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Irish Recorded Music Association sues cdwow

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    #32
    daveirl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,483 ✭✭✭✭daveirl


    This post has been deleted.


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    #33
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Originally posted by ReefBreak
    They are engaged in copyright and trade mark infringement, illegal under EU laws. The EU has these laws to protect European jobs.
    CDWOw are importing nothing. The consumer buys from a company in Hong Kong. If it's illegal, then Amazon are also illegal.

    Not only that, but the EU laws are nothing but protectionism. CDWow should be pressuing their respective government to challenge these laws in the WTO for exactly that reason.

    Still...I guess it just goes further to show that "open markets" means "your markets open to us" from a developed country's perspective.
    They contribute nothing to Ireland giving no employment, paying no taxes in Ireland.
    Good point, but the price difference is too much for me to actually care. Lower your prices in Ireland and we'll reconsider.

    What the contribute is the pressing need for Irish and international business to once more become competitive, and for the multinationals to stop screwing consumers where they feel they can, whilst offering more reasonable prices elsewhere.
    The average VAT on a full price CD is €4.
    And?
    And the Irish government have limits on what an individual can bring into the country without paying VAT. While CDWow ship individual packets below that limit, they are doing nothing wrong, and nor is the consumer.

    The average marketing spend by record companies on a chart CD is €3.
    Oh well then that's fine, I don't buy your crappy chart CDs.
    Even if you did, the record company still got their cut from selling to CDWow or its distributor, so this is irrelevant.

    And who the hell calls it "Cyber Space" any more?
    This was exactly my thoughts too....talk about showing how in touch with the customer an organisation is....

    jc


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    #34
    dahamsta
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    The line about overheads shows them up for what they are: Ignorant, greedy morons. The line about credit card details in "cyberspace" is FUD, something people in the Internet business have been trying to battle for five years or more. If anyone finds out who came up with that little nugget be sure to give them my address, I'd love to have a quiet word in their ear.

    adam


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    #35
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,411 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Originally posted by Imposter
    But from the artists point of view wouldn't they would be receiving the royalties from Hong Kong's 'IRMA'? If that is the case then the only ones losing out are the irish distributors, retailers and or course IRMA which noone who buys online are going to feel sorry for anyway. And most importantly it's not harming the artists either.
    But artists get a percentage of sales. In the far east they might expect 10% of €3, (€0.30) but in Ireland 10% of €20 (€2.00). CDWOW can fudge this by claiming Irish sales actually went elsewhere.
    Originally posted by bonkey
    Even if you did, the record company still got their cut from selling to CDWow or its distributor, so this is irrelevant.
    Much the same point, CDWOW are profiting from the grey market, which is illegal.


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    #36
    Imposter
    Registered Users Posts: 4,666 ✭✭✭Imposter


    If IRMA gets their way with CDWOW will it mean that amazon and play are also illegal? If so how can amazon sell books?

    Surely by targeting just CDWOW, IRMA and their counterparts in UK and Germany are just giving online companies more publicity as I can't see how Amazon and Play could be illegal seeing as they operate from inside the EU (I'm assuming amazon is registered as a company in the EU)!


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    #37
    nellieswellies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 239 ✭✭nellieswellies


    Do the IRMA not realise that activity such as this only feeds the will of people to go online in search of shared mp3's. I have to say this ones a bit Irish.


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    #38
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,803 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Originally posted by Victor
    But artists get a percentage of sales. In the far east they might expect 10% of €3, (€0.30) but in Ireland 10% of €20 (€2.00).
    Are you sure? I was under the impression that artist royalties were on a fixed-return-per-disc basis.


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    #39
    drane2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭drane2


    How would people feel about distributing flyers outside HMV/Tower/whatever that show the difference in price between CDWOW and HMV/Tower/whatever?


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    #40
    ReefBreak
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭ReefBreak


    Originally posted by drane2
    How would people feel about distributing flyers outside HMV/Tower/whatever that show the difference in price between CDWOW and HMV/Tower/whatever?
    Personally I don't think it would serve any useful purpose.


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    #41
    drane2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 241 ✭✭drane2


    Well, it would get alot of bad press for IRMA and it would tie in nicely with what Mary Harney was saying about shopping around.


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    #42
    bonkey
    Registered Users Posts: 15,443 ✭✭✭✭bonkey


    Originally posted by Victor
    Much the same point, CDWOW are profiting from the grey market, which is illegal.

