Ah to be British

ruchna

Victor

Actually the UK isn't a **foreign** country under the treaty / Government of Ireland Act 1921.

Agreed, the notion that Ireland is a self-sufficient entity cut off from the rest of the world is a false construct - seeing our sister island as alien/foreign is ludicious in this day and age. Part of the UK is culturally Irish (their Union Jack represents All-Ireland with its Cross of St. Patrick) and more Irish people live in UK than Republic - and we don't require a passport to enter the UK. Therefore Ireland shares in the life of the whole British Isles and that beyond the British Isles we all relate most closely to America. Ireland is not, and cannot be, a free-standing cultural entity. To cut ourselves off from it would be to perform a cultural amputation. This amputation is what narrow Irish separatism has inflicted on Ireland, the promotion of one-dimensional Irishness based on Gaelic racial purity and supremacy. I’m now ashamed of my former nationalist mentality, once entrenched with anti-British prejudice, which excluded anything and everything associated with our sister island.

The curse of Irish separatism has fostered selective cultural and historical amnesia, such as allowing whole swathes of Irish men and women to be airbrushed out of history if their faces didn't fit with anti-Britishness. These include Irish people who fought on the British side in the world wars, and a mistaken belief that only Catholics suffered in the nineteenth century famines.

True reconciliation within these islands can be achieved only when the Republic of Ireland accepts that it is closely linked to the United Kingdom socially, culturally and economically. Ah its great to be living in the heterogenius and multi-cultural British Isles.

Commonwealth AFAIK.

What does AFAIK mean?

Victor

Originally posted by ruchna
These include Irish people who fought on the British side in the world wars, and a mistaken belief that only Catholics suffered in the nineteenth century famines.

To a degree, catholics died, protestants emigrated.

Originally posted by ruchna
What does AFAIK mean?

"As far as I know".

gurramok

I also suspect that this is another version of the myth that the Irish speak English better than the English do.

Dunno about that, but the Dutch must be the best speakers of English.
They even know more of thoses big complicted words than we do

This amputation is what narrow Irish separatism has inflicted on Ireland, the promotion of one-dimensional Irishness based on Gaelic racial purity and supremacy

We are separate because we are a differerent race by and large than the english race, that goes for any other race (pre-multi-cultural ireland that is when nations were formed)

Therefore Ireland shares in the life of the whole British Isles and that beyond the British Isles we all relate most closely to America. Ireland is not, and cannot be, a free-standing cultural entity

British Isles, there is no Ireland in the British Isles as you put it ?
Free-standing cultural entity, that we are along with the English, Welsh , Scottish, French...etc

How do we relate to America, is it the Irish-American thing or is the McDonalds culture?

ruchna

We are separate because we are a differerent race by and large than the english race, that goes for any other race (pre-multi-cultural ireland that is when nations were formed)

Obsession with the notion of race, implying a sense of chauvinism and supremacy, are the preserve of fascists- Hitler's assertion of a supreme Aryan race in Germany. The Irish race is non-existent in my view, not even nationalists believe this. Instead, there is a strong argument for a distinct Irish-Gaelic ethnicity, which is the whole basis of the existence of the Free State. Irishness can be either regarded in terms of culture or ethnicity or both - Unionists in the North are culturally Irish but do not accept the one-dimensional Irish ethnicity based solely on Gaelicism.

In a wider context (nationalism=narrowness), the peoples of the British-Irish Isles are hybrids - or a cruder term, mongrels - a rich pool of ethnicities and tribes. Ulster-Scots culture and their Ullan language is still spoken today in parts of East Donegal in addition to Norn Iron and we have the Anglo-Irish and Anglo-Norman legacy.

I am happy to be a mongrel. As for mongrel dogs, those of us who have spent our lives in the company of thoroughbreds and mongrels know that, on most counts, mutts are the best. They are healthier, brighter, easier to train, loving and great fun to be with. Of course, all dogs were cross-bred at one time or other. No cross-breeding, no mongrels, no King Charles spaniels. The same holds for plants and flowers. The finely scented roses so loved by the British are floral mongrels bred into a new form of earthly delight. Britain's successes - cultural, technical and architectural - have often been a result of cross-breeding. Whichever way you turn. What is, say, the most British car of all? The most stylish Aston-Martins, the DB4 and James Bond DB5 were a fusion of British engineering and Italian styling (coachwork by Touring of Milan).

