Media Watch - Science, pseudoscience and nonsense in the media

williamgrogan

This is going to be my only post on this subject.

I lived in Britain before Maggie and after Maggie. Without her Britain would have gone down the toilet. The woman was arrogant, pompous, imperial and anti-Irish but her reforms were absolutely essential. Having lived in France I can clearly see on a daily basis that they could have done with her equivalent.

Myksyk

Some one has taken over from Marian Finucane for the week and had an item on 'life after death' today. I could only listen to some of it but it seemed that the 'investigative' journalist involved had singularly failed to investigate any of the easily accessible scientific knowledge on these sorts of anomolous experiences. Did any one hear the rest of it? Did it get any better?

Come back Marian!!

davros

I didn't hear The Marian Finucane Show this morning but I did see Nationwide on RTE 1 on Monday. There was a piece on a vet who uses acupuncture and homeopathy to cure animals.

Apparently, these methods cause no side effects, though it sometimes takes many treatments to see progress!

It was annoying to hear Michael Ryan introduce the topic with "These days, of course, acupuncture is well-accepted..." They have done this before - a piece on some wacky, alternative practice without mentioning that it is extremely controversial and should not be relied upon by the seriously ill.

Barnowl

Having visited the alternative health festival in the RDS for its final couple of hours yesterday I was totally gobsmacked at much of what I saw. To understand that people are immensely gullible is one thing, to see them stand in stunned awe listening to unadulterated hogwash is really something else. There were stalls where people did iridology readings, psychic readings etc. etc. at €50 a pop and they could not get the money into their pockets fast enough to keep up with the demand. I have collected a wealth of leaflets outlining a variety of practices and I will detail comments on some of these at a later date.

With regard to the the Finucane show, I heard some of it as I was packing my car to go to a conference in Galway. I rarely get to hear daytime radio as I am usually at work. I did call the researchers number to try and get in a sane comment, but failed in the attempt. Hearing the guy on the show make statements such as "this is inexplicable" etc. to what are very common coincidences and well understood psychological phenomena was very frustrating. The anecdotes pouring in were reminiscent of the ghost stories which were very popular in the early sixties in the Evening Herald and the Our Boys magazine which was distributed in schools. The interviewer treated these as entirely credible.

The interviewee at one point suggested that a psychoanalyist or psychotherapist might throw some light on the subject - I doubt it. However, someone with expertise in Anomalistic psychology, which studies these kinds of phenomena from a rational viewpoint, could certainly enlighten the discussion.

For any of you who might be interested in such enlightenment, the Irish Skeptics Society will host Professor Chris French from Goldsmith College, London on Wednesday June 2nd. at 8.00pm in the Mont Clare Hotel, Clare Street, Dublin 2. He will speak on "The Psychology of Anomalous Experience".

Re: Nationwide!!!
I haven't the energy!

Myksyk

Listen out tomorrow night for 'Future Tense', RTE Radio 1's science and technology programme. They have an item on 'the mozart effect', exploring the claims that specific music from mozart can effect intelligence (and the other claims that it can cure this, that and the other!). Paul O'Donoghue of the Irish Skeptics Society was called in for a soundbite of the skeptical viewpoint. The programme airs tomorrow at 7.30pm.

Myksyk

Tonight's 'True Lives' on Network 2 was about UFOs in Ireland. It all pointed to the need for people to have some scientific/psychological framework within which to undestand anomalous perceptual experiences.

Our upcoming lecture by Professor Chris French from Goldsmith's College in London will explore just such a framework.

davros

Originally posted by Myksyk
Tonight's 'True Lives' on Network 2 was about UFOs in Ireland.

Pity it clashed with "Star Trek: Enterprise"

Myksyk

I read with interest the IT's health supplement yesterday in which they included an article on osteopathy and which also alluded to cranial osteopathy. Once again, it was an entirely uncritical piece, only presenting the least extraordinary of the osteopathic claims, likening the enterprise in some way to simple bone-setting but conveniently leaving out the suspect theories and practices of a lot of osteopathy and the blatantly ridiculous claims of the cranial osteopaths.

williamgrogan

Has the (relatively) new editor of the IT anything to do with this rubbish?

I have a rule of thumb that I don't read a newspaper or magazine with a Horoscope so I will will soon be reduced to reading the telephone directory!

davros

Originally posted by williamgrogan
I have a rule of thumb that I don't read a newspaper or magazine with a Horoscope so I will will soon be reduced to reading the telephone directory!

Isn't Irish Psychics Live listed in the telephone directory?

If we are collecting nominations for "Bent Spoon" awards, I'd like to nominate journalist Orla Sullivan from last week's Health Supplement (16 March 2004) who reviewed the Mind, Body, Spirit and Healing Arts Festival. To quote:

Both exhibitors also sold oxygen sprays and liquid concentrates, plus oxygenated skin creams. But isn't oxygen all around us, especially our skin. Freely available, that is.

Not in these concentrations, the vendors claim, adding that it must also be in stabilised form or the benefits evaporate.

I don't think the copy went through any sort of editing or fact checking because, apparently, "A big new attraction was Kilraine [sic] photography, a method of recording a person's electromagnetic body [sic again]" and there was also a quote from visitor "Sign Hayes, a software sales rep", though I suppose it's not the weirdest claim at the festival that someone has a first name of "Sign".

PaulP

For a laugh, The Onion has the following which I hope they will permit me to quote in full..

Psychic Helps Police Waste Valuable Time
MANCHESTER, NH—More than 36 hours after the disappearance of 13-year-old Heather Jordan, Manchester police hired local psychic Lynette Mure-Davis to help waste their valuable time Monday. "I see a river... and along the banks is an outcropping with five lilac bushes," said Mure-Davis, who then paused a full 90 seconds to "collect vibrations" from Jordan's scarf. "I also see a man... tall, but stocky, wearing... a hat. And an animal, perhaps a dog." As of press time, Jordan was still trapped under a collapsed utility shed three blocks west of her house.

Barnowl

With reference to the article by Orla Sullivan in the Irish Times on the RDS Festival, I'm sure Davros would like to know that this tendency to print uncritical articles on all kinds of alternative nonsense continued in the latest health section with two pieces on Osteopathy penned by Sylvia Thomson.

Andrew Taylor Still, the father of osteopathy claimed in his autobiography that he could "shake a child and stop scarlet fever, croup, diphtheria and cure whooping cough in three days by a wring of its neck". Surely calculated to bring the patients running.

williamgrogan

What is amazing is that those that follow CAM will submit their child to one of these quacks, allow an acupuncturist to stick a needle in them when many do not sterilse their needles, give them untested and uncontrolled herbal medicines which may contain toxins and yet refuse to take the risk however small with MMR.

Their logic is weird. I think it must be a case of making a decision based perhaps on a gut feeling and then sifting out the evidence in favour and ignoring anything else.

A Scientist was being pressed by a journalist to give his opinion and he kept saying that he didn't know as the evidence wasn't in. Eventually the journalist said, "well what's your gut feeling" and he replied, "I don't think with my gut".

Sparks

Originally posted by Barnowl
Andrew Taylor Still, the father of osteopathy claimed in his autobiography that he could "shake a child and stop scarlet fever, croup, diphtheria and cure whooping cough in three days by a wring of its neck". Surely calculated to bring the patients running.

In fairness, it's a perfectly correct claim. Death does tend to end most, if not all, diseases....

NinjaBart

Originally posted by williamgrogan
Their logic is weird. I think it must be a case of making a decision based perhaps on a gut feeling and then sifting out the evidence in favour and ignoring anything else.

thats terrible but you woudnt see that on this board :rolleyes:

Myksyk

This is actually an interesting point Ninjabart. If one is honest, we obviously all have a tendency to do this. I still have difficulty reading books/articles which fundanmentally disagree with my current position and so am in a difficult position to fully appreciate the dissenting voice.

True objectivity is probably impossible. Stephen Gould maintained and that the best we can do is be aware of our unavoidable prejudices and biases.

williamgrogan

I think Erwin Schrödinger said (and I loosely quote) “Science moves on to new theories, not when the existing scientists become convinced of the new theories but when the old scientists die off.” I think that Einstein is a prime example here. Brought up with the Classical Theory of Physics he rejected Quantum Mechanics. I never had a problem accepting Quantum Mechanics yet Einstein did. Weird!

