Croke Park

Mighty_Mouse · 12-12-2003 12:00pm #1

Moderator,

I think that this is a large natioanal issue and therefore have put it here but feel free to move.

This is a letter I wrote to PJ Cunningham, columinist at the Independant. Was wondering what sort of feedback it will get.

Mr. Cunningham,

As an avid reader of you column I wish to express a point of view that I feel you may have neglected in your ‘Thursday Talk’ on the 11-12-2003.

This is my first ever response to an article so bear with as I try to construct an argument against the opening of Corke Park anytime in the near future. Firstly, let me state that I am speaking as a supporter of GAA (primarily Gaelic football).

The argument often put forward for the GAA not opening Croke Park is the traditional "foreign game" argument. I felt that you referred to this argument in stating:

"… feel it an insult to fallen patriots to even consider this act diminish rather than protect the legacy those men and women passed on to us."

You go on to state that the most logical answer to the situation of the national stadium is to have:

"... Croke Park as the headquarters for the GAA and a National Stadium on a number of other sporting occasions would hardly constitute the act of treason some are making out."

I agree with the above, but not any time soon. I have a problem with the GAA opening Croke Park to other sports and it is not a fear of the "foreign game" being played there.

I am going to try an outline my feelings on the issue.
Firstly, I feel that ‘Croker’ acts as a fitting incentive and reward to all amateur players to some day get the chance to play there. The sheer ‘awe’ factor of Croke Park is essential to the GAA. It represents everything the GAA stands for. It is a sign to every GAA person throughout the country that the GAA is alive and well in the 21st century.

Despite the increasing commercialisation of other sports, the increasing pay (drug-use) of professional sports stars and the infiltration of a 'money-focus' in every aspect of sport that the GAA can still stand for something better. It stands for a sport-focus, a local-level community focus and a pride in your local parish and county.
(I accept that there is a money focus within the GAA but I don’t believe it is the primary focus of the organisation)

As much of a fan I am of soccer, I really believe that no matter how happy I could be about a place in Manchester winning the European cup, it could not equal being with friends, neighbours watching a team win the county final for the first time, a Sam Maguire or even a Junior B championship. A real local community celebration.

To sum-up I believe that the GAA is an unique amateur organisation that should be cherished, fostered and supported; as opposed to blasted, ridiculed, called ‘bigots’ because its ‘amateur’ supporters throughout the country put in a huge amount of effort and contribute to the building of a world-class stadium.

The FAI have had Lansdowne road for as long as I can remember. Did they not see Lansdowne falling-down around them? Did they not see the decay? Witness the development of modern stadiums around the world? How did they see the issue of their ‘pile of rubble’ they call a stadium resolving itself? They did nothing, absolutely nothing except wait for a government handout which are about as reliable as CIE on a wet day.

Unlike the FAI the GAA recognised the need for a modern stadium and set out to develop and build a world-class stadium. Unlike the FAI, the GAA decided long ago not to rely on the Government for handouts and developed a plan with incorporated contingencies that the Government couldn’t pay.

FAI did nothing.

Now at a time when the GAA should be basking in the glory of its success. Relishing the reward of its hard work the FAI and IRBU decide that it’s not fair that they don’t have a stadium.

My point?
This is not a GAA issue, not a GAA problem. It’s a government and FAI problem and this point is essential in the argument for and against the opening of Croke Park.

Again, I don’t have a problem with soccer and rugby being played in Croke Park, as I am huge fan of both. I celebrated when Robbie Keane scored against Germany and danced when Ireland beat Argentina in Australia.

My greatest fear is the “toe in the door” argument. What happens if a single soccer game is played in Croke Park tomorrow or against France when the French decide they don’t want to sit in ‘buckets’ in Lansdowne?

If this happens a stadium for soccer and rugby could never be built, because the government could never justify the expenditure to the taxpayer. As for the FAI building a stadium on their own accord!!!

So once rugby or soccer is played one time? My nightmare scenario:
Croke Park becomes a national stadium forever (not a GAA stadium with other sports in it the odd time).
The GAA under political pressure from the government, the public, soccer, and rugby combined with weak leadership within the GAA agree to sell Croke Park to the government and rent it out for GAA games.

Business men, money, profit, and international politics (Tony Blair “why can’t we play ‘feel good’ Ireland v England friendly soccer match on the 17th of March) all play their part resulting in the GAA becoming the lobby group trying to secure dates for the Leinster final sometime in December, when it wont clash with a friendly against Guam or a St. Pats v Bohemians cup final.

Which to me adds up to; “we built it, but are left with our noses pressed against the window”!

Finally, I truly believe that there needs to be a second stadium in Ireland and the GAA should not open its doors until there is. A second 45,000 seated stadium for rugby and soccer with the Croke Park for applications for Euro 2010 and the really, really big matches would be ideal. So again:

"... Croke Park as the headquarters for the GAA and a National Stadium on a number of other sporting occasions would hardly constitute the act of treason some are making out."

I completely agree but not until the fears of the GAA are relieved by the construction of a second stadium.

Thanks for taking the time. I wrote it off the top of my head so I hope it’s not too much of a struggle to read.