As with cars and locomotives, so with architecture, fashion and music. British medieval cathedrals, at their best, are inspired fusions, artistic junction boxes through which flow the ideas of Normans and locals. Later on, the British stirred decorative designs drawn from the architectural recipe books of Renaissance Italy into our Tudor palaces and country houses. The Palladian movement, led by Lord Burlington, was a cross-breeding of the peerless Tuscan farmhouse and Venetian church architecture of Andrea Palladio with English, Scottish and Anglo-Irish sensibilities.

As for St Paul's Cathedral, it's a resourceful cross-breed between Gothic planning and Baroque design, a brilliant compromise. They must surely hear and taste as well as see the success of cross-breeding through the centuries in Britain. Listen to how Handel, a German, influenced British music when he came to live and compose in London. See how successful Jimi Hendrix became when, through the agency of Chas Chandler, his Geordie manager, he fused American blues with British pop. Eat chicken tikka masala, spaghetti bolognese (as we know it), King Edward potatoes, Jersey tomatoes or Cadbury's chocolate (all American in origin) tucked up in your pyjamas safe inside your bungalow (Anglo-Indian slumberwear and home), and you're snuggled quite happily in a mongrel culture.

At one time, in the distant past, we were all from somewhere else. When we belonged to groups more properly labeled tribes than nationalities, we roamed our sections of earth looking for places to settle. We had strong and limited social identities then, and we tended, out of a sense of survival, to be suspicious of strange groups and social practices. Where are all those groups we once were now? Where are all of the tribes that migrated into central Europe and lost their identities to the greater whole? And of those we know of now, thanks to archaeologists, how many still demand allegiance from their progeny? As millennial time passes, we forget. Assimilation is the norm. In the very long run, Irish and British ethnic identities is a passing fad. Today, our survival sense should be telling us that we had better start forgetting our social differences and begin to get along.

mike65

Amen to the above...see Mongrel Nation on Discovery for more details...:)

Mike.

krattapopov

The curse of Irish separatism has fostered selective cultural and historical amnesia, such as allowing whole swathes of Irish men and women to be airbrushed out of history if their faces didn't fit with anti-Britishness. These include Irish people who fought on the British side in the world wars, and a mistaken belief that only Catholics suffered in the nineteenth century famines.

firstly, any irish man that fought in a world war under the banner of england was fighting not for british empire but for the greater good....

of course it wasnt only catholics that suffered in the famines.. any person that was deprived of food by the british empire suffered, BUT the majority was catholic


on a lighter note and im not sure if this was brought up already in this thread.. but did anyone see the interview with samuel l jackson and the british one when he was promoting swat? basically she was asking him about colin farrell and she claimed him as british but mr. jackson set her straight, that he was irish and he even compared the way black people where treated in america to a similar way the irish are treated by the brits.... samuel l jackson ruled that interview

Davey Devil

I was looking at www.coldplay.com and under their tour history have the point gigs in the UK section not the Europe section. This really pisses me off.

Victor

Originally posted by ruchna
Obsession with the notion of race, implying a sense of chauvinism and supremacy, are the preserve of fascists- Hitler's assertion of a supreme Aryan race in Germany.

Fascism and Hitler's (or any other) racism and supremacy arguments aren't identical.

Zaphod B

Originally posted by Davey Devil
I was looking at www.coldplay.com and under their tour history have the point gigs in the UK section not the Europe section. This really pisses me off.

Damn, you uncovered the evil British plan to take over the Republic using armies of vapid, tedious pop bands. Back to the drawing board...

Originally posted by mike65
Amen to the above...see Mongrel Nation on Discovery for more details...:)

Mike.

