Media Watch - Science, pseudoscience and nonsense in the media

sextusempiricus

The London 'Times' has produced it's 'Complimentary Therapists Guide 2004' (10th January) to assess how far complementary practitioners meet "best practice criteria" as laid down by an independent organisation, 'Dr Foster' (not an individual but a body that compiles information about health provision in Britain and has an ethics committee chaired by Jack Tinker, emeritus dean of the Royal Society of Medicine). This is considered important bearing in mind that a third of the British population "turn to a complimentary therapist before a GP for some complaints" and, unlike conventional doctors, these complimentery practitioners are largely unregulated by the Government. Osteopaths and Chiropractors are governed by parliamentary rules but acupuncturists, herbalists and homeopaths are not so that anyone can set up practice in these fields. On p10 the guide states that 1% of the acupuncturists questioned by Dr Foster "said they did not use single-use disposable needles to protect against the transmission of infectious diseases." These were not included in the guide.
In assessing these complementary therapists Dr Foster considered the following points,
1)All the featured therapists belong to a "professional body" which registered their members, set professional standards and required graduation from an accredited college.
2)The therapists had to answer a questionaire to ascertain their level of competence.
They were routinely asked whether they gave their patients written information about their treatment, whether they communicated with the patient's GP, whether they kept their practices up to date, how long therapy would continue if it wasn't showing positive results and whether histories were taken prior to treatment. Herbalists were asked if they labelled their preperations with details of contents and expiry dates. Ireland gets one mention in the guide and this is about a 'herbal cream' for eczema which on analysis was found to contain steroids!

The guide (which is published in two parts) assesses 4,500 therapists and sees how each measures up to its 'best practice' criteria.

Part 1 assesses acupuncturists, herbalists and homeopaths. In each group there is a brief description of what the treatment is, how it works, professional bodies, qualifications to look for, evidence for the treatment's efficacy, its safety and whether painful to administer, its popularity,what happens on the first consultation, the number of sessions needed, its cost, the therapist's professional indemnity (if they have any).

There are numerous, somewhat specious, quotes from personalities such as Joan Collins (mentioned previously). These are all favourable to the complimentary treatment under consideration. Iconic Mahatma Gandhi is quoted as follows,

Homeopathy cures a larger percentage of cases than any other method of treatment and is beyond doubt safer and more economical and a most complete medical science.

The most disappointing sections are likely, at least from a sceptic's point of view,to be evaluating clinical efficacy. We just have to take it on trust when the statement is made by the British Medical Acupuncture Society that acupuncture helps relieve arthritis of the knee and hip. A sceptical warning is made by the NHS Centre for Reviews and Dissemination. It is not impressed by the

current quality of research projects, either because they have been done in an amateurish fashion or because they have not been properly supported. The centre also says that the trials provide conflicting evidence.

The absence of references you can actually look up is a major defect in this guide.

However we should be grateful that registered bodies are publishing studies to examine the therapy they oversee. At least if its all in the public eye a more critical assessment of these therapies is possible.

A similar guide for Ireland might be useful. How many acupuncturists do not use single-use disposable needles? Indeed are needles even neccessary? Acupressure has been used on patients with hyperemesis gravidarum, I've even suggested this to patients myself realising that this is usually a self limiting condition of the first trimester when it is wise to avoid all medication (except folic acid).

As regards my own profession the guide quotes the BMA,

Many GPs refer to acupuncturists, hypnotherapists and homeopaths and often the offer these services in their own practices. They may baulk at sending patients to spiritual healers and the like because the clinical evidence is not there.

And that's the point i.e. that the clinical evidence is not there. This is true of most of what passes as complementary therapies. it is important to avoid dogmatism however. In the BMJ publication 'Clinical Evidence' which consists of 2000 pages of random controlled trials can be found trials that have found improvement in hyperemesis with ginger and one of the few effective treatments for pre-menstrual tension is simple exercise.

williamgrogan

The problem with the regulation issue is that it also lends credence to the "regulated body". In fact many CAM people are agitating for regulation for this reason.

