Ah to be British

johnKarma

Originally posted by rcunning03
correct me if im wrong but did the french (normans) not basically create britain

Nah, that was continental drift

Capt'n Midnight

Originally posted by rcunning03
correct me if im wrong but did the french (normans) not basically create britain

Yes, but they were Scandanavian. Worth mentioning that Sicily was also one of their strongholds too.

This means that the Knights of the Round Table etc. and all those people were of course pushed westwards. So if anyone claims to be desended from, related to or empathy for King Authur etc. - they are Welsh.

Highnoon

My, my that was an interesting read. the art of conversation (or posting) eh? Well to round it up I just thought I let you all know that much as I expected Empire Magazine never did reply to my email. They probably filed it away under 'Miscellaneous'. Maybe I should send them the link to this chat.

growler

originally posted by sovtek "UK Immigration officials don't seem to know that there is a difference either. I've been asked many times what I'm going to do once my work permit expires, something that Irish immigration doesn't ask."

weird, i've been going back and forth for years and have never been stopped or even asked for a passport in recent years, like 5 ish.

RE original post:
I've even been asked by a well educated young english lass "why are there IRA bombs going off when we were all the same country?" !! strange that you could miss the whole point of that issue growing up in England in the 70's and 80's.

Although she been very well educated in the subject subsequently, as she herself said they never covered irish history or politics ( guess it is a small , violent, chapter in the history of such a mighty empire) in school and so assumed that we were all the British Isles.

In fairness, I never learnt a thing about English history other than how it affected us in Ireland in school. For us it was the raison d'etre of many Irish to be not english, the english, for obvious reasons, (bar cromwell) never had such a bee in their bonnet about us.

BarryFry

The interesting thing about English history is that in many ways it is as miserable as Ireland's.

I don't think many people appreciate the scale of the slaughter that William the Conqueror undertook - hundreds of thousands were killed out of a fairly small population. And the Saxons had EVERY acre of land taken off them. Even Cromwell left the Irish with about 20% of their land.

Then you had two outbreaks of bubonic plague, the first of which killed 60% of the population, and two vast civil wars, the first of which (the War of the Roses) led to an estimated million deaths.......

And inbetween these you had a generally poor level of nutrition and low life expectancies even into the early twentieth century.

Just in time for the Somme, Ypres etc...

And yet, none of this seems to have had any long-term psychological effect on the English whatsoever...

sovtek

Originally posted by growler
originally posted by sovtek "UK Immigration officials don't seem to know that there is a difference either. I've been asked many times what I'm going to do once my work permit expires, something that Irish immigration doesn't ask."

What passport do you hold? If you enter Ireland via the UK you have to show a passport unless you go through the EU line.
I hold a US passport and until recently a Irish work permit (now EU spouse visa).

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by gurramok
BTW, is Irish history taught in English/British schools much, like a mention in textbooks ?

Nope.Nada.Nothing - There is nothing taught about Irish/British history in uk schools which may explain a lot of the problems in comprehesion. Add the 'weather map effect' (which btw Sky deserve some plaudits for since they have always shown both islands in full) and its really no surprise that people from that island to the east dont have a clue.

If you are lucky they might be able to make some inferences from the brief mention of cromwells rampages - but dont count on it.

RuggieBear

I know it is now slightly off topic, but i remember, last chistmas going into a bank in Las Vegas, Nevada to try and exchange some canadian dollars for the american equivalent....the teller saw the canadian dollars and asked me if i was from "Canadia".....

rcunning03

I don't think many people appreciate the scale of the slaughter that William the Conqueror undertook - hundreds of thousands were killed out of a fairly small population. And the Saxons had EVERY acre of land taken off them. Even Cromwell left the Irish with about 20% of their land.

did irish tribes not control scotland eons ago ?

also i think the reason why were not as united as the brits is because the normans only took the main viking towns, and left the native tribes in the mountains (in Ireland) etc, whereas in britain the normans took everything

to see what type of information they are getting about us in school check out this link