I only started watching that because Eddie Izzard was presenting but it's brilliant. It's not a popular point of view to hold but I think 'patriot' is a synonym of 'moron'. Especially when I hear people demanding that immigrants conform to 'Our way of life...'.

ykt0di9url7bc3

Originally posted by Capt'n Midnight
Just to get back on topic(ish)

The language Shakespere spoke is closer to what we speak than to what is spoken today in Avon or other parts of England.

true for a number of reasons,

how long has english been spoken in the UK? Its scary when you travel 30 miles in any direction in england and come across a completely new accent (not counting major cities), cultural circles of language have been developing far longer in england than any other english speaking country, population migration & greater informational exchange from televison & radio slows this...but our accent developement is not as advanced (not counting cork city )

saying that our developement of english is closer to Shakespere shows how much the language in certain parts of england have progressed.

but the Dutch must be the best speakers of English.

There are several varieties of Low Saxon in the Netherlands, some of which are related to the oldest speaking forms of english

dubhthach

the closest language to english technically is actually frisian

dubhthach

Originally posted by ruchna
and more Irish people live in UK than Republic - and we don't require a passport to enter the UK.

given that only a million irish born people live outside the country (or so the IRISH TIMES last week led me to believe) and the population of the north is about 1.6million
a grand total of 2.6million does not equal more then 4million (which is now officialy the current population of republic - hence article in paper)
more so alot of this 1million figure that live outside the country would live in parts other then the UK
your point would have been valid maybe 30 years ago but it ain't anymore. Though i will agree there are more "Irish citzens" living outside the country however most of these weren't born in ireland. the grandparent rule is a great thing.

As regarding culture connections, yea we got them so what, belguim was part of netherlands for centuries, likewise norway was part of denmark, i don't hear you calling for their reunification now do i?

Matt Simis

Well, Im also nitpicking (like the Coldplay thing), but today PayPal let me know that they are "launching PayPal UK to service Europe", which is operating "through our new European Customer Service Centre in Dublin." They have some grounds to call it PayPal UK as it is infact "incorporated" in the UK and registered with the UK's Financial Services Authority. I presume we dont have an equivilent here?

They use the terms PayPal UK and PayPal Europe interchangably and more confusingly their PayPal Jobs page states: "PayPal Jobs in Dublin, Ireland
Join the online payments revolution! We're looking for talented professionals to work in our Berlin, Germany office."

I have a feeling they are not totally sure what and where Europe is.


Matt

Victor

Originally posted by SearrarD
but our accent developement is not as advanced (not counting cork city )

Not just the city, I couldn't understand a conversation in a Carrigaline pub the other day - and it was only 5pm.

Originally posted by Matt Simis
Well, Im also nitpicking (like the Coldplay thing), but today PayPal let me know that they are "launching PayPal UK to service Europe", which is operating "through our new European Customer Service Centre in Dublin." They have some grounds to call it PayPal UK as it is infact "incorporated" in the UK and registered with the UK's Financial Services Authority. I presume we dont have an equivilent here?

The Irish Financial Services Regulatory Authority (IFRSA) and the Central Bank.

Originally posted by Matt Simis
They use the terms PayPal UK and PayPal Europe interchangably and more confusingly their PayPal Jobs page states: "PayPal Jobs in Dublin, Ireland
Join the online payments revolution! We're looking for talented professionals to work in our Berlin, Germany office." I have a feeling they are not totally sure what and where Europe is.

They are working on the basis of "Boise, Idaho" and "San Jose, California". Naff and not very bright, but factual.

dego

Back to the UK, Ireland thing this post started as. I grew up in South Philly. I never equated the Irish and English as being the same people. Mind you I have friends who til this day would put a good “dunny brook?” on me if I did that. I think people that have never been exposed to the rich and wonderful culture of Irish are ignorant. I don’t mean ignorant in a bad way, they simply don’t know.

Dego

rcunning03

He can read a Dublin daily newspaper and watch RTE.

cant watch rte unless they are right on the border and dublin newspapers cost a lot more than the guardian etc

Actually the UK isn't a **foreign** country under the treaty / Government of Ireland Act 1921.

can you explain that please ?