Regards,

therecklessone · 12-12-2003 12:24pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

The FAI have had Lansdowne road for as long as I can remember. Did they not see Lansdowne falling-down around them? Did they not see the decay? Witness the development of modern stadiums around the world? How did they see the issue of their ‘pile of rubble’ they call a stadium resolving itself? They did nothing, absolutely nothing except wait for a government handout which are about as reliable as CIE on a wet day.

You seem to forget Eircom Park. You know, the FAI's planned stadium that everyone said wouldn't work, "so why don't yis come on board the Bertie Bowl"...that won't be built.

The main difference between the attitude of the GAA and the FAI is that the GAA is a far more confident organisation (and why wouldn't it be, t'would be a foolish politician to take on an association with such extensive national roots) than the FAI. At the first sign of opposition the FAI caved in on their own plan. Yes they were "enticed" with handouts, but then I don't for one minute believe that the GAA ever thought they wouldn't get any cash from the government.

Third_Echelon · 12-12-2003 12:27pm

you make some very good points there but i think peoples main problem with the GAA not allowing soccer or rugby to be played there is the sheer refusal of the GAA not to budge... they are set in their old ways...

the comments about fallen heroes of past etc is a fair one... i think this is from the article you were quoting from... The point is that Ireland has come a long way from those times and evolved into a modern country.. it still has a lot of flaws but it is still considered a modern country.. im not saying to forget that past but we have to move on..

Firstly, I feel that ‘Croker’ acts as a fitting incentive and reward to all amateur players to some day get the chance to play there. The sheer ‘awe’ factor of Croke Park is essential to the GAA. It represents everything the GAA stands for. It is a sign to every GAA person throughout the country that the GAA is alive and well in the 21st century.

if other sports were played there, croker would still have this quality and awe for the amateur game.. why would it not?

To sum-up I believe that the GAA is an unique amateur organisation that should be cherished, fostered and supported; as opposed to blasted, ridiculed, called ‘bigots’ because its ‘amateur’ supporters throughout the country put in a huge amount of effort and contribute to the building of a world-class stadium.

i think the gaa have to be commended for the effort that went into building the new croke park.. there is no denying the fact that if it wasnt for the government grants it would have taken a hell of a lot more time to build.. possibly never built..

The gaa like any other organisation has to make money.. renting out the stadium for other events like rugby and soccer would be a perfect money spinner for the GAA.. They were happy a few years ago to allow american football be played there.. and every so often they have concerts.. im sure they make a fortune when they have concerts there...

the fact that some people call the gaa biggots etc is because of the stance that the gaa took to the whole situation... you have to admit that the whole thing does have some biggoted and racist sentiments..

The FAI have had Lansdowne road for as long as I can remember. Did they not see Lansdowne falling-down around them? Did they not see the decay? Witness the development of modern stadiums around the world? How did they see the issue of their ‘pile of rubble’ they call a stadium resolving itself? They did nothing, absolutely nothing except wait for a government handout which are about as reliable as CIE on a wet day.

Landsdowne road is a rugby stadium owned by the irfu... the fai cant do anything to develop it.. admitingly they have sat on their ass and not done anything about it.. there was that whole thing with eircom park that fell through... you also mention here about the fai waiting for handouts from the government.... people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones....

the idea about the sale and leaseback thing i think is wrong... its the gaa's stadium and it should stay that way..
however, i think the gaa should help accomodate both rugby and soccer on their own terms.. ireland now has 2 relatively successful national teams.. the gaa should help with this and let them use croke park until a national stadium is built... i know that its pie in the sky at the moment...

I remember hearing english rugby fans discussing in a pub after the last ireland vs england rugby game in dublin about the fact that and 80,000 seater stadium is lying empty just a few miles up the road when they couldnt get tickets for landsdowne... and you have to admit it is a bloody joke...

i can understand the gaa's point of view.. but i think they have to step into the 21st century with the way that they think...

Imposter · 12-12-2003 12:58pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
My greatest fear is the “toe in the door” argument. What happens if a single soccer game is played in Croke Park tomorrow or against France when the French decide they don’t want to sit in ‘buckets’ in Lansdowne?

If this happens a stadium for soccer and rugby could never be built, because the government could never justify the expenditure to the taxpayer. As for the FAI building a stadium on their own accord!!!

I agree with this sentiment completely except for blaming the government. I don't normally stand up for Fianna Fail but this time I will. I blame Mary Harney. She was against a stadium from the outset whereas Bertie was right behind it.

mr_angry · 12-12-2003 1:21pm

I think you have certain valid points in there Mighty Mouse, but I think you've made one fundamental assumption in your argument, which isn't valid:

Despite the increasing commercialisation of other sports, the increasing pay (drug-use) of professional sports stars and the infiltration of a 'money-focus' in every aspect of sport

When Ireland step out onto the pitch at Lansdowne Road, and the crowd rise to cheer the heroes of our nation (and they are seen as heroes), is anybody in the stadium, neigh the country, thinking about the financial aspect of the game? I don't think so - I certainly am not. When you talk about keeping foreign sports out of Croke Park, you're not really keeping out the money-men. You're keeping out the die-hard Ireland fans who want to watch their team compete as equals against some of the greatest teams in the world - to have Ireland seen as an equal Nation with some of the greatest nations in the world. Instead, what do we have? We're ashamed of the national stadium that we have. What do other countries think of our nation then? They think of us as a backward, small-time outfit. This is the biggest shame of all, because the truth is that we are so much more, but we aren't showing that. We aren't standing up and saying that we can work together as a society and give a damn good impression of Ireland. Do you think the owners of Brazil's national stadium give a toss that a 'foreign' or 'commercialised' support is being played in it? Do you think the fans inside the stadium feel like that? I'm willing to bet they're glad that other nations can come along and think "Wow - Brazil are impressive, to say the least".