    I'm completely open to correction on this one, but I thought the grey market involved illegally avoiding paying VAT / duties etc. ???

    There is nothing illegal in a company in Hong Kong shipping me a product I purchase from them. There is nothing illegal in me receiving goods from outside the EU in the post, without paying VAT/duty as long as the value of the item is below a set limit.

    Unless I'm mistaken, CD-Wow do not import in bulk into Europe and redistribute from there.

    So I'm at a loss to see where the crime is. I'm not saying its not there, I'm just saying that I can't understand what it is.

    This seems to me to be more of a case of something which is perfectly legal, but which was never intended by the lawmakers / protectionists to be a largescale business model. Now that the hinternet is allowing it to become one, they want to make it illegal.

    From how I interpret it, the relevant laws were not considered from a "sell in country a to a purchaser in country b" perspective.

    Indeed, the logistics of that were one of the biggest headaches when the whole e-commerce market started up, as different nations took differing stances on who was liable for VAT - the nation of the purchaser or of the retailer. Different nations imposed different solutions, but they most certainly did so with the intention to facilitate international commerce.

    The current round of litigation would appear to be a request by big business for a complete about face, as they've realised that the laws don't just affect how they can sell stuff, but also how we can buy it.

    As a matter of curiosity, wouldn't this new protectionist stance also make purchasing anything from any non-EU-based site illegal?

    jc


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    #43
    nellieswellies
    Closed Accounts Posts: 239 ✭✭nellieswellies


    How would people feel about distributing flyers outside HMV/Tower/whatever that show the difference in price between CDWOW and HMV/Tower/whatever?


    I would be hesitant to protwest Tower seeing as they are the only large record outlet in dublin willing to give unsigned artists in store exposure and regularly go out of their way with regards to product placvement to ensure that the small unsigned artist gets as much support as possible.


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    #44
    Kali
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,601 ✭✭✭Kali


    I love the fact that IRMAs site isn't even hosted in Ireland, therefore the exchequer is losing out and Irish jobs are at risk.


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    #45
    projectmayhem
    Registered Users Posts: 9,480 ✭✭✭projectmayhem


    IRMA has no case against CDwow because CDWOW is an online company and the same rules don't apply. Importing or otherwise.


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    #46
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Originally posted by drane2
    Well, it would get alot of bad press for IRMA and it would tie in nicely with what Mary Harney was saying about shopping around.
    Which is also part of the problem. IRMA don't have to worry about bad press. The artists they represent will still sell music, no matter what. It's a very small amount of people who stop buying someone's music over disagreement with what the person has done - look at Metallica for a perfect example.
    Most people will not associate IRMA with shops. IRMA is essentially a face that HMV, Golden Discs, et al, can use for this action, and even try play the hard done by card, without suffering any of the flack.

    The best that can be done is for the music fans to tell IRMA to stop it. But of course, they'll be more interested in listening to the retailers...


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    #47
    mike65
    Closed Accounts Posts: 88,978 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    4. Consignments of Negligible Value
    Consignments not exceeding a value of 22 may be imported from
    outside the EU without payment of import charges. However, this relief
    does not apply to importations of tobacco, tobacco products, alcoholic
    products, undenatured perfumes or toilet waters

    http://66.102.11.104/search?q=cache:WCk3CPZMeT4J:www.revenue.ie/pdf/pn1882.pdf+excise+on+imported+goods+eu&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

    or from www.revenue.ie/pdf/pn1882.pdf

    Mike.


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    #48
    dahamsta
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 16,659 ✭✭✭✭dahamsta


    Originally posted by seamus
    The best that can be done is for the music fans to tell IRMA to stop it. But of course, they'll be more interested in listening to the retailers...
    It would be nice if the artists kicked up a fuss too, but many of them are completely ignorant on technical issues. Some of them are perfectly intelligent people but as soon as you mention the word "internet" their knickers immediately knot themselves into a little ball. It can be very frustrating.

    Of course, as Seamus suggests, the action is being brought via IRMA because they really have nothing to lose. If everything goes pear-shaped they can just wind it up and start another association with a pretty acronym. Obviously that's why everything in the US is happening via the RIAA (and MPAA). The labels are too chickenshít to do it themselves.

    adam


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