Know Your Foe

Hyzepher

Know your opposition!!

Now I don't mean meet them socially and buy them a drink - unless they are cute of course. What I mean is - know their playing level.

If I play in a low limit game I can be dang sure that no matter how I play there is a good chance that my AKs will be out drawn by a muppet who calls every bet with a 67o - hoping to complete the straight. This is especially true if there are 3 or 4 muppets calling every hand - the chances are that one of them will hit.

However, If I am playing a high limit game, I can afford to assume that the opposition are more knowledgeable and wont tilt on 67o when a raise comes in from early position.

Players who fail to realise the differences in these two situations will lose money - period. You can be a high roller, student of the game of poker and loose your shirt when playing with inexperienced players who know no better. All your skills in reading the game can go out the window.

So should you only play high limit games where the opposition is more knowledgeable? Well yes and no. In high limit games the players are knowledgeable and you can afford to use your poker skills with a bit more certainty but they are also better players and the game will be tougher. In low limit the opposition will be weak and ripe for the taking but they are unpredictable.

The answer is adaptability. A truely great player can adapt his style of play depending on the opposition. A world class player can not only do this from game to game but can also adapt his play during the same game.

In low limit you need to play looser and forget about thinning the opposition on every hand - whether you have a pre flop monster or not. Limit your exposure and take lots of small pots rather than looking for the kill every hand - after all one all-in beaten on the river can set you back.

In high limit, use your skills the way they were meant to be used but you need to play looser at times to ensure that the opposition don't get a tell on you.

HyZepher

Krusty_Clown

So in the low-limit games, where most players are seeing the flop, where your AKo will likely be beaten by someone else's 25suited, what hands should you actually play?

Should you be playing their game, i.e. betting on your suited 45? Or holding out for the hands where where you get a couple of folds before the flop?

mewso

In a loose low limit game I would tend to try to maximize my profits. I would not make a very large raise on AK but play it and use judgement to decide if it's winning. With very good hands like a flopped set (3 of a kind) I would slow play it (check) and try and trap weaker players into betting and then re-raise them on the turn (a pretty standard move) which will as I say maximize your winnings.

Hyzepher

Originally posted by Krusty_Clown
So in the low-limit games, where most players are seeing the flop, where your AKo will likely be beaten by someone else's 25suited, what hands should you actually play?

Should you be playing their game, i.e. betting on your suited 45? Or holding out for the hands where where you get a couple of folds before the flop?

The thing about low limit games is that most people will go to the river to 'catch' their card. If you hold a strongish hand but it can be beaten by a draw then you need to raise big so that they will find it hard to justify a large bet to catch the card.

Slow playing is dangerous on low-limit - if you check the chances are that everyone will follow and you will be giving them a free card to catch their draw.

Never play the 27s - never go to their level. Remember if you continuously play bad cards then you will lose more often than not - if they play them then you will win against them more often than not.

Hyzepher

DeVore

Er, if its e25 to see the flop on 2,7s I'll play it. Its worth it for a wild card shot....like you said, the flop can change everything. Mind you the moment someone starts talking I'd be gone unless the flop brought 2 of my suit...

AK is very pretty and I love to see it but in the end of the day thats all it is. Its dangerous to fall in love with the royalty just because they are pretty

DeV.

Hyzepher

Dev

There is a problem with playing 27, even if it is cheap. Ask yourself this question - what are you hoping to flop that will make your 27 playable? Is it a 7, or a 2 or both. The 7 or 2 is playing dead, especially if there are 2 over cards - a given on the 2. Looking for 2 & 7 is a 25 - 1 shot - unlikely. This holds true for any no paired low cards - in the long run you will just lose money - especially in loose games where every one chases their cards. In tight games you may be able to hang a bluff out there but you can rearly bluff regularily enough to compensate for bad cards.

The trick is to evaluate your opponents into tight/loose and play the opposite to them. This is a generic strategy but is a good place to start.

Hyzepher

DeVore

You missed the little "s" beside my 2,7

I wouldnt touch 2,7 offsuit with amp's!

But with 2,7, suited I would pay 25e to see if the flop brought two more of my suit.
so in answer to your question, I'd be looking for the suit rather then the card.

I'd also consider where I am in relation to the blinds when throwing in my 25e cos I wouldnt want to go higher and if there are a lot of people to bet after me I mightnt bother with it. Then again knowing me I would

What would you do with 2,7 suited?

DeV.

Hyzepher

Originally posted by DeVore
What would you do with 2,7 suited?

DeV.

I would pass - too many people put a lot of emphasis on suited cards. In my opinion the suit has no relevance - may be 9 10s up might be worth a small bet. 27s is throwing money away - even if you hit you are fodder for almost any other flush.

You would need to hit a four flush on the flop to have any play - even a semi-bluff play. The odds are against this unless there is a very big pot (to justify pot odds). With 27 you are unlikely to have an over card and no straight draw - something that a suited connector has i.e 10Js.