So, next time you call for a ban on these sports to keep the money-men out, think about who you're really keeping out - the fans, the kids, the disabled people who idolise the Irish team. And think about the impression of Ireland you're giving to the other nations of the world. The 'non-comercialness' of the GAA seems like a piss-poor excuse for all this, in my opinion.

Lemming · 12-12-2003 1:36pm

Originally posted by Imposter
I agree with this sentiment completely except for blaming the government. I don't normally stand up for Fianna Fail but this time I will. I blame Mary Harney. She was against a stadium from the outset whereas Bertie was right behind it.

I think Mary Harney was absolutely right. The Bertie Bowl was nothing but an ego-trip project dreamed up by our "illustriious" taoiseach. Nothing more, and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

We need a national stadium, but we do not need a Beeeeeeeeeeertie bowl or it's ilk.

harney had her priorities right. The bertie bowl was going to cost exhorbitant amounts of money above and beyond what were actually needed, and the project was only going to swallow more and more money running over budget. Justify that to someone who has to see their parent sitting on a trolley in casualty for 4 days because there's no beds and they need surgery fairly swiftly, or pack their kids off to a rat-infested delapidated school.

This country is going down the sh*tter and all you can bleet on about is the failed bertie Bowl. Thank CHRIST it didn't take off, as with everythign else this government has touched, it'd have been nothign short of a disaster.

Just like they donated 20m of tax payers money to the GAA. Some of *my* money went into the GAA's coffers. Was I asked? No. Did they secure any benefits for organisations outside of the GAA in donating that money? No. That too was a disaster.

Hmmm .. I'm noticing a pattern developing.....

Mighty_Mouse · 12-12-2003 2:01pm

Third Echelon - I agree with some of what you say and thanks for providing such an indepth reply.

A couple of points -

they are set in their old ways

.

I'm not entirely convinced they are. I feel the reason that Soccer/Rugby is not allowed to play in Corke Park is for the "foot in the door" reasons I stated. Of coarse there's an element of the "foreign game" element in the GAA but at the end of the day the GAA is a representative body and I don't believe that this is the general attitude of people in Ireland. For example, the majority of people at this years all-ireland have played, watched, attended and enjoyed soccer matches and I don't think that people in general have a problem with soccer.

I do believe however that to maintain the values of the GAA, the influence of soccer, professionalism etc needs to be closely monitored.

im not saying to forget that past but we have to move on

I agree.

if other sports were played there, croker would still have this quality and awe for the amateur game.. why would it not

I never said it wouldnt but again the emphasis should be on the GAA players because the reward of money exists for other codes.

wasnt for the government grants it would have taken a hell of a lot more time to build

Im not 100% on the the funding croke park has received, but €40 mill was held back for finishing the stadium.

people call the gaa biggots etc is because of the stance that the gaa took to the whole situation... you have to admit that the whole thing does have some biggoted and racist sentiments

Again I don't agree. You cannot tarnish the whole org. for the comments of a few.

i think the gaa should help accomodate both rugby and soccer on their own terms.. ireland now has 2 relatively successful national teamsQUOTE]

How successful other sports are not the GAA's problem. Its not a GAA issue.

the gaa should help with this and let them use croke park until a national stadium is built

Simply will not work under any circumstances. Not until the paint is dry on a new stadium can hte GAA compromise. The government have pulled out of concrete agreed proposals for a new stadium before. Like I said the minute the first game of soccer/rugby is played in Croker forget about new stadium. As a GAA person I would love to help them out but it just wont work.

80,000 seater stadium is lying empty just a few miles up the road when they couldnt get tickets for landsdowne... and you have to admit it is a bloody joke...

Again not the GAA's problem. Nothing to do with them.

The joke lies at the feet of the FAI/IRBU and government

but i think they have to step into the 21st century with the way that they think...

This quote is stated over and over agin. I never quite understand where it comes from. It has a modern stadium, ever changing rules, increasing support, dynamic local development, increasing focus on the female game, global reach, interantionalal promotional ties. From Japan to australia in football, scotland in hurling and all around the world in Handball.

The way they think! I could go on forever about this statement. The only , singular problem is the lack of a stadium for soccer and this is not a problem for the GAA to resolve

Imposter -

except for blaming the government. I don't normally stand up for Fianna Fail but this time I will. I blame Mary Harney

Sorry to be picky but last I looked Mary Harney was in Government. I didn't name people of parties , I said the governments fault.