Surly the correct approach is to regulate it away?

davros

Originally posted by williamgrogan
The problem with the regulation issue is that it also lends credence to the "regulated body". In fact many CAM people are agitating for regulation for this reason.

Surly the correct approach is to regulate it away?

Very interesting issue so I've started a new thread for it.

Myksyk

Look out for The Late Late Show tomorrow .... some cranial alignment therapist on our something claiming all sorts. here may be a member of the Irish Skeptics in the audience!!

williamgrogan

Please read this item about the Riviera Reporter magazine in the Homeopathy thread .. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=1370128#post1370128

sextusempiricus

Ferdinand Mount gives a review in the 'Culture' magazine section of last Sunday's
'Sunday Times' of Francis Wheen's book 'How Mumbo-Jumbo Conquered the World- a Short History of Modern Delusions'. Looks like a book that sceptics should enjoy (and available in the next week or so). Mount mentions that

Belief in weird systems and dodgy diviners does not of itself appear to disqualify the believers from achieving quite useful things...Sir Isaac Newton spent as much time on his alchemical and apocalyptic speculations as he did on what we call science, W.B.Yeats lapped up all the occult mumbo-jumbo he could find, but no poet has written with more desolate clarity about the corrupting effects of political violence.

At the end of his piece he provocatively suggests that

Perhaps the imagination does need to wander off-beam now and then if it is to pick up fresh vibrations. If you stay on the trolley, all you see are the tramlines.

Perhaps, like Lewis Carroll's White Queen, we need to believe in as many as six impossible things before breakfast! Anyone willing to debate the issue?

williamgrogan

Lateral thinking can produce Relativity, Evolution & String Theory as well as Homeopathy, UFO's and Religion but the former are far more awesome, beautiful and intellectually satisfying then all the bunkum that the "nutz" believe in.

I would much prefer to "stand on the shoulder of Orion" than read, "I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree ..." (actually its one of my favourite poems!)

I have just downloaded the first 9Mb panoramic image of Meridiani Planum from Opportunity, see http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/press/opportunity/20040202a/MSPan_B1_2x-B009R1.jpg

Calibos

Originally posted by Myksyk
Look out for The Late Late Show tomorrow .... some cranial alignment therapist on our something claiming all sorts. here may be a member of the Irish Skeptics in the audience!!

Just caught the repeat tonight.

Oh for the love of almighty God!! (pun intended)

Were you in the audience Myksyk?? Were you infact Paul or Michael even??

Typical, the woman gets to sprout her nonsense without interuption. She evades the questions of the skeptics without being called to task whereas the poor boys are told to stick to the point. Obviously trying to explain their reasons for being skeptical of the womans claims was not sticking to the point as Pat kept interupting them. :rolleyes:

At one point Pat said maybe the ancient Chinese were onto something. Yeah lets get away from the evil of modern medicine and get back to traditional ancient remedies :rolleyes: Of course you do have to accept the downside of that ie the corresponding life expectancy of the average ancient chinese person. "Yeah I'll die at 45 but at least I didn't let that evil doctor touch me" :rolleyes:

Our problem is its PC to give these people a platform but un PC to let anyone criticise them.

Barnowl

Very sensible comments Calibos. A detailed account of the event with full reponses to all of Maureen Mulligan's claims will appear in the April edition of Skeptical Times which is free to all members of the Irish Skeptics Society. The February issue is out this week.

Anyone interested in joining the ISS please check the website at www.irishskeptics.net.

Next ISS lecture is this Wednesday night in the Mont Clare Hotel, Clare Street, (Merrion Square) at 8.00pm. Professor David McConnell of TCD Genetics Dept. will speak on "Genetics, The Most Restless, Turbulent and Demanding Form of Knowledge". Admission is €2 for members and €5 for non-members to defray costs. Lively discussion continues in the bar afterwards!

