBot

(

(http://www.worldpay.ie/).

...owned by Royal Bank of Scotland, the 5th largest banking group in the planet I beleive. I'd imagine that is as secure as it gets really.

Wonder if RBS would be impressed with IRMA?

Ste.phen

TO: info@irma.ie

Hi,
Regarding the "facts" presented on the front page of your website, a few issues seem to have been missed by yourselves;

> CD Wow IS engaged in an illegal activity
Despite no mention of what this illegal activity may be, you still present it as a fact, with the case pending, this statement cannot possibly be condiered true, as it assumes you will be successful in your action.


> They are engaged in copyright and trade mark infringement,
>illegal under EU laws. The EU has these laws to protect European jobs.
The EU has these laws to protect the interest of multinational record producers. CD-wow, in shipping from Hong Kong are not breaking any copyright laws, as the transaction takes place in Hong Kong, and they do not import their goods into the EU prior to sale.


> They buy products at very low prices in the Far East and thereby
> ensure huge profits for themselves by shipping into wealthier markets (EU)
They also SELL at very low prices, lowering their margins and increasing sales volumes in the EU, something HMV, etc have yet to figure out.

>The price they charge does not include VAT (21%) at a huge cost to the
>Exchequer
This is absolutely nothing to do with CD-wow as all their packages include the necessary customs declarations. The Onus is on An Post to collect the VAT on these goods. Also, you do not specify what this "huge cost" is, harming your point.

> They contribute nothing to Ireland giving no employment,
> paying no taxes in Ireland.
Nor do many other retailers or record labels, who you appear to be acting on behalf of. Again this is not backed up with evidence.


> The average VAT on a full price CD is €4.
This is irrelevent except when considered with the point about VAT, which again is not the responsibilty of CD-Wow.


> The average marketing spend by record companies on a chart CD is €3.
This is totally irrelevent to the action taken by yourselves against CD-wow, and if anything, harms your point by showing consumers the artifically high prices imposed by the record companies to pay for this marketing.


> They carry none of the overheads of regular retail shops:
> employees, buildings, fixtures & fittings etc
Perhaps this is because they ARENT a regular retail shop, I'm sure the warehouse industry has overheads also.


> CD Wow is already injuncted in Germany and is being sued in Ireland
> and the UK
CD wow is being sued by yourselves in Ireland, and in the UK I believe it is by Play.com who operate a similar service under similar principles, hardly an unbiased action. I cannot speak on the German action as i do not know anything about it, however cases pending cannot be considered evidence of wrongdoing by the company at any rate.


> CD Wow knows that they will lose these cases but
> will continue profiteering up to the last minute
"Profiteering" is more the preserve of irish retailers and distributers selling CDs at 15-23 euro, than of CD-wow selling at 14.

> Remember every CD Wow purchase is a nail in the coffin of an Irish job.
I dont suppose anyone intends on even *attempting* to prove this, do they?

> WHEN CD Wow is shut down, it is not advisable to have your
> credit card details in cyber space
Assuming CD-wow is shut down, which is unlikely as thusfar Irish courts have no Jurisdiction in China, there will be no additional risk to my credit card details as i have never provided these to CD-wow, but rather worldpay, a well respected paymeny processor used by many companies including Irish Artist Damien Rice (www.damienrice.com)


> Tring International plc (mainly owned by CD Wow's majority
> share holder, Phillip Robinson) has already been successfully
> sued for piracy on several occasions.
I don't know anything about this action, however its still totally irrelevent to this action, as it involves a different company and different circumstances, i believe the action in question was related to who owned the copyright on certain Bob Marley recordings? I presume Tring International lost the case, but i see no mention on your part as to whether they complied with the ruling?

I'd appreciate some response to these comments,
Regards,
Stephen

Ste.phen

I doubt i was totally accurate there, but still...

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Igy
TO: info@irma.ie
> CD Wow is already injuncted in Germany and is being sued in Ireland
> and the UK
CD wow is being sued by yourselves in Ireland, and in the UK I believe it is by Play.com who operate a similar service under similar principles, hardly an unbiased action. I cannot speak on the German action as i do not know anything about it, however cases pending cannot be considered evidence of wrongdoing by the company at any rate.

afaik its the BPI (british version of irma) suing cd-wow not play.com . See register story here

Ste.phen

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
afaik its the BPI (british version of irma) suing cd-wow not play.com . See register story here

I stand corrected.
I read the register pretty much every day, surprised i missed that..

oh well, they're not likely to read my email anyways.

viking

Dear Sir/Madam,

[blah blah ...]

4) The price they charge does not include VAT (21%) at a huge cost to the Exchequer
Without specifying the "huge cost" that IRMA alleges CD Wow cause the Exchequer due to the price not including VAT, I must comment that CD Wow's packages are clearly marked with all the custom declarations. However, may I also point out that the Revenue Commissioners have some reliefs available for "goods imported via the Internet" (http://www.revenue.ie/faqs/custbref.htm#q6 also http://www.revenue.ie/pdf/e_commerce/chapter6.pdf): "Packages [...] with a value of €22 regardless of status (for private or commercial use) are admitted free of customs duty and VAT under the scheme commonly known as 'small packages' relief". Therefore purchasing a CD from CDWow with a value of €14 will not incur any duty or VAT when imported into Ireland. IRMA's statement here is wholly incorrect.

[blah blah...]

<edit> removed the other points that other people have stated already</edit>

Mossy Monk

looks like IRMA are desperate

they are a sad shower of cretins. i hope they rot in hell :mad:

monument

Another alternative - Play.com - normaly takes about a week for postage.

meatball

People still pay for music?

monument

Originally posted by meatball
People still pay for music?

Some people still don’t steal it, if that’s what you mean.

Mossy Monk

Originally posted by meatball
People still pay for music?

i like the full package compared to a blank cd in a small case

Capt'n Midnight

Ok maybe U2 don't get as much comission off each CD in the Asian market - but they should get the same % eh ? [edit]one of the links below suggest foreign sales only get 50% of the home % [/edit]

So I reckon that the artists don't loose out because even though they get a smaller slice, they get many more of them...

Which would you rather - One CD for €20 or two for €12 each ???

CD Costs
http://www.taxi.com/transmitter0307/tips0307.html
Major labels pay approximately $.50 to $.55 per CD. Independent labels that order more than 100,000 CDs a year pay approximately $.65 per CD. Labels that buy less than 10,000 CDs a year pay approximately $1.20 per CD. These costs include the printing of 4-page package inserts and tray cards.

Links to Artists % from record companies
http://www.mosesavalon.com/hints#srlp
most CDs really sell for the marked down list price
http://www.hitheads.com/Version%20IE/recording.htm
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/music-royalties6.htm
Have a look at the Internet Royalties bit at the bottom

http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/DATABASES/MIE/Part1_introduction.html
The mechanical royalties are not paid directly to the composer but to the national authors society. These societies are a unique type of non-profit organization owned by composers themselves. The authors grant the societies the power to administer most of the legal rights given to composers and other creators under copyright law. In turn, the societies act as a "one stop" for record companies, concert promoters, broadcasters and others who wish to use copyright music.
There is only one authors' society in each European Union country and that society has reciprocal agreements with sister organizations in other countries so that it can administer the rights of foreign composers. The positive value for both copyright owners and music users of the collective administration of rights by authors societies has been recognized as beneficial by national governments and the European Commission.