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cgi-bin/search/results.pl?q=bbcmeta%3Asoslevel%3AALevel%2Bbbcmeta%3Asossubject%3AHistory+&q=ireland&scope=sosteachertest&go.x=30&go.y=12

Capt'n Midnight

IIRC the "Irish" Kingdom in Scotland was called Dal Riada (SP)

spanner

it is really strange that our neighbour knows so little about us and the difference between the north and the south. i was in a similar situation with a girl who was training to become a primary teacher in england and she asked me"is ireland not part of britain?" i thought at first she was trying to wind me up but she was serious. i was in the states at the time working with this irish american man in a summer camp full of english and these "misunderstandings" often occured, he would get more mad than me.

i guess you all read the thing samuel jackson said when a uk journalist called colin farrell english,,,
what a guy!!! samuel jackson is more of a legend than he already was if thats possible

bonkey

Originally posted by rcunning03
did irish tribes not control scotland eons ago ?

Yes and no.

Some of the Celts in Ireland moved to Scotland, wresting control from the previously-established Picts.

The Celts themselves, however, didn't start in Ireland either. Their tribes are traceable back to Eastern Europe.

jc

BarryFry

By "moved" and "wresting control" I presume you mean "invaded" and "comitting genocide", which is actually what the Irish did to the Picts.

An event in history that the Irish themselves aren't keen to remember.

Ironically, it is the descendents of these invaders that make up the majority of the Protestant settlers in the North.

sceptre

Originally posted by rcunning03
did irish tribes not control scotland eons ago ?

Invaded, took over the west and settled if that's what you mean.

Elmo

The English (Cause The Scottish and welsh no better) always do this.

The English even when and stole most of the words in the english language from other countries.

.Sorry if I am not constructive in this form but I only read the first and last posts

sceptre

Ah yes, the Welsh. A warlike people. If they can't kill you with arrows they'll sing up and down the dales and make you wish you'd left them alone. Or been part of the Celtic tribes that moved to the other island.

I love Wales
(actually I do - it's like the good part of Kerry only bigger & filled with nice types (like the good part of Kerry). And all their Qs are Ps (scholars of Welsh and Irish will know what I'm talking about))

(Picts would probably have invaded wherever they could if they'd figured out how to make bigger boats that didn't sink)

Exit

While I think it's pretty inexcusable for British people not to have some knowledge of the situation in Ireland, it is understandable for other people (like Americans) to not know anything. We know about American history, geography, politics etc because we hear and see it everywhere. But why would the average American know anything about Ireland. Ireland to them is like Bangladesh to us. Just some far off place that we rarely hear about. And honestly, how many people here know much about Bangladesh's history, geography or politics? Or most other countries for that matter? That's something you have to factor in. Yes, it can be very annoying when stuff like this happens, but we'd be guilty of it too if the shoe was on the other foot.

A couple of Americans I've talked to even thought Ireland was some horrid war country! Basically because all they knew about the Island was news of bombs and peace treaties :rolleyes:


But then again have you ever seen the Dirty Sanchez probes where Daintan or someone is talking about how anti-english pritchard is and how whenever anyone asks him is he brittish he says that he's Welsh...even went as far as to say that he spits on the english border sign...Most Irish people would describe wales as being in 'england'.

rcunning03

While I think it's pretty inexcusable for British people not to have some knowledge of the situation in Ireland, it is understandable for other people (like Americans) to not know anything. We know about American history, geography, politics etc because we hear and see it everywhere.

try this for the next week just watch bbc1,2,utv and ch4 dont listen to irish radio(just play cd's) dont buy any irish papers (incl irish sun etc) just buy guardian telegraph etc it will be like the republic doesnt exist. Then after the week see what you have missed

They dont have the access to our media that we do to theirs, even living in the north you can completlely ignore the republic if you want

simu

Most Irish people would describe wales as being in 'england'.

No one with a half-way decent education, I'd *hope*.

rcunning03

most people say english when they mean british, and generally refer to the uk as england same way as we call people from the usa Americans

you know what I meant. They'd know that Wales isn't in England but yet if asked "where is Wales" they'd say "England". Know what I mean?

dubhthach

I also love the way in several history books "The Isles" for example that stuff like war of independence is either described as a "civil war" or a campaign by terriosts against the forces of law and order. :rolleyes:

regarding maps and europe disapearing, just look in say any english magazine that has list of i don't know Linux User Groups (LUG's i'm just picked this out of my head) they got to show Ireland in the map for british ones, even though they don't list any irish ones, which is kinda silly.

rcunning03

Even more disturbing than an english person asking are we not british a relatively intelligent friend of mine (female) asked where we not part of the uk. I had a few drinks on me at the time so i rationally explained without abuse that we are not part of the uk

bonkey

Originally posted by rcunning03
most people say ...

I'm assuming that this is nothing but pure baseless opinion. You don't have anything more solid than observation to go on perchance?

Personally, I know almost no-one who fails to make the distinction between England and either the UK or Britain, and when they do they typically correct themselves immediately.

jc

rcunning03

Personally, I know almost no-one who fails to make the distinction between England and either the UK or Britain, and when they do they typically correct themselves immediately.

of course they know the difference what i was saying is that most people use england as a generic term for the uk or britain e.g. i was watching the english news last night whereas I should of said i was watching the british news last night

If you read any of my previous posts i never once said england or english when i meant britain british or uk

Elmo

I have to say I am one of those people that usually refer to Britian as England.

I suppose it is because England rule the rest of Britian.


I know my aunt (she is welsh) hates the way Irish people refering to Britian as England.

Of course the Irish for Walse is Briatan Beag. Little Britian.


Britian = England, Scotland And Walse
The UK = Britian and Northern Ireland.

I had a few drinks on me at the time so i rationally explained without abuse that we are not part of the uk

Oh she is very luckly she didn't met me. I hope she is goodlooking.

a relatively intelligent friend of mine (female) asked where we not part of the uk.

Was she Irish!!!!:( If she is Irish and asking that question she is not anywhere near relatively intelligent.

Anyway when the British talked about the empire they were refering to the English Empire, Like the scotish, irish and welsh should have an empire. Haaaa Haaa Huuuu haaa. (evil english laughter)

secret_squirrel

Originally posted by Elmo
Anyway when the British talked about the empire they were refering to the English Empire

And you base this statement on what exactly? Without the Scots, Irish, and Welsh helping there would have been no British Empire - it was exactly that an Empire created by the Peoples of the British Isles. It may have been ruled from London, but it couldnt have existed without the help of large numbers of Scots, Irish and Welsh.

bonkey

Originally posted by rcunning03
of course they know the difference what i was saying is that most people use england as a generic term for the uk or britain e.g. i was watching the english news last night whereas I should of said i was watching the british news last night

Well, seeing as the television channel you were watching was most likely produced in England, either would be entirely correct. Indeed, if you were watching the Beeb, then you'd definitely be watching English news unless it was BBC Northern Ireland, BBC Wales, or BBC Scotland which you were watching

If you read any of my previous posts i never once said england or english when i meant britain british or uk

And if you read my single post, you'd have noticed I was questioning your use of the word most, rather than what you were saying they did.

Which would be why I only quoted the three words I was interested in, and left out the entire point you seem to think I was replying to.

jc

rcunning03

Well, seeing as the television channel you were watching was most likely produced in England, either would be entirely correct. Indeed, if you were watching the Beeb, then you'd definitely be watching English news unless it was BBC Northern Ireland, BBC Wales, or BBC Scotland which you were watching

The news at 10 o'clock is the national (UK) news after the national news, they have regional news BBC 1 London, Northern Ireland, wales etc. The reason why so much of the national (UK) news is english based is because the majority population of the uk is english and it's probably the same reason why most or some (lets just say a percantage of the population) say england when they mean uk or britain

Was she Irish!!!! If she is Irish and asking that question she is not anywhere near relatively intelligent.

Incredibly yes, the brits have an excuse and i have to say i was quite shocked when she said this. She was relatively intelligent but not in a traditional way