As for Mary Harney. I agree with what she did. FF ran away with themselves with their plan. A huge waste of taxpayers money when the hospitals are in 3rd word condition. A sound, modern, 50,000 seater would have solved the problem and not had any objections, instead of wanting to build the biggest sporting grounds in the whole ****ing world or something.

gurramok · 12-12-2003 2:24pm

Just like they donated 20m of tax payers money to the GAA. Some of *my* money went into the GAA's coffers. Was I asked? No. Did they secure any benefits for organisations outside of the GAA in donating that money? No. That too was a disaster

Fully agree.
GAA has had handouts from taxpayers to the tune of many millions for many years.
Therefore a huge proportion of the stadium cost was built with national money.

Hence the stadium should be opened to any sport which has a national team.

The GAA refusal to single out soccer as non-playable is downright bigotry.

Judging by that attitude, irish soccer players are 'less patriotic' than GAA players ?

Mighty_Mouse · 12-12-2003 2:25pm

Lemming

Just like they donated 20m of tax payers money to the GAA. Some of *my* money went into the GAA's coffers. Was I asked? No. Did they secure any benefits for organisations outside of the GAA in donating that money? No

"Was I asked" -- thats where voting comes in

"Did they secure any benefits for organisations outside of the GAA in donating that money"

Dont understand where your coming from here.
Do donations to the hospital benefit forestry in Ireland? Um no ........

Really you could go on all day dreaming up examples of where donations to one part of the country dont benefit the other but I think the overall pattern which would emerge would be quite different than you intended one.

It was a GAA donation which benefited the GAA which in turn benefits the country.

Mr angry -

I think you have certain valid points in there Mighty Mouse, but I think you've made one fundamental assumption in your argument, which isn't valid:

quote:

Despite the increasing commercialisation of other sports, the increasing pay (drug-use) of professional sports stars and the infiltration of a 'money-focus' in every aspect of sport

Sorry maby I didnt explain very well or you didnt understand what I meant. As a amateur sport I believe that the GAA has a different focus to that of a professional organisation such as soccer/rugby. I think your quoting me out of context there.

When you talk about keeping foreign sports out of Croke Park, you're not really keeping out the money-men.

Every code has its money-men. Their needed to perform specific functions and the GAA has a few I guess who focus on profit. But their individual goals are are not the overall goals of the GAA.

My point is that the influence of power, politics, and money could end up in Croke Park slipping through the fingers of the GAA once the got to play there without having first built their own stadium.

... the die-hard Ireland fans who want to watch their team compete as equals against some of the greatest teams in the world - to have Ireland seen as an equal Nation with some of the greatest nations in the world. Instead, what do we have? We're ashamed of the national stadium that we have. What do other countries think of our nation then? They think of us as a backward, small-time outfit. This is the biggest shame of all, because the truth is that we are so much more, but we aren't showing that.

Again your problem is with the FAI and the government. If the GAA had never built Croke Park who would you complain to? Pretend that Croke Park doesnt exist but opening it to soccer at this moment it time is not an option. I really believe that with the amount of public support. etc the FAI would be half way to building a new stadium if croker never existed.

I can guarantee if the situation was reversed teh GAA would be half way to building Croker.

Do you think the owners of Brazil's national stadium give a toss that a 'foreign' or 'commercialised' support is being played in it?

Again, personally this is not the issue for me or in my opinion the majority of the GAA

So, next time you call for a ban on these sports to keep the money-men out, think about who you're really keeping out - the fans, the kids, the disabled people who idolise the Irish team.

If you feel this passionately about Croker then you must be able to understand my fears that kids playing gaelic around the country will have no Croke Park to dream of playing in some day if the GAA opens its doors at this present time. And remember for gaelic kids this is the only incentive for soccer , rugby ..... earn a living , make money, be in magazines like david beckam and maby aswell represent Ireland.

I must admit the point about the GAA keeping disabled people out of croke park sticks in the gut a bit. When you consider that the took a loss of revenue of 250,000 to open croke park for the special olympics, PLUS made a donation. and in return ...............................werent even thanked for the use of the hall!

Mighty_Mouse · 12-12-2003 2:34pm

Judging by that attitude, irish soccer players are 'less patriotic' than GAA players ?

no but the incentive to play the game is not the same

GAA has had handouts from taxpayers to the tune of many millions for many years.

Governement have had good return on this investment. Consider the amount of work done with kids around the country for generations for a start.

If anyone has figure for the total investmetn by the government versus the total cost of Croker.

The last figure I heard was that if the 40 mill had not been withheld, the government would have funded a 1/3. They were prepared to fund a new stadium for professional sports = soccer/rugby to the tune of 90% of the investment.

But the government withdrew the investment and the GAA said stuff ye we'll finish it ourselves. Imagine if the government had pulled out of an agreement with the FAI, what would of heppened.

Oh wait we dont have to imagine ---> nothing happend , no stadium
Gaa--> stadium finished

Imposter · 12-12-2003 2:36pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
Sorry to be picky but last I looked Mary Harney was in Government. I didn't name people of parties , I said the governments fault.

I know you said government but I think if it was just FF in power the stadium would have been built.

As for Mary Harney. I agree with what she did. FF ran away with themselves with their plan. A huge waste of taxpayers money when the hospitals are in 3rd word condition. A sound, modern, 50,000 seater would have solved the problem and not had any objections, instead of wanting to build the biggest sporting grounds in the whole ****ing world or something.