I suppose my point is that with 27s you are looking at winning the current pot with what you are dealt rather than looking at what should be your objective - to win money not pots. Everyone gets there share of pots - good hands average out - but to win money you not only need to maximise your winnings but to reduce the amount of money you lose - or with 27s - waste.

Hyzepher

DeVore

hmm... if there are 3 of that suit out of 5 on the board and 2 in your hand, that leaves only 8 in the deck. The chances of another player having 2 of them as well (and at least one higher then a 7) are slim enough. If 4 of that suit were on the board then I'd probably lay it down fairly easily.

I dunno, I noticed a big difference in our styles of play given that we both had fairly crap cards at the start, I could see your way of playing and it made sense but I dunno, I play to play (if you get me) and I guess I just play looser (oooh errr matron). Wait till we get heads up sometime

DeV.

mewso

Well heads up wouldnt show much Dev. Heads up is a looser game by necessity. I agree with Hyzepher. With low blinds there are going to be more players in the game looking to outdraw you. And you are playing for unlikely hands at best.
The aim of poker is to win in the long run not one particular pot and you are up against it playing those cards. Too many players play to win a particular hand instead of aiming to play the odds and win overall. If you play the longer game you have one up on the average player from the start.

Lafortezza

Do you guys actually be running through the odds of what could come up when you're sitting there waiting for the flop?
I usually just have a think about what I think other people have by the way they check/bet, and then see how my hand compares to what could come up on the table.

Hyzepher

I always calculate the odds and the pot odds - as well as notice how people are betting. One good piece of advice is not to try and put your opponent on a hand but put them on every hand i.e. all possibilities. This gives your probabilities some sort of reference. You of course need to take into account the probabilities of each of their possible hands coming up.

Ah its all maths you know

Hyzepher

mewso

No I don't spend all the time calculating odds. Pre-flop I think is quite subjective but not in the playing 72 off suit sense. What I mean is you will find ranked starting hands on the web and in books but they will always differ.
Pot odds and implied odds come into the game more from the flop onwards but I differ from Hyzepher in that I try to put an opponent on some kind of hand by his behaviour and it should affect your odds calculation. Weak players will be quite obvious. Strong players for example will only call in early position with strong hands so you can put them on high cards. It all gets quite complicated but there will be times you know your beat even if pot odds say you should call. I think pot odds is one facet of a game and you learn alot by experience.
For example if I have a a low pair, 7s say, and I'm hoping for another 7 to win and a bet comes out which based on pot odds I should call. Well you need to know the better and callers plus be aware of the board. If the board shows 2 of a particular suit and your 2 7s are not of that suit then a third seven could make a flush for someone on the board even if it gives you 3 ofa kind. You need to always be thinking. Thats why it's not a game for being drunk or tired.
I'm also reading a book called "The Complete Book of Holdem" which I find very educational and it's always nice to read more than just another Sklansky. The guy who wrote this talks about players with FPS, "Fancy Play Syndrome", i.e. likes to Slow Play big hands, trap check and all the sneaky stuff you might have heard of. I take his point that you must vary your game. One tactic I see used all the time and I was guilty of it myself was check a flopped set (the flop gives you 3 of a kind) in order to trap players (get a bet from someone else) and then on the turn check raise them. This method works well most of the time but you must vary a bit and also bet your set immediately if there are any kind of draws on the board (flush/str8) or your looking for trouble.

Hyzepher

Originally posted by musician
Pot odds and implied odds come into the game more from the flop onwards but I differ from Hyzepher in that I try to put an opponent on some kind of hand by his behaviour and it should affect your odds calculation.

One tactic I see used all the time and I was guilty of it myself was check a flopped set (the flop gives you 3 of a kind) in order to trap players (get a bet from someone else) and then on the turn check raise them. This method works well most of the time but you must vary a bit and also bet your set immediately if there are any kind of draws on the board (flush/str8) or your looking for trouble.

I can understand what you are saying and most of it is sound advice but in my opinion putting players on a hand is sometimes too risky. OK there are times that you can almost see his cards and reading them is no problem but in games where players are tough you are going to get killed.

The two paragraphs I have quoted you are in my opinion contradictory. If you can deceive your opponent by sandbagging and bluffing, surely they can do the same to you and this putting them on a hand is dangerous - especially if they have the nuts etc.

I suppose the original post on this thread is the underlying point I am trying to make - have a game plan but you need to be aware of your opponents and thus adapt - but by all means have the right weapons in your arsenal before you start.

Hyzepher

mewso

Yes indeed my meanderings lead me awry again. I should qualify I only put someone on a hand if I have played with them for a while and know their style to a degree and it won't be the only consideration. It only comes up when you are trying to decide what to do and it's one more piece of information you can use. I'm not living or dying by what I think someone might have.

The second paragraph is meant to illustrate how predictable play will render you useless in the long term in my opinion. Trapping/Sandbaging/bluffing are powerful tools when not overused and varying your game confuses your opponents.

This might contradict the first paragraph but it only means that when you don't know a player or you know is good enough to be playing with any two cards then you will have to 'put him' on anything which is just as valid as putting him on AK. It forms part of your decision.