Someone else said that the sign of a real genius is that he can see & understand both sides of a conflicting argument at the same time (very approx. quotation)

PaulP

Dave Barry strikes a blow for dietary common sense. And in the funniest way possible.


BTW: Willam Grogan: Einstein had no problem with quantum mechanics. He invented it. He did not think it was the final word and disliked the quasi-mystical undertones Bohr liked to impute to his particular take on it.

williamgrogan

BTW: Willam Grogan: Einstein had no problem with quantum mechanics. He invented it. He did not think it was the final word and disliked the quasi-mystical undertones Bohr liked to impute to his particular take on it.

While I was using shorthand in what I said, I don't agree with your reply either. Einstein didn't discover QM, he discovered the Quanta. He contributed very little to the bulk of QM. He did not accept the underlying principal that things can happen for no reason. Anyway my point remains either way, he refused to accept what the bulk of scientists believed, in fact proved, even though he was obviously a genius. I think msot people would reagrd Esintein as being wrong on QM. That was my point.

PaulP

"He did not accept the underlying principal that things can happen for no reason.".
This is not just incorrect about Einstein, it's wrong about science.


Einstein did not agree with the "Copenhagen interpretation" of quantum mechanics. With the mathematics he had no problem. (He nominated Heisenberg of Uncertainty Principle fame for the Nobel prize).

Two interesting facts:

1) As told by Feynmann himself: while Feynmann was still developing his famous diagrams he presented his work-in-progress to an audience including Bohr, Pauli and Einstein. Bohr lacerated Feynmann's work because he thought it violated his precious interpretation. Pauli concurred. Einstein thought the work promising. Feynmann got a Nobel prize for it. It is central to all advanced quantum physics.

2) David Bohm developed a version of Quantum Mechanics that is completely deterministic. Naturally it was rejected by Bohr. For some reason it was also not accepted by Einstein.

Myksyk

Joe Duffy - Monday March 29th

Tahitian Noni Juice

I was told today that Joe Duffy gave over a lot of his programme to discuss claims made for Tahitian Noni juice. Did anybody here the programme? Did they touch on the other 'wonder liquids' like Blue water and Tachionic water?

Apparently, when one of the sellers of this juice was asked if she was making claims on its behalf said she was not, but that it was great for arthritis!!

Anyway, if anyone has more detail on the show I'd like to hear it.

williamgrogan

You can listen to the last 5 Joe Duffy shows, including Monday's, here

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/afternoon/liveline/index.html

(I got food poisoning yesterday - beef sandwich, I'm literally in sh1t, will it cure that?)

williamgrogan

I listened to the Monday Joe Duffy show. To be honest Joe was quite sceptical.

The guy importing the Noni Juice used all the standard moves. “Thousands of years old”, “his brother who has got 10 cancer tumours can now sleep better”, “it cured my athlete’s foot”, “he’s not doing it for the money just to help his friends”, “pure product”, “it’s a supplement”, “I feel like a new person since I started taking it”, “I can do with 5 hours sleep a night” and the funniest by far - "my sister is a doctor". The bottle also contains “organic” blueberry. Lots of anecdotal stories. “It was to detox my system”, “it’s a tonic”. “My immune system is stronger”. “Old ways are better than new ones”. In fact the importer was cut off by Joe as he tried to read out some letters from people testifying to its curative properties. “It stops you smoking”.

One chancer at the Body & Soul exhibition told a woman who tasted Noni Juice and said it was bitter, that that was a sign her body was toxic and she should take it to rectify the situation. J***s imagine having a toxic body?

The pyramid selling angle is a new one on me for selling scam “medicines”. With Noni Juice you get two scams for the price of one!

“Mix it with your favourite juice”, sounds like Blue Water.

The actual quantity of Noni Juice in the bottle seems to be very small. Maybe at Homeopathy levels?

Apparently it’s big in Cavan. I thought Cavan people were cute hoors?