]Originally posted by Lemming
I think Mary Harney was absolutely right. The Bertie Bowl was nothing but an ego-trip project dreamed up by our "illustriious" taoiseach. Nothing more, and you're fooling yourself if you think otherwise.

We need a national stadium, but we do not need a Beeeeeeeeeeertie bowl or it's ilk.

harney had her priorities right. The bertie bowl was going to cost exhorbitant amounts of money above and beyond what were actually needed, and the project was only going to swallow more and more money running over budget. Justify that to someone who has to see their parent sitting on a trolley in casualty for 4 days because there's no beds and they need surgery fairly swiftly, or pack their kids off to a rat-infested delapidated school.

This country is going down the sh*tter and all you can bleet on about is the failed bertie Bowl. Thank CHRIST it didn't take off, as with everythign else this government has touched, it'd have been nothign short of a disaster.

Just like they donated 20m of tax payers money to the GAA. Some of *my* money went into the GAA's coffers. Was I asked? No. Did they secure any benefits for organisations outside of the GAA in donating that money? No. That too was a disaster.

Hmmm .. I'm noticing a pattern developing.....

To answer both of ye together.

A modern stadium and a modern excellence centre for Irelands many sports stars should be built. Sport has given and continues to give so much to Ireland. However in the current economic climate maybe scaling this back a bit was a good idea but I firmly believe a scaled-down version should have been built. We have first class athletes why should we have third class facilities which mean many have to train overseas? Similarly as to the cost of building the stadium it could be done by an overseas firm for a fraction of the costs. It'd be the same stadium when it's built.

(Again) I wish people would stop bringing up the health service when it comes to disscussing anything remotely concerned with government spending. The health service gets a lot of money, too much in my eyes. I agree the service provided is below par but it's not the fault of funding. How much money should the health service get before we say enough.

As for Lemmings point on the grant towards Croke Park, I think you know that they were going to give the FAI a grant for Eircom Park until the FAI decided it wouldn't fund the stadium. I'm also sure that the new Landsdowne road will get a grant if it goes ahead. Add to that all the sports that get annual grants from the government. Should they all be stopped especially the sports you have no interest in?

Lemming · 12-12-2003 2:40pm

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse

"Was I asked" -- thats where voting comes in

I did vote. Against FF. They're a useless shower of incompetent muppets. They were then, and they are now.

"Did they secure any benefits for organisations outside of the GAA in donating that money"

Dont understand where your coming from here.
Do donations to the hospital benefit forestry in Ireland? Um no ........

Simple really. They gave such a massive amount of tax-payers money to a body that is unaccountable. They did not secure any terms or undertakings by the GAA for such a large sum of public monies.

Simple as A, B, C. And blindingly obvious when you think about it.

It was a GAA donation which benefited the GAA which in turn benefits the country.

I prefer GAA football to soccer, indeed my father played intercounty for Donegal for 11 years. Let me comment on that above quote with the following:

_boll*cks_

It was a donation given to make Beeeeeeeertie look good and benefitted nobody but the GAA, allowing them to preen themselves over the stadium and rake in even more gate receipts.

Show me _ANY_ other organisation in this country which has had that level of money thrown at it. And I use the word "thrown".

Lemming · 12-12-2003 2:48pm

Originally posted by Imposter

A modern stadium and a modern excellence centre for Irelands many sports stars should be built. Sport has given and continues to give so much to Ireland. However in the current economic climate maybe scaling this back a bit was a good idea but I firmly believe a scaled-down version should have been built. We have first class athletes why should we have third class facilities which mean many have to train overseas? Similarly as to the cost of building the stadium it could be done by an overseas firm for a fraction of the costs. It'd be the same stadium when it's built.

Don't get me wrong, I think athletes in this country have been hard done-by for years, but I think perspective is still needed. Yes, we need some damn fine facilities, but at the same time, we can't justify the (initial - since it WOULD have run overbudget) expenditure needed right now. Something spear-headed by politicial ambitions is destined to end in tears given the sheer amount of corruption in the current government, with so many on the take.

(Again) I wish people would stop bringing up the health service when it comes to disscussing anything remotely concerned with government spending. The health service gets a lot of money, too much in my eyes. I agree the service provided is below par but it's not the fault of funding. How much money should the health service get before we say enough.

The problem comes back again to political dealings. The politicians wont touch the health service because it's a sensitive issue and none of them have the bottle to make hard decisions. They also wont go near it because there's little money to be made on the side out of it. Unlike the Beeeeeeeeeeeeeertie bowl.

As for Lemmings point on the grant towards Croke Park, I think you know that they were going to give the FAI a grant for Eircom Park until the FAI decided it wouldn't fund the stadium. I'm also sure that the new Landsdowne road will get a grant if it goes ahead. Add to that all the sports that get annual grants from the government. Should they all be stopped especially the sports you have no interest in?

The FAI threw in their lot when the government convinced them that the Bertie bowl would be built.

As for Landsdowne rd. getting a grant, I have no problem since the IRFU aren't in the tone of saying:

*Best Ian Paisley accent*
"NO 'foreign' sports. NO SURRENDER"

Imposter · 12-12-2003 2:57pm

I don't agree with you Lemming. I think Croke park was largely built by the GAA and is the property of the GAA. They should then be allowed to do as they wish with it, within reason (residents issues for example).