Anyone who was affronted by the views of Maureen Mulligan and her entourage and her claim that she is a scientist might well consider joining the ISS to contribute to a systematic opposition to this kind of abject nonsense.

davros

I saw the Late Late on Friday but managed to cut myself off from the Internet since then while trying to install a wireless network. I would have commented sooner otherwise.

The whole debate was front-loaded by the testimony of the miraculously-cured recidivist. We were given a vision of a peaceful Limerick and the closing down of a redundant prison system. Who would want to argue against such things? Hmm, clinical psychologists with a vested interest in the mental unhealth of the population?

Maureen Mulligan was spectacularly incoherent and unconvincing when talking about the principles behind her work. The points made by the sceptics were well made and correct.

But her claim of turning around the British prison system was unchallengeable on the night and I think this is what the audience came away with - it works, so who cares why it works. We have to find that report she claims vindicates her work and show that it does nothing of the sort.

I dread to think that this state might end up funding this kind of nonsense to the tune of millions of euro.

[PS - a bit strange to quote the opinions of osteopaths, wasn't it? Apart from giving them unwarranted credibility, there is no particular reason to assume that MM is more in accord with their beliefs than with those of conventional medicine, despite the similar nature of their claims.]

Barnowl

Hi Davros,

To see relevant material re: MM's prison work check out www.gov.ie/debates-01/12april/sect4.htm PK's interuptions on Friday night precluded expanding on this.

Quoting osteopaths is a rare event for Skeptics. However, despite the highly questionable aspects of many of their claims, in the US they are also trained in mainstream medical areas and hence are allowed to practice in parallel with the medical community. See www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html for details. Their analysis and conclusions re: cranial osteopathy are valid and well made, hence worth quoting. This should not be taken as implying uncritical support for anything else they might say. See www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cranial.html for further comment and references.

If MM is funded from government funds........!!!!!!!


fixed a link - davros

PaulP

Regarding the Late Late Show: I missed most of it but thought I heard MM was looking for 250k from the taxpayer. Obviously the going rate has gone up a lot recently.

davros

Originally posted by PaulP
Regarding the Late Late Show: I missed most of it but thought I heard MM was looking for 250k from the taxpayer. Obviously the going rate has gone up a lot recently.

If I recall correctly, she wanted 250k to start a clinic here but she also hoped ultimately to establish treatment centres in our prisons. Sounds expensive to me.

Of course, the cost would be insignificant compared to the cost of keeping a single prisoner for a year (€75,000 and up, as far as I know). Sure we would be making money on the deal.

davros

Originally posted by Barnowl
To see relevant material re: MM's prison work check out www.gov.ie/debates-01/12april/sect4.htm. PK's interuptions on Friday night precluded expanding on this.

Glad to see they were shown the door by the Dept. of Justice.

She offered a copy of her ('yes, yes, scientific') "report" to anyone looking for proof. Have we taken her up on that? I found a reference in Hansard to a report. I wonder if it's the same one:

The report by the Institute for the Study and Treatment of Delinquency provides a general evaluation of the complementary medical treatment pilot at Coldingley and records the broadly positive and supportive views of patients. It makes proposals for improving the organisation of the service and for future research. The report does not provide a detailed assessment of the therapeutic value of all the treatments and practices involved nor of the resource and other implications of continuing the programme or extending it to other prisons.

williamgrogan

The first link above is worth reading and very funny (espically towards the end when the Minister shows an admirable scientific attitude) and seems to indicate that the Minister has little time for this nonsense.

Do a search on

regarding an integrated complementary medical service

to find the start of the relevant section.

Barnowl

[She offered a copy of her ('yes, yes, scientific') "report" to anyone looking for proof. Have we taken her up on that? ]

The situation here is that the report has been requested but not yet received. As with UFO's, the existence of this report has been mentioned many times over many years, but only one sighting has been reliably reported (second hand). Efforts will be made to contact the "sightee" directly re: nature of content.