The way i see it all our plants, wildlife, rock formations etc are basically the same and the only major difference between the people is which christian religion they choose

i would be for reunification with the uk if the brits stopped acting like america's favourite puppy dog, they joined the euro and legalised soft drugs otherwise i'd have to say no thanks

Tazzle

And sure aren't we all the same except for our differences rcunning03, heres to the unification of Israel and Palestine. :rolleyes:

rcunning03

And sure aren't we all the same except for our differences rcunning03, heres to the unification of Israel and Palestine.

yeah ok fair point but mostly the difference between people just seems to be religious beliefs (in n.ireland israel etc)

Victor

Originally posted by rcunning03
can you explain that please ?

Basicly, while we gained independence, the citizens of the two countries would not be treated as foreigners. Hence the (generally) preferential treatment of each others citizens by government.

rcunning03

of course thats probably why we never needed a visa to live there and i think we can vote over there as well

Matt Simis

Originally posted by rcunning03
yeah ok fair point but mostly the difference between people just seems to be religious beliefs (in n.ireland israel etc)

Thats a gross over simplification. I once saw a documentary that took Protestants from just South of the Border and Catholics from just North and brought them to the opposite sides to "meet and greet" those of the same Religion in the different countries. Quite obviously the ROI Protestents (who believed they felt an affinity to the UK, ie these weren't "republican Protestants"), felt little connection to their NI equivalents and the NI Catholics weren't as connected to the ROI variants as they expected.

The point being that people in the North, no matter their religion share more in common with each other than those on other parts of the Island that only share their religious view.



Matt

rcunning03

The point being that people in the North, no matter their religion share more in common with each other than those on other parts of the Island that only share their religious view.

exactly, they grew up in the same country which would produce a slightly different mindset to the republic (just like comparing dutch-belgians to the dutch) due to the different culture etc., but in the north itself what divides people is religion. I know that a lot of catholics probably would'nt want to leave the uk and a lot of protestants might not be opposed to a united ireland, but generally (or so we're told) catholics are republicans and protestants are unionist.

the point i was trying to make earlier and it probably is over simplistic is that the islands look the same, have the same wildlife etc, the people basically look the same
the major difference between us is that britain decided to become protestant and we wanted to stay catholic, its not just in ireland that catholics were oppresed it's just that in britain they did a better job of it.

the normans completely conquered the saxons in england but in ireland the anglo-normans only conquered the major viking towns and left the rest of the country alone which also caused divisions in ireland (the dublin/rural divide still exists today)

there are differences between north and south and if you exclude the major one i.e. they want to be in the uk and we dont there is really not that much more difference between us as there is between england and scotland. I'm not saying the differences are insignificant or very little in fact there is a lot of diiference between scotland, england and wales but there are also a lot of similarities betwen them, similarities that we also share

Matt Simis

Of course there are bound to be similarities between countries so close together, but one could argue that the French and the English have some similarites also.

Wildlife and geography is not "the same" in Ireland and Britain btw, they have snakes and other lizards we dont, Scotland has eagles, Ireland has unique snails.. Im sure the list goes on.

What do you mean by: "not that much more difference between us as there is between england and scotland"?? Wildlife (despite what you say), History, Political alignment and influence on the world stage are quite different between ROI and the UK.
You stated you "would be for reunification with the uk if the brits stopped acting like america's favourite puppy dog, they joined the euro.."

It seems that if they did that, they would be more inline with the rest of Europe and we would all be on the way towards tighter European integration... what would be the point of "uniting" two states within a larger union? :rolleyes:



Matt

rcunning03

Wildlife and geography is not "the same" in Ireland and Britain btw, they have snakes and other lizards we dont, Scotland has eagles, Ireland has unique snails.. Im sure the list goes on.

i should of said basically the same with a few differences

What do you mean by: "not that much more difference between us as there is between england and scotland"??

I was refering to the north and if you exclude the major difference between north and south, we still have a lot of differences (as you would between two different countries) but were not that much more different to northern ireland, in the same way scotland has differences to england but also a lot of similarities.

History, Political alignment and influence on the world stage are quite different between ROI and the UK.

since 1922 yes but before that, even back to pre-history we both had similar beliefs and knowledge about the solar system stone henge and newgrange are different but they do a similar type of job.

they would be more inline with the rest of Europe and we would all be on the way towards tighter European integration... what would be the point of "uniting" two states within a larger union?