I think any sporting org that would want to build decent facilities would get governemnt support. So saying there should have been conditions on it would set a dangerous precedent if they ever gave money to anyone else. Basically the GAA own the stadium not the government.

Also the money the GAA get from gate receipts are fed back right through the organisation. Unlike what happens with soccer and rugby due to their non-amateur ethos.

Anyways, I can't see us agreeing here.

mr_angry · 12-12-2003 3:05pm

My point is that the influence of power, politics, and money could end up in Croke Park slipping through the fingers of the GAA once the got to play there without having first built their own stadium.

I'm not sure what you mean here. How would the GAA 'lose' Croke Park? They own it. Unless somebody with a vast amount of money (which it is apparent neither the IRFU or the FAI have) were to buy it off them, and the GAA were to accept the bid! No matter who they allow to play at Croker, nobody has the power to take it from the GAA. I don't think that reasoning makes sense.

Again your problem is with the FAI and the government.

I agree with what you're saying here - the long-term problem does lie at the feet of the FAI and the government, but you have to admit that the GAA posess a short-term solution to the problem. They don't have to do anything they don't want to do, but I think its a bit close minded to suggest that the GAA cannot help out other Irish teams. They can. They just wont.

open croke park for the special olympics

Don't get me wrong - the GAA opening Croke Park for the Special Olympics was wonderful, and they should have been thanked more for their efforts. But I don't see why the GAA are being selective in which people they let in. Are the Olympics an Irish sport? No. Is American Football highly commercialised? Yes. Do concerts upset the condition of the pitch at Croke Park? Yes. If you're prepared to let all these things happen at Croke Park, and let the fans and participants of all these wonderful events enjoy themselves, why not soccer or rugby? The only answer I've heard from the GAA so far (and it wasn't presented by you) is that they were invented in England. The GAA have done some wonderful things recently? Why not this?

Mighty_Mouse · 12-12-2003 3:14pm

I did vote. Against FF. They're a useless shower of incompetent muppets. They were then, and they are now.

I agree but do you expect them to phone you before granting funding to the GAA or any other body. I didnt vote for them but I dont expect consultation on granting of funding. I'm not sure how big a point this is but you did use that argument in creating an anti-GAA argument/pattern previously.

Simple really. They gave such a massive amount of tax-payers money to a body that is unaccountable. They did not secure any terms or undertakings by the GAA for such a large sum of public monies.

They did. That the GAA would build a stadium which they did. After the agreement they held back funding and decided that the stadium should be a national stadium.

For those who state that Tax payers money has been spent. The GAA is completing the Stadium themselves so as to reserve the right to decide what is allowed in their stadium.

It was a donation given to make Beeeeeeeertie look good and benefitted nobody but the GAA, allowing them to preen themselves over the stadium and rake in even more gate receipts.

Im sorry I could not disagree with you more. You believe that the GAA is of no benefit to the country. Your wrong. As wrong as it would be to say traditional music, irish landguage and sports dont benefit the country.

The GAA is only motivated by profits so as to benefit the organisation. All profit is drilled back in to local community development through the funding of clubs throughout the country.

"Rake in more gate receipts" -- does every other sport not get gate receipts. The difference with the GAA is the receipts are put to good use in the development of the game.

Mighty_Mouse · 12-12-2003 3:26pm

Mr Angry-

My fear is that once soccer and rugby got into croke park . A state of the art stadium with all the facilities they could wish for very near Dublin City Center, top hotels ,airport etc . They may not be too willing to leave again. And in this situation an unprecedented amount of pressure come upon the GAA to sell the stadium or provide long-term rental to soccer/rugby.

My point is that under weak GAA leadership a 'please the masses' , and ultimatley wrong decision could be made. And the GAA could end up being the secondary holders of Corke Park behind those with the true power = money in this world.

Its a slippery slope and one which I think the GAA should be very careful of.

A short-term solution im afraid is not an option for previously stated reasons.

ok final point mr angry.
do you honestly . i mean really honestly believe that if one game of soccer was played in Croke Park that a second stadium would be built.

Cos I dont. If you do, your the one with screwed up reasoning.

If you dont...............the Croke Park is not a short term sloution and cant be for hte above reasons

mr_angry · 12-12-2003 3:33pm

Ok, that's a valid argument. I accept that. The only thing I would say against it though, is that it is all based on fear, which is never a good basis for anything.

I do believe a new stadium would be built, and I also believe that the GAA would still have the power to chuck them out after a specified amount of time. Again, you've reasoned against this, but only put it down to fear. I'm sure the GAA could say no to the next Celine Dion concert, if they wanted to.

I just think the loss of Ireland home games to England or Scotland would be so much worse than the GAA feeling a little threatened, or maybe "put under unprecedented pressure". The FAI are already under un-precedented pressure. I think that abandoning them is a bit cold-hearted for an organisation so concerned with the community welfare of the country.

gurramok · 12-12-2003 8:18pm

For those who state that Tax payers money has been spent. The GAA is completing the Stadium themselves so as to reserve the right to decide what is allowed in their stadium.