We could of course put an alternative proposal to the government. Isaac Newton, whose credentials as a scientist and genius are impeccable, spent many years studying alchemy. A search through his work could provide us with an alchemical incantation which could be recited simultaneously and at the same frequency by groups of four individuals hovering in 200 helicopters above Limerick, flying in a formation depicting a sacred Celtic symbol. The sound waves generated (ignoring the noise from the helicopters) would resonate with the quantum vibrations in the consciousness of all those with criminal neurons rendering them as meek as lambs and as helpful as boyscouts.

This would need to be repeated on October 31st each year when the earth's natural fields would suitably amplify the effects generated. This would ensure maintenance of change in the criminal population. I don't know how much the fuel and helicopter hire would cost, but much less than keeping them all in prison for a week.

Evaluation would be carried out by asking each person in the city "Well, what did you think?"

williamgrogan

I suggest you send this excellent and may I say reasonable proposal to Mr Flanagan TD who raised the matter in the Dail. Could I also suggest a copy to the Green Party TD’s (all hum & no substance) and Michal D Higgens who I suspect is with the birds.

The only flaw that I can see is the negative vibrations from the electrical power systems in the helicopter may interfere with the astral vibrations generated by the incantation.

Is Mr Flanagan TD, "we had no sex in Ireland until television"'s son?

Calibos

Quoting osteopaths is a rare event for Skeptics. However, despite the highly questionable aspects of many of their claims, in the US they are also trained in mainstream medical areas and hence are allowed to practice in parallel with the medical community. See www.quackwatch.org/04ConsumerEducation/QA/osteo.html for details. Their analysis and conclusions re: cranial osteopathy are valid and well made, hence worth quoting. This should not be taken as implying uncritical support for anything else they might say. See www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/cranial.html for further comment and references.

When Paul quoted the osteopaths report I said to myself, "Hey even the quacks think she's a quack". Pat Kenny took a different meaning, "Maureen, what do you think of that, that profesional medical experts think cranial osteopathy is quackery(or words to that affect)"

:rolleyes:

Barnowl

Originally posted by Calibos
When Paul quoted the osteopaths report I said to myself, "Hey even the quacks think she's a quack". Pat Kenny took a different meaning, "Maureen, what do you think of that, that profesional medical experts think cranial osteopathy is quackery(or words to that affect)"

:rolleyes:

You got the correct drift here. PK is reputed to be very impressed with osteopathy. Hence his angle.

Myksyk

When Paul quoted the osteopaths report I said to myself, "Hey even the quacks think she's a quack". Pat Kenny took a different meaning, "Maureen, what do you think of that, that profesional medical experts think cranial osteopathy is quackery(or words to that affect)"

This was the reason for quoting the osteopaths, not to give implicit or explicit validation to DOs, but to use ammunition from inside her own camp ... that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it!!!:)

williamgrogan

More than 2.5 million people from 180 countries have bought property on the Moon and Mars in sales that reached $1 million last year. The scheme is bogus, legal scholars argue, but business is booming and futurists have been forced to ponder the fate of celestial property rights.

Is there no end to it?

PaulP

How far should we go as skeptics?

Here is some nonsense I read in yesterday's Irish Times.

A country town, I think Ennis, is being urged by health professionals to deny permission to MacDonalds to open an outlet, on the grounds that its products are bad for children. In particular the danger of greater childhood obesity was mentioned. An editorial (presumably by that idiot woman they appointed not too long ago) recalled the experience of the guy who ate only MacDonald's food for a period and put on 25 pounds.

Now this is, scientifically, nonsense from beginning to end. It confuses two different things: the effects of the quantity of food consumed and the effects of the contents of the food consumed.
Obesity is caused by a person consuming more calories than he expends, which may be because he eats too much or does not do enough exercise. This is true no matter which food is consumed. The idiot who gained 25 pounds did so because he overate or because he was lazy. Or a combination of both.
This is not to say that a diet only of MacDonald's is a good idea because it will not provide enough of all the nutrients we need. But then that is true of any narrow range of food. I like ice cream and would love to be able to live on nothing else. But I know better and try to get a balanced diet.