Britain would be more inline with europe, but would get rid of the corruption and the plain stupidity that decides chickenwire is a suitable barrier on a motorway, and the logic that gives us roadsigns that give directrions to points on the compass as opposed to places e.g. M50 northbound instead of coolock, howth etc.

Don't get me wrong i would much rather a strong federal europe, (with decent healthcare, proper roads, people eating real food instead of the crap that was product placed in the latest episode of friends) but i cant see it happening, whereas the brits could decide to stop bending over to america's every whim, accept their future in europe and adopt the euro and also finally decide that government has no place telling people what they can and cant do with their bodies.

A more european style country could be possible in the uk, but to get it in ireland with it's low corporation tax, low public spending, complete inability to do any sort of infrastructure quickly and constant government propaganda about how were all dirty polluting, irresponbile speeding drivers, who let their children have unmonitored access to the dangerous world of the internet caused we're too busy binge drinking and not washing our hands after we goto the toilet, to change ireland into a more relaxed european style country would need a revolution.

sorry for ranting and in no way is it aimed at yourself, i do love irish peole and its scenery but i hate official ireland and basically all im trying to say is we have our differences with the uk but also a lot of similarities, we all watch the same programes usually on the same channels, we like the same sports and have our own ones as well and i want a more european style country and if britain were to make a few changes they would be more european. Whereas as ireland might like to give the impression were european but public spending and the fact that we let preborn infants die in an ambulance cause we dont want to pay for a maternity ward or god forbid cut the tax breaks to american companies, proves we're not

ruchna

Originally posted by rcunning03

but mostly the difference between people just seems to be religious beliefs (in n.ireland israel etc)

Not only that but a variation in identity and allegiance. Whether one labels the division as ethnic or tribal, enough evidence of historic difference remains to make it fundamental. Catholic and Protestant can still be identified by surname, even though there is considerable overlap. This allows each community to identify with a different history, which in each cases portrays the other as a traditional foe.

Even without a language barrier, these deeply held self-perceptions have been maintained within Northern Ireland under the influence of strong institutions. Each community has its own church, or churches, its own schools, newspapers, and, to some extent, sporting and cultural organisations. The teaching of Irish in many Catholic schools has, it is true, not succeeded in reviving the language as a means of everyday communication, but it does act as a powerful confirmation of belief in the one-time existence of a distinct Irish cultural world, one that has, in a sense, been restored in the form of an, albeit English speaking, Irish Republic.

The situation that has emerged is one which makes it practically impossible for any current Belfast-based government to build a common regional allegiance, just as it was impossible for the old Stormont regime. The networks of institutions that help maintain the sense of identity in each community have been too powerful. It is this inability to find common ground for identity and allegiance between unionist and nationalist that is the core of the problem, not the treatment of one community by the other, nor the comparative disadvantage of one versus the other.

ruchna

i would much rather a strong federal europe, (with decent healthcare, proper roads, people eating real food instead of the crap that was product placed in the latest episode of friends) but i cant see it happening, whereas the brits could decide to stop bending over to america's every whim, accept their future in europe and adopt the euro and also finally decide that government has no place telling people what they can and cant do with their bodies.

Have you seen the Irish Unionist Alliance website? Irish Unionist Alliance says Europe is the wrong Union to be in

They have suggested that the English speaking nations of the British Isles to join North Atlantic Free Trade Area (NAFTA) plus its Commonwealth as opposed to further integration in a European Union. This would disrupt the EU to Create a North Atlantic Community. It is no secret that the majority of Britons (and some Irish) are very unhappy with Europe. They don't want to have to use metric measures. They don't want to be told that their beef, their sausage, their this, their that aren't good enough, but have to change to conform to the diktats of bureaucrats in Brussels. They are tired of a blatant prejudice against the English language in the inner sanctums of the European Union. They don't want to give up the pound sterling for a new, artificial currency, the "Euro", that sounds like a medical disorder. And they sure as hell don't want to be shunted aside by a Franco-German "axis" (where have we heard the word "Axis" before?) that will decide Britain's fate without significant input from Britain's own polity.

