IRMA's response to CD-WOW

dudara

The text below is taken directly from the IRMA homepage

CDWOW - THE FACTS


CD Wow IS engaged in an illegal activity


They are engaged in copyright and trade mark infringement, illegal under EU laws. The EU has these laws to protect European jobs.


They buy products at very low prices in the Far East and thereby ensure huge profits for themselves by shipping into wealthier markets (EU)


The price they charge does not include VAT (21%) at a huge cost to the Exchequer


They contribute nothing to Ireland giving no employment, paying no taxes in Ireland.


The average VAT on a full price CD is €4.


The average marketing spend by record companies on a chart CD is €3.


They carry none of the overheads of regular retail shops: employees, buildings, fixtures & fittings etc


CD Wow is already injuncted in Germany and is being sued in Ireland and the UK


CD Wow knows that they will lose these cases but will continue profiteering up to the last minute


Remember every CD Wow purchase is a nail in the coffin of an Irish job.


WHEN CD Wow is shut down, it is not advisable to have your credit card details in cyber space


Tring International plc (mainly owned by CD Wow's majority share holder, Phillip Robinson) has already been successfully sued for piracy on several occasions.

dudara

WHEN CD Wow is shut down, it is not advisable to have your credit card details in cyber space

CD-WOW don't keep your credit card details

And IRMA are completely missing the point. It doesn't matter if they succeed in shutting cd-wow down, although that would be a pity, I'll still shop on play.com and djangos.com. In other words, I'll never set foot inside an Irish record store again.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

hrm

must get my **** together and order what i want off cdwow soon

sceptre

Few comments on this list in this thread. Worth highlighting in this board too though dudara - this is the Ripoff Ireland board after all:)

spongebob

CD WOW are fine and here is the real reason Again , it has been mentioned by others before. See the line on

Goods of Negligible Value
Packages, other than those containing tobacco or tobacco products, alcoholic products, perfumes or toilet waters with a value of €22 regardless of status (for private or commercial use) are admitted free of customs duty and VAT under the scheme commonly known as "small packages" relief.

Embed that figure in your brain!

M

sceptre

Incidentally, on the last point made by IRMA, the dispute between Island and Tring (and by the way it was a copyright dispute rather than a simple case of "piracy":rolleyes: ), you might as well know the whole facts rather than the vagueness IRMA is subjecting whoever they sent this press release to:

Read this
Then this
That's pretty much the whole story. There was a second case between Tring and Island in 1996 in a dispute over the rights to three Bob Marley songs (the reference for the lawyers out there who like to look things up is 1 WLR 1256).

Tring certainly don't appear to have indulged in a bit of intentional piracy - they appear to have believed that the licences they purchased gave them the right to release these recordings. Less guilty than Michael Bolton was when he ripped off the Isley brothers. Nowhere near the implication in the IRMA statement that they have a massive CD burning operation hidden somewhere in the Amazon basin - and by implication that CDwow are involved in some kind of piracy operation (which they're not).

Tring on the whole are a good label. They license old recordings, mostly classical, and issue the releases at cut prices. They only had about 1% of the world market last time I checked but they're holding their own against the big 5 in their own corner of the market.

As regular posters and readers know by now, I'm not a fanboi of anyone. I've bought from cdwow a few times though and found their service second to none (FOTR was delivered to me two days after ordering it, arriving two days before Christmas last year for example - that's the kind of reliability that deserves an award).


Rant mode on:

IRMA aren't the only ones who can play the bleeding hearts game:
When Elvis turned up for his first recording session at Sun, he noticed that Muddy Waters was up there painting the roof. Despite all the records the guy had sold, after being ripped off by his record company, he was reduced to painting the roof to have enough to eat.

And check out this, this and this for just a few examples of real theft.

Am I bitter? Yes. I can't stand people who lie just so that thei can gain themselves. IRMA doesn't represent artists. It represents record companies. Which is fine and dandy (and there's certainly a place for record companies but after reading the above links and reading this book (reviews), wouldn't you double-check everything?
(rant off)

Jorinn

The text below is taken directly from the IRMA homepage

CDWOW - THE FACTS


CD Wow IS engaged in an illegal activity


They are engaged in copyright and trade mark infringement, illegal under EU laws. The EU has these laws to protect European jobs. -- Then who do they get their cd's off?


They buy products at very low prices in the Far East and thereby ensure huge profits for themselves by shipping into wealthier markets (EU) - larger than the record companies make?


The price they charge does not include VAT (21%) at a huge cost to the Exchequer - What's the cost then? And when did anyone ever give tax willingly to the government?


They contribute nothing to Ireland giving no employment, paying no taxes in Ireland. - Er, they provide us with value.


The average VAT on a full price CD is €4. - So they're telling us we're been screwed by the government as well as the record companies? Um, right. No change there then.