Using the Ennis logic would lead to the banning of ice-cream parlours, take-aways of any kind, the selling of sweets and so on.



So the nonsense from Ennis is unscientific and I submit anti-scientific because science allows up to know better. I am a skeptic and am appalled. I think this is an ssue for skeptics, since it comes from a failure to use science properly. Am I right? Fat may be a feminist issue but is this a skeptic issue?

williamgrogan

The village I live in in France has an ad hoc committee that has vowed to burn down any McDonalds that is built there. I am an honorary member. In fact McDonalds have been destroyed in France.

McDonalds product has many of the attributes of a con, including that fact that some of their portions have trebled in size in recent years and cause people to overeat. The heavy use of “tasty” fat, sugar and salt do in a sense con people into craving their “food” just as MSG did in Chinese restaurants and I think there is another (is it Cumin, Chillies?) in big use in Indian restaurants. (I adore Indian food incidentally.) McDonald’s enormous advertising budget which is primarily aimed at children is also unsavoury.

The documentary does seem to show what happens to the health of someone who lives off McDonalds and an astonishing thing is that their “new healthy food” also has massive calories. A chicken salad has 1/4 of an adults required daily calorie requirement.

The basic issue is that if a town committee which is elected by the citizens of that town want to refuse planning permission to McDonalds – good for them.

And no its not something that I think the Skeptics have a particular interest in.

davros

In my opinion, the test is "Is this an extraordinary claim?". The claim here is "A McDonalds restaurant in Ennis will have a negative impact on the health of the local population". I feel it's a reasonable claim, whether it turns out to be true or not. Worthy of serious discussion by the local health board and the planning authorities (and I'm sure science will come in for some abuse during the debate).

But it's not "extraordinary" in the way that claiming I can move objects with the power of my mind, say, would be. So it's probably outside the scope of the Skeptics Soc.

But a general aim would be to equip the public with the tools to evaluate competing claims on the basis of reliable evidence. And that applies in all situations, including this one.

Personally speaking, if Ennis decides it already has enough fast food outlets, I'm OK with it.

williamgrogan

IT 05-02-04

Big Mac is a treat, not a lifestyle


Hats off to the Mid Western Health Board for lateral thinking, writes Kathy Sheridan. Got an obesity problem in Ennis? Simple. Ban McDonald's.

The fact that the town already hosts nine separate fast food outlets - including Dominos Pizzas - must have eluded them. But the problem, apparently, is the McDonald's product and the way it's advertised. Well, if advertising is the problem, the board has only to tune into any Simpsons episode (along with a few hundred thousand children) to get wraparound urgings to order up a Dominos. Nonetheless, the pizza chain continues to survive and thrive in Ennis.

I have a soft spot for McDonald's etc.....

This long article in todays IT basically attacks Ennis for trying to ban McDonalds but the author's arguments are poor. Worth reading though. It uses the what Gay Byrne called the "but what about the ..." argument, i.e. why ban McDonalds when the schools sell fizzy drinks. Not a valid argument as the answer is ban the fizzy drinks too.

rodney.redneck

NERDS

williamgrogan

Excuse me, I'm a TOTBAN

Told old to be a Nerd.

rodney.redneck

YOU ARE NEVER TOO OLD TO BE A NERD

williamgrogan

I see ya drink in the Old Oak! Boy

I suppose you're a dope head like the rest of them in there as well.

BTW, the CAPS LOCK key is on the left side of the keyboard and the shift key is generally under it.

Sparks

Not sure if it counts as news media, but sky are currently extolling the wonders of a young russian girl who they claim can see through things with X-ray vision...
:rolleyes: