Irish Recorded Music Association sues cdwow

Xterminator

I see an artical in toady indo, notes that IRMA are suing CDWOW because they are distributing imported cd's at a fraction of the proce the high street stores sell them at.

I hope that this is rejected fr the court, as the comptition from online stores is the only hope we have for reasonable priced consumer goods.
IRMA obviously supports Rip-off Ireland!

Instead of tackling the issue (i.e. why cd's can be released cheaper overseas (usually in asia/austraila) they are shooting the messanger.

X

P.S. I'm not posting the link as you need to register to access it!

Here is the text instead
"Web firm sued over cheap CD imports


THE Irish Recorded Music Association (IRMA) is suing the website cdwow.com for alleged illegal supply of cheap CDs from the Far East to Irish consumers, using the so-called grey market, writes Aideen Sheehan.

They are taking the action under "Parallel Imports" legislation which forbids the distribution of goods into Europe without the permission of the copyright owner. The CDs are not pirated copies, but legitimate versions released in Hong Kong at much lower prices than those charged within Europe.

IRMA Director Dick Doyle said that they are suing cdwow.com and its founder Philip Robinson personally and the company is also being sued in the UK and Germany."

sovtek

Ahhhhh... the beauty of a jilted cartel.

bonkey

Whats not beautiful is that the kilted cartel stand a good chance of winning this case, because they have gotten these laws put in place to protect their interests....

"We can sell to the Asians for next to nothing, but you can't buy it there, bring it back, and still sell it for less then we retail at here".

Uh-huh.

jc

sovtek

Originally posted by bonkey
Whats not beautiful is that the kilted cartel stand a good chance of winning this case, because they have gotten these laws put in place to protect their interests....

"We can sell to the Asians for next to nothing, but you can't buy it there, bring it back, and still sell it for less then we retail at here".

Uh-huh.

jc

Sadly I beleive you are right. It's like the RIAA in America being allowed to invade privacy and track down people over the internet, essentially giving private companies policing powers.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by bonkey
Whats not beautiful is that the kilted cartel stand a good chance of winning this case, because they have gotten these laws put in place to protect their interests....

"We can sell to the Asians for next to nothing, but you can't buy it there, bring it back, and still sell it for less then we retail at here".

Uh-huh.

jc

Ah, but unless IRMA manage to completely shut down CDWow, it won't make a difference. I could still log into cdwow.com.hk (or cdwow.co.uk, etc) to purchase my CDs/Games/DVDs. Granted, a legal action by a European-wide Group might do it, but who's to say another CDWow clone won't start up elsewhere. Anyway, I can still shop at Play.com.

sunbeam

Play are based in Jersey which is outside the EU (though some of their packages seem to come from Belgium), so they may well be targeted next.

secret_squirrel

Im not sure that the situation with play isnt a little more complicated since some of their stuff ships from belgium and of Jersey's status as part of the UK. (afaik)

Incidentally MODS there are also threads on this subject in :

Bargains
RipOffIreland
Afterhours
Music radio.

Something tells me this one is gonna be a hottie!

mike65

This was on Morning Ireland today unfortunatly
the discussion between the big cheese from CDWOW and the guy from Irish Music Retail Ripoff Inc was chaired by David Hanly who has proberly never bought a CD over net in his life and so did'nt make the obvious point -
Even if CDWOW.ie/de/co.uk etc is closed down there are 1001 other places you can buy CDs/DVDs etc for much less than you'd pay on the high street here. This is a battle the shops will loose sooner or later.

Mike.

secret_squirrel

Im sending this email to all my mates. what do ya think?

Subject : Music Industry trying to shut Down CD-WOW (no more cheap cd's)

Hi,

Just thought Id mail you and see if you knew about what the Irish Recorded Music Association (IRMA) is trying to do to one of the best websites for buying cheap cd's, dvd's and games - WWW.CDWOW.IE . IRMA are suing cd-wow in Ireland in a bid to stop them shipping cheap cd's in from abroad, thus forcing us consumers to pay the extortionate prices of their friends in the music retail business. This is just the tip of the iceberg - it could happen all over Europe.

Well I don’t know about you but I think this stinks, if they are allowed to get away with this we will either be forced to pay rip-off prices or use software like kazaa to download music illegally. I am sending the below mail to the IRMA (info@irma.ie) or pasting it at http://www.irma.ie/contact.asp and also to my local TD and to my MEP - Can I suggest you do the same?



TO IRMA
info@irma.ie
or
paste it at :
http://www.irma.ie/contact.asp

Dear Sir/Madam

RE : IRMA actions against cd-wow.

I would just like to share my anger and outrage over the actions the Irish Recorded Music Association (IRMA) are taking against the website www.CDWOW.ie If the IRMA are allowed to get away with this it will usher the yet another example of the consumer being ripped off.

The IRMA have seem to have forgotten that it is because of us consumers that your members make all their profits - if IRMA's members stop attempting to rip us off we wouldn't feel the need to use a website that is massively cheaper than the retail stores (and their websites).

I suggest you put your resources to better use and actually try to get your members to lower their extortionate prices - after all that would be better in the long run for Consumers, Artists and the Record Industry.

Please halt this abuse of your industry position.

If you succeed in your action against CD-WOW I shall do my best to make sure I never buy music in Ireland again.

Yours Sincerely


Secret squirrel.


To your local TD/MEP/MP

Dear Sir/Madam

RE : IRMA actions against cd-wow.

I would just like to share with you my anger and outrage over the actions the Irish Recorded Music Association (IRMA) are taking against the website www.CDWOW.ie If the IRMA are allowed to get away with this it will usher the yet another example of the voting public being ripped off.

IRMA are suing the website www.CDWOW.ie to prevent them from selling cheap cd's to the Irish market. This is just another case of the Irish consumer being ripped off.

I would ask that you contact them and ask halt this abuse of their industry position, before it results in the Irish music buying public boycotting the music industry completely in this country. It is a case of the music industry trying to maintain an outdated monopoly at the expense of the Irish consumer. Please join your voters and help us express our anger at IRMA.

Yours sincerely


secret squirrel.

Victor

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
Im not sure that the situation with play isnt a little more complicated since some of their stuff ships from belgium and of Jersey's status as part of the UK. (afaik)

Jersey is not part of the UK or EU.

gurramok

Huh ?
Jersey is a part of the UK along with the rest of the channel islands.
What makes Jersey prices cheaper is that they pay no VAT on goods to the London exchequer nor pay any capital gains tax.

explanation here

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Victor
Jersey is not part of the UK or EU.

Its more complicated than that victor.

From here

"1973 Channel Islands granted Associate status of the EEC"

and afaik the Channel Islands are still have the Queen as their head of state although they are almost completely self governing, which probably means there is some convoluted legal/business relationship with the UK in addition to being a tax haven.

therecklessone

Originally posted by sunbeam
Play are based in Jersey which is outside the EU (though some of their packages seem to come from Belgium), so they may well be targeted next.

They've already been targeted, IIRC. UK Customs has a bee in its bonnet because of what they consider to be Play's flaunting of Jersey's special status to get around customs duties.

I believe that's why Play ship all goods in seperate packages, because they need to be below a certain price to avoid customs.

chill

Originally posted by secret_squirrel
Im sending this email to all my mates. what do ya think?

Now THAT is the BEST thing to do ! And I suggest every one else here does the same thing BY LETTER ! not by email btw.

Cork

I think that competition needs to be encouraged. The interview on Morning Ireland was like something out of the 1930s - protectionisim.

The Internet is here to stay. This interview should have been more consumer focused.

therecklessone

From hotpress.com [requires membership]

Internet Operator May Be Forced To Cease Activities

IRMA Chairman, Dave Pennefather, has confirmed to hotpress.com that the organisation is pursuing legal proceedings against cdwow.ie to force the operation out of the Irish market.

“A court order has already been given in Germany, an action is underway in the U.K. and we have one pending here,” Pennefather, who is also Irish MD of Universal Music, told hotpress.com. “It’s taken a while because of the difficulty we’ve had contacting the principles in the operation – but it is happening. As far as we’re concerned, what they’re doing is illegal.

“From what we can gather, they’re sourcing the stuff in sweatshop economies, where salaries may be no more than 10 euro a week. They are buying CDs in countries where product is cheap, and they’re selling it into Europe without paying VAT. They’re also avoiding paying import duty. Of course it’s hard for legitimate retailers to compete with them on price.”

Pennefather’s verdict is backed by Denis Woods of Warner Music.

“They don’t pay VAT. They don’t employ Irish people. They don’t contribute in any way to the Irish economy,” he says. “There is no way that you can legitimately compare them to people like HMV and Golden Discs, good retail operations who have been coming under a lot of unfair criticism from the likes of Joe Duffy on RTE over the past week.”

In relation to price differentials between retailers, a topic which has occupied considerable media attention in recent days, Woods is dismissive of the idea that people are being ‘ripped off’.

“On the contrary, the fact that prices are different is a good thing,” he says. “That’s the cut and thrust of a competitive market at work. Sony may do a deal with a retailer one week, that allows them to sell their product cheaper. We’ll do a different deal with another retailer. That’s the way it works because we’re all fighting for market share and for sales. It amazes me that people comment on the radio about these things who seem to have so little understanding of how retailing works – they’re just totally ignorant about it but they still feel free to pontificate.

“I also wonder why it’s always CDs that people focus on,” he adds. “Why not cameras? The prices here are dearer than they are in the US, often by as much as 50%. They also vary widely from retailer to retailer. If I see a Canon G5 on sale for 900 Euro in one shop and 1,000 Euro in another, I don’t think the guy who’s charging more is ripping anyone off. I know that the guy offering it at the lower price has been able to deal based on volume or marketing spend or whatever. That’s the way retailing works, whether its clothes, watches or any consumer product. And it’s the same with CDs and DVDs.

“Besides, if prices were all the same, we’d be accused of operating a cartel. I can assure people that HMV are not ripping people off, or Golden Discs. The truth is that, at the moment, retailers all over the world are going to the wall because margins are too tight. There is no rip-off.”


So you see, its all because big bad cdwow buy their cds in *gasp* sweatshop economies...doesn't bother IRMA's members when they sell into those economies though.

And apparently high prices are a good thing, we're just too stupid to realise.

bonkey

Originally posted by therecklessone
And apparently high prices are a good thing, we're just too stupid to realise.

Whats even funnier is that he's claiming that high prices are goof because they encourage competition, whilst complaining that someone has found a way to be competitive at a price-range below where they want to sell....

jc

“They don’t pay VAT. They don’t employ Irish people. They don’t contribute in any way to the Irish economy,” he says. “There is no way that you can legitimately compare them to people like HMV and Golden Discs, good retail operations who have been coming under a lot of unfair criticism from the likes of Joe Duffy on RTE over the past week.”

What a load of nonsense.

Bord Fáilte may as well go to court now to ban people leaving the country:rolleyes:

After all no Irish VAT is spent when booking foreign hotels on line.
Indeed if I buy an airline ticket on travelocity or any other non Irish based travel site because it's cheaper,I'm not paying Vat or contributing with that transaction to the Irish Economy either.

What a load of poop...!

mm

gurramok

They use to and still do blame piracy for lack of sales.
Now the attention is on online retailers, would they ever make up their minds

Guess that €22 music cd is value for money and no rip-off after all

bonkey

Whats really funny is that the recording artists and institutions still get their "per cd" royalties. So its important to remember that IRMA represents "record companies and companies carrying on associated trades in the Republic of Ireland," (taken from IRMA's website, but with my emphasis).

One of their primary stated aims is "Lobbying at industry, political, civil service, Irish Government and EU levels to protect and enhance the interest of member companies." (again, from their website, but with my emphasis).

So lets not be under any misunderstanding about who is looking out for whom here. This is the distribution and retail "bricks and mortar" industry looking after its own - although presumably the record companies have a vested interest as well. All three groups are well represented in IRMA.

I find it somewhat interesting that this is further proof of the joke that "open markets" are. Open so the big companies can sell to more people, at whatever prices they deem fit, sure. But open so that real competition can occur? Not likely.

The extreme price differences have given rise to an entire "secondary" industry like cdwow, who are doing nothing more than capitalising on the actions of others. This is the essence of competition. This is what its supposed to be about.

Is it what we're going to get? Competition, ultimately letting the market find its own balances, and supposedly giving the consumer the best deal?

Once again, we have local industry lobbying for protectionism in the face of competition from abroad and a sinking feeling (at least for me) that the outcome will be protectionist in nature. I'm sure it will be justified in the name of our economy.

jc

sunbeam

Originally posted by therecklessone
From hotpress.com [requires membership]

From what we can gather, they’re sourcing the stuff in sweatshop economies, where salaries may be no more than 10 euro a week. They are buying CDs in countries where product is cheap, and they’re selling it into Europe without paying VAT.

Funnily enough all the CDWOW cds I have to hand have been pressed within the EU. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by sunbeam
Funnily enough all the CDWOW cds I have to hand have been pressed within the EU. :rolleyes:

Indeed and you know how much a pack of ten cdr's will cost you, even in a small retail store, certainly less than €10.

Apply the economies of scale to the mass production of a cd from a popular artist and you can guess how cheaply the cd's that go on sale for €22 here are produced as well as the extent of the rip off that IRMA are trying to protect.

mm

sunbeam

What's the story with Germany? cd-wow.de seems to be redirecting to cd-wow.net, but it looks like a German site is still up and running.

Cork

I think that it is about time we got competition thru out this economy.

Do companies like HMV or Virgin source all their cds from within Ireland?

I think the EU needs to do more to encourage competition thru out the EU and worry less about the shape of bannas.

therecklessone

Originally posted by bonkey
Whats really funny is that the recording artists and institutions still get their "per cd" royalties. So its important to remember that IRMA represents "record companies and companies carrying on associated trades in the Republic of Ireland," (taken from IRMA's website, but with my emphasis).