The average marketing spend by record companies on a chart CD is €3. - So what does the artist get then? And why are the albums so bad you need to spend €3 for each one sold?


They carry none of the overheads of regular retail shops: employees, buildings, fixtures & fittings etc - Um, so their effiecient then? And I'd hazard a guess at them having employees. Otherwise no-one would own the company. And they obviously have a warehouse etc.


CD Wow is already injuncted in Germany and is being sued in Ireland and the UK - So you're trying to screw other europeans as well?


CD Wow knows that they will lose these cases but will continue profiteering up to the last minute - Er, why, not, they're a company, a profit is to be expected. And I hope they win.


Remember every CD Wow purchase is a nail in the coffin of an Irish job. - Really? No more IRMA? Not a huge loss.


WHEN CD Wow is shut down, it is not advisable to have your credit card details in cyber space - So um, we can trust them but not anyone else? Credit card details aren't in "cyberspace" once they reach the destination. Wow, these guys are smart and up to date. "Cyberspace", heh.


Tring International plc (mainly owned by CD Wow's majority share holder, Phillip Robinson) has already been successfully sued for piracy on several occasions. - Other posts etc.

Heh, counter points in 5 minutes, too easy, these guys really need to cop on.

Zaph

Out of curiosity, why should IRMA give a **** if the Irish government doesn't collect €4 on every CD sold by CD-Wow? If they were consistent in their argument they should also be campaigning for people to stop buying CDs from Amazon.co.uk because 17.5% VAT goes to the British government for every CD sold. Seeing as Amazon aren't paying taxes in Ireland surely that's a "nail in the coffin of an Irish job"?

dahamsta

Is there a Boards Awards coming up? I hereby nominate Jorinn for the "Special" Award.

adam

sunbeam

Amazon.co.uk charges Irish customers 21 percent VAT on music purchases. Does any of that go to the Irish government?

dahamsta

IRMA don't give a toss about the VAT*, they're worried about the alleged "grey imports". They're not grey imports at all of course, for the very simple reason that they're sold direct to consumers, but they do have the same effect: If more and more consumers continue to move to operations like CD Wow, the /only/ way Irish operators will be able to compete is to drop their prices, and this will have to happen across the board.

The entire industry has built itself up NOT to do this, so they have to come up with more and more idiotic (in our eyes, they don't see it at all) schemes to keep the prices artificially inflated. This is one of them. I guess the beauty of it all is that with each scheme being incrementally stupider than the last, the backfire is going to be absolutely enormous when it finally kicks in. Unfortunately though, innocent parties will get caught up in it, i.e. the artists and aforementioned smaller operators.

Hopefully these guys and the independent labels will pick up the pieces and figure out that maybe having a natter with a few technologists, and actually embracing the problem rather than pretending it isn't there, might actually result in a more amicable pile of cash. Normally I wouldn't hold my breath about these things, but there are actually a few nice guys out there...

All we can do is hope that the movie industry gets caught in that backfire. And Lars Ulrich, obviously.

adam

*Not strictly true, but it's the price differential that counts, not the /tax/.

Our man in Havana

Originally posted by sunbeam
Amazon.co.uk charges Irish customers 21 percent VAT on music purchases. Does any of that go to the Irish government?

Yes they get the full 21%. If amazon sell over a certain amount to Ireland they must register for vat in Ireland.

Zaph

Thanks for clearing that up for me guys - I always just assumed that as a UK based website they just charged UK VAT rates.

Jorinn

Originally posted by dahamsta
Is there a Boards Awards coming up? I hereby nominate Jorinn for the "Special" Award.

adam

Ooh, I would gratefully accept, I would like to thank adam for nominating me etc.

oneweb

The words SMALLEST VIOLIN and SADDEST SONG come to mind :rolleyes:

WTF with

WHEN CD Wow is shut down, it is not advisable to have your credit card details in cyber space

Talk about getting childish. It's like they know there'll be failsafes in the form of Play.com etc who would happily take over CD WOW's place, but they want to avert ppl from buying online.

Truth: it is not advisable to have your credit card details in the real world either! Once in work I stumbled upon a 3-page printout of credit card names, numbers and expiry dates :eek:

Anyway, their last point has nothing to do with the price of cheese.

I'm loving the Goods of Negligible Value section

byte

Originally posted by zaph
Thanks for clearing that up for me guys - I always just assumed that as a UK based website they just charged UK VAT rates.

I had initially thought this too until I ordered some books from them. The invoice had an Irish IE VAT number on it! So I guess they/you do pay up

vibe666

i think IRMA is going to turn out to be a little dog with a big bark, but no teeth or balls. which is a shame cos i'd love to give them a big kick in both.

it really gets on my tits that we constantly get told that its our own fault for getting ripped off, but when we try and do something about it they try and invent reasons why we shouldn't.

talk about irelands greatest conspiracy.

dahamsta

Boing. Suprised nobody posted this...