But the numbers are against you. The U.K. is 58 million people; the EU is 368 million. And well over 100 million East Europeans are banging on the doors of "Europe" begging to be let in, which will further dilute Britain's influence in five years, in that not one of those countries speaks English.

BUT the United States is 275 million people (actually several million more, mainly illegal aliens from Latin America). Take away Britain's 58 million from the EU and add them to the U.S., and voila! Britain becomes part of a Union of 333 million vs. an EU of 310 million: the tables are turned. Now the English-speakers outnumber the others, especially if Ireland also joins the Union: another 3.5 million out of the EU and into the U.S., leaving nearly 337 million over 306 million. Now everything's changed. Instead of a small minority being dictated to by a large majority, Britain's speakers of English become a crucial part of the most powerful country in the history of the world, a country whose language it shares and into whose innermost councils its representatives are welcomed with open arms. Real power in the United States is held by institutions in which Britain's votes would be indispensable to the success of any major initiative. Where now Britain needs to shout to be heard in Brussels, it need only whisper in Washington to deafen Brussels.

As part of Europe geographically but not culturally, Britain would serve as a bridge between the U.S. and EU, the two richest markets in the world, and would be valued in that role by both sides. Much of U.S. commerce with Europe would pass through British agents, advertising and marketing organizations, etc., bringing an enormous boon to the British economy.

At least the Irish Unionist Alliance have some innovative ideas, I'll give them that. I enjoy those who dissent from the status quo

Davey Devil

That's all we need, further unite Britian and US. Wars,wars and more wars, that's what we'll get.

ruchna

dubhthach
Dubhthach

As regarding culture connections, yea we got them so what, belguim was part of netherlands for centuries, likewise norway was part of denmark, i don't hear you calling for their reunification now do i?

I'm not advocating reunification with our sister island in the political sense. I do not support political Unionism but nevertheless I believe that a cultural, social and economic Union exists between the Republic and the UK- a Union which dare not speak its name but which does exist- the peoples of the British-Irish Isles enjoy a cordial relationship.

I'm merely questioning the justification of Irish nationalism in the 21st century. In the early 20th century there might well have been a case that a sense of difference between the ‘Irish’ and the rest of the UK, particularly the dominant English existed, but in modern times there is no significant barrier of language, culture or ethnicity. Even the religious difference is essentially that between two Christian denominations. Our shared cultural heritage of the English language and broadly British thought and tradition is far more extensive than distinctive regional factors such as the Gaelic language, and even that is not distinctive to Ireland since it is a perceived foreign language by Dubliners in our capital, Dublin (sadly but one must face the reality)

sceptre

I realise you're just quoting what the IUA are about ruchna but anyway...

Originally posted by ruchna
They have suggested that the English speaking nations of the British Isles to join North Atlantic Free Trade Area (NAFTA) plus its Commonwealth as opposed to further integration in a European Union. This would disrupt the EU to Create a North Atlantic Community.

... because it would make much more sense for the British to join a union where the larger land mass is 3000 miles away as opposed to 30

It is no secret that the majority of Britons (and some Irish) are very unhappy with Europe. They don't want to have to use metric measures.

I like metric measures. I don't give a crap how many pecks are in a furlong (yeah, I know they're two different measures before someone corrects me). Why (except for historical reasons) would anyone prefer imperial measurements? Because it's so much more convenient to multiply every yard by 5280 to figure out how many miles something is, as opposed to multiplying that evil metre by 1000?

They don't want to be told that their beef, their sausage, their this, their that aren't good enough,

... as opposed to all the checks the US carries out on their beef (see the BSE thread and especially Capn Midnight's links). I like the idea that the meat I eat has been inspected and in fact not found to be toxic. I'd imagine many others on this side of the Atlantic feel likewise.

but have to change to conform to the diktats of bureaucrats in Brussels.

Some of those bureaucrats are British. Some are even irish. I won't deny that the EU is in need of some serious reform but then again so is the US system. Bit ironic of some of the British to complain about a lack of representation, given that they've representation proportional to the size of their population in the European parliament and when their own FPTP electoral system leaves up to half the local population without a local representative that actually represents them. They might just have to conform to the whims of the American bureaucrats in Washington should they become the junior partner in an Atlantic Alliance as opposed to a major partner in a European one.

They are tired of a blatant prejudice against the English language in the inner sanctums of the European Union.

Stop the presses, I'm convinced. Where might this evil prejudice happen then?

They don't want to give up the pound sterling for a new, artificial currency, the "Euro", that sounds like a medical disorder.

They don't have to. They got an exemption on that one and they don't have to adopt it until they want to. Tony Blair has even promised a referendum on the issue that'll have to be passed before it happens so it can't happen without a majority vote.

And they sure as hell don't want to be shunted aside by a Franco-German "axis" (where have we heard the word "Axis" before?)

Oddly enough I can't remember who coined the phrase "Axis" when it was applied to Germany and Italy. Probably Mussolini or the other fella. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a Kraut, a bad driver or a Frog who thought it up to apply to the EU though.

that will decide Britain's fate without significant input from Britain's own polity.

What's a polity? If it's the British eople they'll have the input they're entitled to on the basis of their population percentage as part of the whole. The same thing that would happen with a US alliance instead in fact.

But the numbers are against you. The U.K. is 58 million people; the EU is 368 million. And well over 100 million East Europeans are banging on the doors of "Europe" begging to be let in, which will further dilute Britain's influence in five years, in that not one of those countries speaks English.

Oh, I'm sure some of them will learn English. Or we can come up with an interesting idea where someone who speaks both English and Rurithanian can act as some kind of a go-between, letting each party know what they other is saying. We could call that person a "transliterator". Or something a bit more catchy. Besides, some English people will probably learn Rurithanian or Plastican or whatever these new people speak.

BUT the United States is 275 million people (actually several million more, mainly illegal aliens from Latin America). Take away Britain's 58 million from the EU and add them to the U.S., and voila! Britain becomes part of a Union of 333 million vs. an EU of 310 million: the tables are turned. Now the English-speakers outnumber the others, especially if Ireland also joins the Union: another 3.5 million out of the EU and into the U.S., leaving nearly 337 million over 306 million.

Er, well no actually. Take 62 million (58+4) from 368 and we're left with 306 million in Europe. Add 100 million to that (all those evil ones from the East as mentioned above - they're joining in under 6 months) and now Europe has 406 million. Add the 62 million to the United States of "plays the Walker Cup" and we've got 337. The Europeans still outnumber the English Speaking State (keeping in mind that there are up to 50 million of that 337 million whose primary language is Spanish) by a whacking 69 million.

Now everything's changed. Instead of a small minority being dictated to by a large majority, Britain's speakers of English become a crucial part of the most powerful country in the history of the world, a country whose language it shares and into whose innermost councils its representatives are welcomed with open arms.

Great. Now Britain has moved from being a minority in Europe to being a minority in America. A common language doesn't mean dick if no-one's interested in hearing what you have to say.

Real power in the United States is held by institutions in which Britain's votes would be indispensable to the success of any major initiative.

Put the word "Europe" in place of "the United States" and the statement would be just as valid

Where now Britain needs to shout to be heard in Brussels, it need only whisper in Washington to deafen Brussels.

Now that's just made up.

As part of Europe geographically but not culturally, Britain would serve as a bridge between the U.S. and EU, the two richest markets in the world, and would be valued in that role by both sides. Much of U.S. commerce with Europe would pass through British agents, advertising and marketing organizations, etc., bringing an enormous boon to the British economy.

Here's a shock. Britain is part of Europe culturally. Its people are mostly made up of Scandinavian, Friesan and French (partly via Scandinavia) stock. Its language derives from the same areas. The remainder are mostly made up of Celtic stock, who arrived via Germany rather than via Iowa. The reason it has quite a lot in common with the US (principally the language to be honest) is because Britain exported the thing there rather than any other inherent reason. If you don't want to sit next to the other kids at the party, don't be surprised if they're slow to share their toys. If the French can forgive the Germans for invading their country in the past 100 years (they must have if you're pushing the Axis thing) surely ther British and French can examine the possibility of a friendship, particularly given that they fought on the same side in the last two major European wars. The kast time Britain had a proper war against the French was roughly when they were also fighting the US (six years - it's not much of a difference).