The real danger was exposed by a person who phoned in, who was a seriously out of breath asthmatic, who said that she had been taking it for a month. Asthmatics can get a fatal attack if they stop taking their medication. She said it improved her Asthma. She “has more oxygen in her body”.

The connection that exists between the various scam artists was evident when a Reflexology type from Cavan rang in to say she sells it. She said that conventional medicine “breaks down your immune system”. She was sensible in so far as she didn’t claim anything which might lead to her arrest but like them all claimed various things. She then said that a client of hers said that, “her Skin rash was cured by Noni Juice.“ She insisted that she wasn’t saying it, just her client who paid her €50 a bottle for the juice.

In the USA they have been taking legal action against the sellers of this snake juice. Why do the police or the relevant department not act in Ireland?

pork99

Originally posted by williamgrogan
In the USA they have been taking legal action against the sellers of this snake juice. Why do the police or the relevant department not act in Ireland?

Ah Ireland, the land of mug punters

Calibos

Today's Herald..............oh dear lord.....:rolleyes:

I can just imagine the Heralds marketing director in the editors office

M -"We're losing out on the airy fairy new age dollar, we can't negelect that demographic"

Ed -"who??"

M -" ya know the type....remember the lotto ad....I'd buy a cloud.....buy a lotto or it could be her.....ya know the one"

Ed -"oh yeah, but that lot are off their rocker"

M -"Who cares, if it makes them buy the paper cause we're down with the life meridians Man!"

Ed -"Suppose your right, I'll commision a piece for Wednesday"

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

DapperGent

Originally posted by PaulP
Dave Barry strikes a blow for dietary common sense. And in the funniest way possible.
B]

Perhaps a better place to focus your scepticism is on the idea that human beings are designed to be eating food derived from arable farming after perhaps a few thousand years of getting used to it as opposed to several million years of existence as scavenger/hunter/gatherers.

williamgrogan

Perhaps a better place to focus your scepticism is on the idea that human beings are designed to be eating food derived from arable farming after perhaps a few thousand years of getting used to it as opposed to several million years of existence as scavenger/hunter/gatherers

I don't understand where skepticism comes into this sentence?

Are you saying that we should be scavaging and not eating arable food because we are skeptical?

DapperGent

I just see a lot of healthy scepticism being directed towards low-carbohydrate diets (Atkins, Paleo etc.).

Personally I think a proper focus for scepticism is towards the idea that human beings are suited to diets based on the products or arable farming (cereals, potatoes etc.) given that we've only had the an evolutionary blink of an eye to get used to them.

williamgrogan

I see, I think that you are saying that skeptic would logically conclude that we might be better off health wise eating as scavengers.

I actually gave up drinking milk partly because of this. (Lots of udder reasons; to lose weight, cut down on calories, cut down on fat (I come from a long line of dead from heart attack types, coffee tastes better sans lait)).

I watch my dog eat anything and as another evolved scavenger I can see that his system handles it but I doubt that over the last 10,000 years of eating our existing diet that eating raw rat would be good for us or advisable.

Anyway I like Nuit St George, Stilton, Fois Gras (ssh!), Coq Au Vin, dark chocolate, etc.. but I still accept your point. They say milk makes many Indians sick.

DapperGent

Originally posted by williamgrogan
They say milk makes many Indians sick.

Lactose intolerance is the default state of humanity, the overwhelming majority of irish people are lactose tolerant due to large amount of dairy herding in our ancestry. Powdered milk was used as a relief foodstuff for some humanitarian disasters in South America during the 60s and 70s. They used it to whitewash houses as it made them so sick!

Eating raw meat would be a bit of a loser as we would be far more likely to become sick. Losing some carbohydrates (especially highly processed ones) from our diet and replacing them with (arguably) more "natural" foods like leafy vegetables, seeds nuts, protein and animal fats brings you closer to what humans have eaten for most of their existence. Unlike lactose tolerance their is no evolutionary constraint with eating carbs (we could already do so by the time we started farming) so we're essentially at the same point with respect to arable crops as we were at the start of farming. Except we don't have to work for them and we're all getting fat. Really fat.