January 18, 2004
Libel twist to internet CDs row
Jan Battles

THE internet retailer CD Wow is suing an Irish music industry association for defamation over claims that it is “engaged in illegal activity”.

The litigation is the latest twist in the escalating row between the online purveyor of cheap CDs and the Irish Recorded Music Association (Irma). Irma has already launched legal action against the music seller, claiming that the site is damaging music sales in Ireland. It is demanding an end to its CD sales and is seeking damages for lost business.

CD Wow revealed this weekend that it is counter-suing, saying that claims made by Irma on its website were untrue and defamatory.

[...]

Worth reading on by the way, apparently CD Wow got the site taken down and IRMA got it up again (so to speak). Now with Fast Hosts in the UK.

% This is the RIPE Whois server.
% The objects are in RPSL format.
%
% Rights restricted by copyright.
% See http://www.ripe.net/ripencc/pub-services/db/copyright.html

inetnum: 213.171.218.0 - 213.171.219.255
netname: FASTHOSTS-UK-NETWORK
descr: UK's largest web hosting company
descr: based in Gloucester, England
country: GB
admin-c: MW8691-RIPE
tech-c: DS445-RIPE
status: ASSIGNED PA
mnt-by: AS15418-MNT
remarks: report abuse to abuse@fasthosts.co.uk
remarks: All reports via other channels will be ignored.
changed: mark.wood@fasthosts.co.uk 20030805
source: RIPE

route: 213.171.192.0/19
descr: FasthostInternet Ltd
origin: AS15418
mnt-by: AS15418-MNT
changed: mnt@fasthosts.co.uk 20020113
source: RIPE

route: 213.171.192.0/19
descr: FasthostInternet Ltd
origin: AS2856
mnt-by: BTNET-MNT
mnt-routes: AS15418-MNT
changed: g.turnbull@bt.com 20020807
source: RIPE

person: Mark Wood
address: Fasthosts Internet Limited
address: Suite 7, Discovery Court
address: 154 Southgate Street
address: Gloucester, GL1 2EX
phone: +44 1452 541251
fax-no: +44 1452 541633
nic-hdl: MW8691-RIPE
mnt-by: AS15418-MNT
changed: mnt@fasthosts.co.uk 20021128
source: RIPE

person: Darren Sloper
address: Fasthosts Internet Limited
address: Suite 7, Discovery Court
address: 154 Southgate Street
address: Gloucester, GL1 2EX
phone: +44 1452 541251
fax-no: +44 1452 541633
nic-hdl: DS445-RIPE
mnt-by: AS15418-MNT
changed: mnt@fasthosts.co.uk 20020724
source: RIPE

adam

spongebob

Is there not an irony in the fact that IRMA have taken their .ie domain and hidden it offshore in the UK ....a grey export as it were.

M

dahamsta

You should fire a complaint into Fast Hosts about this disgusting illegal behaviour Muck!

Tommy Vercetti

NP: Cry me a River (IRMA version)

well not really, JT is ****e

If Irish CD retailers continue ripping off consumers, I'm all for hammering muliple nails in their coffin, even though that is a big fat lie.

One would presume IRMA is going to fight CD WOW on behalf of DVD and game retailers too since they are so concerned about our impending economic doom caused by these online cheap tyrants.

BrianD

The reasons that IRMA gave against CD Wow were pathetic and an insult to the Irish music buying public. The article in a recent edition of Hot Press was even worse where an IRMA rep tried to liken the purchase of a CD to the purchase of a digital camera. Purchasing a digital camera obviously involves a more complex purchasing process.

It's funny how IRMA forgot all about the piracy, copyright issues and the "sweat shop economies" and settled for a €3 price increase.

What I would like to know is where does this €3 go?

bonkey

Originally posted by BrianD
Purchasing a digital camera obviously involves a more complex purchasing process.

How so?

I can go into a shop, pick up a CD, pay for it, and I own it. I can do this online as well.

I can do the exact same for a digital camera.

I see no additional complexity.

jc

BrianD

This is off topic but there is a big difference in buying a digital camera and CD. Firstly you have to decide a specification, check the specs of various products, will it meet your requirements, pricing etc. In some cases your decision to purchase maybe based entirely on a feature or a technical specifification irrespective of the price. The decision making process is much more complex then buying a CD. It is also a very occasional purchase whereas, for many people, purchasing a CD is a more regular occurence. THe IRMA spokeman was trying to suggest that digital cameras can be gotten online for cheaper than in high street shops in Ireland and nobody was making a big fuss about this. They may well be cheaper online but it is not the same type of purchase as a CD.