At least the Irish Unionist Alliance have some innovative ideas, I'll give them that. I enjoy those who dissent from the status quo

As do I but judging from above, their arguments would only convince a rat to jump ship if he was paranoid and the ship was burning.

rcunning03

They have suggested that the English speaking nations of the British Isles to join North Atlantic Free Trade Area (NAFTA) plus its Commonwealth as opposed to further integration in a European Union.

if that happened i would goto somewhere like france or germany and would never so much as watch any anglo-saxon tv, read any newsapaper or book, destroy my cd collection(basically all english with a few french and norwegian cd's, NO american commercial crap) and would even tipex out both islands on any map i found and spit when someone mentioned ireland or britain. In the strongest possible terms i would object to that happening.

As part of Europe geographically but not culturally

Britain is a lot closer to europe culturally than the us. Very few britons would scrap the nhs for private medical insurance, no-one would want a constitutional right to bear arms, and the majority of brits are happy to pay tax for public services. British music has more in common with it's european partners e.g. groove armada-air
than american music i.e. beautiful, vacant dead-eyed marketing dreams used to sell a lifestyle. I know the brits also do this but they also have the best music in the world.

It is no secret that the majority of Britons (and some Irish) are very unhappy with Europe.

If you believe murdoch

They don't want to have to use metric measures.

most things in britain are measured in metric what the brits dont want is to have use kilometers and meters instead of miles and yards and they have been given a permanent exemption from using kilometers (we havent, thats why we are metricifying our speed limits next year)

They don't want to give up the pound sterling for a new, artificial currency, the "Euro", that sounds like a medical disorder.

The way i see it the euro is just the rebirth of the currency we had across europe in roman times which the british pound descended from, so britain joining the euro would bring it back to the type of currency it had 2000 years ago.

Much of U.S. commerce with Europe would pass through British agents, advertising and marketing organizations, etc., bringing an enormous boon to the British economy.

Britian once ruled the world i dont think they would be happy just accepting scraps from their american overlords and providing customer service to the culturally dead and overweight like the irish do

Have you seen the Irish Unionist Alliance website?

yes and i thought there were some good ideas like trying to change the perceptions of history between the two islands. Irish history is always presented that ireland was a saintly innocent island the land of scholars and saints and all we ever wanted to do was pray, farm our land and have some craic, then from the east a great shadow arose bringing with it marauding hoardes of savages condemning us to death, famine and sexually transmitted diseases. I also believe there is slightly more to the creation of the protestant religion than henry viii being tempted by the devil with pleasures of the flesh and denying god's representative on earth (the pope) so he could marry as many women as he wanted.

Catholics we're oppressed in britain as well as ireland, and the average working class brit had just as hard a time as their counterpart in ireland. Irish tribes once controlled scotland and i dont think they got control of the lands by saying "would you mind handing over all your land and property, we're irish we're great craic" also (and hopefully someone can tell me) how many public parks have been created since 1922, we had more public baths on the coast of dublin a hundred years ago than we do today and can anyone give me a example of a well design public space since '22.

I agreed with some of the irish unionist website but when they started talking about closer ties with the us and i started having visions of hell. The reason i would be for a federal uk is that all britain would have to do to be european is adopt the euro and get serious about transport, nhs etc this could happen if someone like livingstone became the leader of the labour party, whereas in ireland it would require a revolution to create a socialist, liberal democratic republic. Also I dont believe the roman catholic view of irish history we have a lot more in common than seperates us.

I think the main reason we have bad feelings towards the brits is because of billy bowler hat and seamus we're so opprosed even though more people goto college from the falls road than the shankill road and i dont know where billy is going thinking that religious fundementalism make him british.

There is a battle going on in britain between those who want closer ties to europe and those who want closer ties to america. If and only if those that want closer ties to europe win then i'd be for ireland as part of a federal uk. One of the biggest battles between the two is coming with the renewal of the bbc's royal charter if any form of advertising appears on the bbc then murdoch and american imperialism will have won and i will bring my tv over to downing street and throw it outside number 10 and completly reject any pleasantry i feel towards britian