One of their primary stated aims is "Lobbying at industry, political, civil service, Irish Government and EU levels to protect and enhance the interest of member companies." (again, from their website, but with my emphasis).

Not strictly true Bonkey. Check the members page on the IRMA site, and you will get slightly different blurb. I quote:

IRMA (the Irish Recorded Music Association) is the trade association of the recording industry in Ireland...Only Irish record companies can become members of IRMA.

However, I have been led to believe that IRMA's move has been prompted somewhat by pressure from Irish retailers, angry at a significant drop in turnover due to online sales. IMO, this is also a threat to IRMA's members, because less sales from Irish outlets means less cash per unit sold, if the wholesale price of CDs in Asia remains significantly lower than the price in Europe.

Imposter

But from the artists point of view wouldn't they would be receiving the royalties from Hong Kong's 'IRMA'? If that is the case then the only ones losing out are the irish distributors, retailers and or course IRMA which noone who buys online are going to feel sorry for anyway. And most importantly it's not harming the artists either.

bonkey

No, but its hurting Irish business by making the Irish retailers lose out....

which is why I expect to see the government side with them :

<sarcasm>
God forbid we allow competition which might benefit our consumers at the cost of our businesses.

It just doesn't work like that. I mean, if the businesses all closed, we'd have no jobs for money to buy this cheaper stuff with...
</sarcasm>

jc

Originally posted by bonkey
No, but its hurting Irish business by making the Irish retailers lose out....
which is why I expect to see the government side with them :
jc

I could be wrong on this, but as far as I can remember didn't the Buy Irish campaign here get into trouble when it started as it was a government sponsored campaign against imported goods??

mm

seamus

Originally posted by sunbeam
What's the story with Germany? cd-wow.de seems to be redirecting to cd-wow.net, but it looks like a German site is still up and running.

If the server, and none of it's resources (name servers, database servers) are operating within the EU, then a German order can do nothing more than remove their rights to the .de TLD. The site can still operate in German. Ditto for Ireland. They'll probably lose their .ie rights, but they'll still be operating, and we can still buy from them.

The Irish Government can't/won't direct the ISPs to ban access to certain sites, like China have done.

If you notice, cdwow.net now has a "Choose country" bit at the side. It may make more sense now if cdwow.com, just put in a drop-down, with all it's member sites there, and lose the TLDs from the countries. Save hassle in the future.

ReefBreak

IRMA have put a list of (ahem) CDWow "Facts" on their front page....

CD Wow IS engaged in an illegal activity
They are engaged in copyright and trade mark infringement, illegal under EU laws. The EU has these laws to protect European jobs.
CDWow are importing nothing. The consumer buys from a company in Hong Kong. If it's illegal, then Amazon are also illegal.

They buy products at very low prices in the Far East and thereby ensure huge profits for themselves by shipping into wealthier markets (EU)
Where are CD Cases made? where are blank CDs made? Where was that Action Man toy made that you bought for your son? Buy cheap, sell dear (though not as dear as HMV). Anyway, it called good business.

The price they charge does not include VAT (21%) at a huge cost to the Exchequer
The VAT on CDs is a tiny fraction of the Exchequer revenue.

They contribute nothing to Ireland giving no employment, paying no taxes in Ireland.
Good point, but the price difference is too much for me to actually care. Lower your prices in Ireland and we'll reconsider.

The average VAT on a full price CD is €4.
And?

The average marketing spend by record companies on a chart CD is €3.
Oh well then that's fine, I don't buy your crappy chart CDs.

They carry none of the overheads of regular retail shops: employees, buildings, fixtures & fittings etc.
See Page 1, Paragraph 1 on the "Reasons to Start a Business on the Internet" Manual.

CD Wow is already injuncted in Germany and is being sued in Ireland and the UK
CD Wow knows that they will lose these cases but will continue profiteering up to the last minute.
They've losty nothing yet, and they probably won't.

Remember every CD Wow purchase is a nail in the coffin of an Irish job.
Again, good point, but the price difference is too much for me to actually care. Lower your prices in Ireland and we'll reconsider. Anyway, most employment in retail stores in Ireland is temp., low-wage work.

WHEN CD Wow is shut down, it is not advisable to have your credit card details in cyber space.
Utter bollóx. Credit Card details at CDWow are handled through WorldPay (http://www.worldpay.ie/). They seem to be a reputable organisation, so I'll take my chances thankyouverymuch. And who the hell calls it "Cyber Space" any more?

Cork

Remember every CD Wow purchase is a nail in the coffin of an Irish job.

I hope that CD Wow will continue & I hope Artists will pay the same rates of tax as the rest of us after the budget tomorrow.

This money could be used to pay for hospital , schools and Community Employment Schemes.