Have a look at the irish examiner story here

"The GAA has received around €140m from the Government in the last five years, including €63.5 million for the development of Croke Park, the source said"

Also from government website

-From Nov 2002
"Grant aid amounting to €69.836 million has been allocated by Government for the redevelopment of Croke Park, consisting of €6.349 million allocated in the 1994 budget; €25.4 million allocated in the 1998 budget and paid out over the following three years; €19.05 million allocated in 2001 in connection with the use of the stadium for the hosting of the Special Olympics World Games 2003 and €19.05 million allocated in March 2002. In line with my Department's procedures for sports capital funding, 5% of the total payment of each grant allocation is retained pending the receipt of certification of completion of the defects liability period of the project. Accordingly, final payments of €952,304 are still due for payment in relation to the certification required for the €19.05 million allocations made in both 2001 and 2002. These will be paid when the required certificates have been received and approved by my Department"

Neglecting the 60 odd million allegedly witheld from the GAA, its quite clear that the cost of re-development of Croke Park has been funded majorly through taxpayers money.

Is the govt lying about the amounts involved ?

Therefore, any national sport should be allowed to play in Croke Park as most of the stadium is funded through public money and not privately by the GAA.

Cork · 12-12-2003 8:32pm

Originally posted by gurramok
Have a look at the irish examiner story here

"The GAA has received around €140m from the Government in the last five years, including €63.5 million for the development of Croke Park, the source said"

Neglecting the 60 odd million allegedly witheld from the GAA, its quite clear that the cost of re-development of Croke Park has been funded majorly through taxpayers money. Total cost was around €105 million ?

How much VAT and PAYE has been handed over to the government with the development of Croke Park?

The GAA has fine facilities around this country. Maybe - the should rent it out to the IRFU & the FAI.

But - It is up to the GAA. They clearly need to be well compansated by the IRFU & FAI - If they decide to open up Croke Park.

O

Sparks · 12-12-2003 8:48pm

Whether or not the GAA decide to rent out Croke Park is not only not the point, it doesn't even matter. What matters is that the government not be permitted to force them to do so.
That's a precedent you don't want set.

sovtek · 12-12-2003 9:59pm

Originally posted by Cork
How much VAT and PAYE has been handed over to the government with the development of Croke Park?

How much VAT and PAYE have you or I handed over to the government?

bonkey · 13-12-2003 11:05am

Originally posted by Cork
How much VAT and PAYE has been handed over to the government with the development of Croke Park?

Relevance?

Every business hands over VAT and PAYE. Does this mean that the more successful the business, the more of an underhand kickback it should receive from the government when it needs/wants/feels like one?

jc

Imposter · 13-12-2003 6:43pm

Originally posted by gurramok
Therefore, any national sport should be allowed to play in Croke Park as most of the stadium is funded through public money and not privately by the GAA.

This statement is incorrect. You seem good at finding figures so how much has the redevelopment of Croker cost to date? Once you find that number then please explain how 140 odd million is most of that!

Also the amount that was allocated towards the hosting of the special olympics was a rent of sorts and it shouldn't really be counted in your calculations.

And while your at it can you clarify why any sport should be allowed play there. The funding granted by the government was just that, a grant. There were no conditions attached other than the fact that the workmust be completed. I suppose any other sports team should be allowed play at any GAA pitch that has received any state or lotto funding? The maybe the same should be true of all government property, anybody should be allowed use it if they wish!

boo-boo · 13-12-2003 7:33pm

why should the GAA give a leg to to any sport they're in competition with ? Croke Park & the GAA itself has been built from the voluntary efforts of thousands of people - so they should give their biggest competitor a dig out ? Soccer is one of the biggest grossing games on the planet - why the hell should the GAA help it out ?
If the powers that run soccer in this country can't get their act together in the 15 years or so since the European win in 1988 that put the FAI in the big league - it ain't the GAA's fault. The ONLY great public building that was built in the state during the boom was Croker - and now people are queuing up to take a pop at it.

begrudgers - bah ! (oh & humbug too)

spanner · 16-12-2003 1:17pm

Originally posted by Lemming
Just like they donated 20m of tax payers money to the GAA. Some of *my* money went into the GAA's coffers. Was I asked? No. Did they secure any benefits for organisations outside of the GAA in donating that money? No. That too was a disaster.

i usually would not stand up for the GAA but i think its unreasonable to be expected to be asked about government donations to sporting organisations. the fact is that the GAA will be there in your local community so that if you or your kids decide that you want to play hurling or football you have the option. they are many flaws with the GAA but they have been the only organisation to have gotten up of their backsides and built a fine new statium.
soccer and rugby cant just "expect" to play in corke park. i hope that the GAA would be kind enough to help irish soccer out and lend the statium for a few games. but it is really up to the GAA and it cant be a long term solution. corke park is the home of GAA and they want to keep it that way. soccer and rugby need to find a long term solution to their problems

Mighty_Mouse · 22-12-2003 1:19pm

I'm not sure that there isnt some rule against posting articles but you have to be a member of the site to get this article.

Basically this sums up what the GAA is about for me. Hopefully the people who dont comprehend the difference in supporting Man United or local gaa team will be a small bit enlightened.

Who dont understand why an Irishman should defend the GAA first and second look for reasons after, why as an amateur organisation people should defend the GAAs right to utilise Croke Park in their own best interest and why and the end of the day the fault for a lack of a rugby/ soccer stadium has nothing to do with the GAA.

Eugene McGee: GAA tapestry brings colour to all our lives
Monday December 22nd 2003

THERE I was, desperately thinking about how I would somehow compile a column for today's newspaper, what row would I deal with, what mad manager would I home in on or what GAA official with his mental faculties jammed in a time-warp would I analyse in depth for the benefit of readers. And then I got a flash of inspiration - after all it is the season for that sort of thing - even though I was cold sober at the time. Why, now since it is the end of the year and all that, not just highlight some of the great things that the GAA brings to Irish life year after year? Forget the rows, the controversies, the court cases, the fixtures mess, the Croke Park debts, the quality of inter-county football and even the abolition of Rule 42. Just think of the good times. So here goes . . . THE NEW CROKE PARK: One of the advantages of the extravagant type of democracy practised in the GAA is that every member of the organisation feels they have as much of a say and a right to everything as the top officials. Therefore, the completion of the magnificent new stadium struck a special chord with every GAA member around the country and abroad. What really brought that home to the masses was the use of the stadium for the Special Olympics and the spectacular television coverage of the opening ceremony. Every GAA person stood a bit taller after that momentous evening last June. ALL GAA IS LOCAL: To paraphrase the late Tip O'Neill re politics - nothing gives the GAA such authenticity in the Irish psyche as the club championships from under-14 level to senior. In every county in the land they capture the imagination of young and old, revitalise parishes that have been socially and economically dormant for years and galvanise the local people into a mad outburst of civic pride in their locality that nothing else under the sun can do. In every county every year we see amazing outbursts of joy, excitement and sense of belonging when a team comes from nowhere to win a county title for the first time or to regain a title after a lapse of a generation. This year we saw first time successes for Caltra in Galway, Blackhall Gaels in Meath and the Arles parish in Laois which sent out teams to win both the county senior and intermediate titles after a local row split the parish some years ago. The GAA never worries about a row or two, which is just as well maybe, but usually gets stronger when the combatants have returned their swords to their scabbards. This sort of thing rarely happens in other Irish sports - in the GAA it happens every year on several occasions GAA IS FOR CHILDREN: The massive investment in coaching over the past 20 years has ensured a vibrant
youth structure in the GAA and in every corner of Ireland the happiest GAA faces are to be seen in U-14, U-16 and U-18 teams at parish level as thousands and thousands of young boys and girls give their all for the honour of the local parish. The sheer joy of just participating on a summer evening is all these youngsters want, but if success is added in then so much the better. Nobody has ever tabulated the real extent of this underage activity in the course of a summer's week. That's a great pity because it could be as many as a quarter of a million teenagers every week. What would Ireland be like if that facility for releasing physical and mental tension was not so readily provided for these young people? The GAA doing the government's, and often parent's, work and getting very little thanks for it. THE GREAT THEATRICAL EVENTS: The All-Ireland finals, provincial finals and county finals bring spectacle, drama, excitement and entertainment on the grand scale to the masses of Irish people every year. They are now taken for granted of course which is a pity because massive effort goes into each 'final production'. Players make colossal sacrifices, managers work themselves to the verge of breakdowns, officials do all the background work and the referees conduct the orchestras. The whole thing coalesces into a series of magnificent theatrical events from county final day in every county to All-Ireland final days in Croke Park. Without these spectacles, the lives of millions of Irish people would be so much poorer emotionally and even spiritually and the actual quality of the finals is never really that important. It is the event that counts. We should never take these things for granted when we see how great occasions in some other sports have been besmirched by thuggery, drug-taking or financial avarice and we should pray that the great GAA events will not go the same way. OUR LOCAL HEROES: Possibly the greatest thing the GAA has going for it is that the biggest stars in the game who constantly illuminate our playing fields with their skills and motivate the next generation to attempt to emulate them are all from some local area. They are part of the plain people of Ireland. They are not just pictures on the television or in the papers like the great soccer stars. The GAA hero returns to his native place after every game and the national superstar becomes just a local lad again. He can be met in the local village or town the next day. He might be sitting in front of you at the local Mass on the morning of the big match. He may be a teacher in the local school, a garda in the local station or delivering your post every morning. This local involvement by our top stars differentiates Gaelic games from most of the other major sports. They are living proof that GAA games are of the people and not divided like UK soccer between pampered, spoiled superstars on the one hand who live in a different stratosphere and the plain people who pay good money every week to watch. THE CRAIC AND THE CHAT: There are hundreds of thousands of Irish people whose lives would be totally barren without the opportunity to engage in the chat and the craic associated with matches. Getting there, meeting people, giving out to the ref, seeing famous people from the GAA, spotting former great stars in the crowd, and going for a few jars in a GAA pub afterwards. Take all that out of many people's lives and they would have no wish to keep going on this earth. After the recent famine, they will welcome the O'Byrne, FBD and McKenna Cup games in January like manna from heaven. That's (in part) the GAA for you. All things to all men and women. But where would Ireland be without it? Happy Christmas! E-mail: eugenemcg@hotmail.com

Croke Park

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