Gimli of Gloin and the War on Terror

Biffa Bacon

I thought this article was timely and interesting, specifically the comments from John Rhys-Davies. Just wondering what Bush-not-liking LotR fans think of it, are they disillusioned or can they distinguish the man from the artist?

Sand

Hes a very brave man to break with the approved party line. Regardless, hes going to pay for his opinions. The sneers hell earn are one thing, the fact hell find it very hard to get work when hes the Nazi actor is the other.

Ronan|Raven

Being a disliker of Bush and a lover of the LOTR books/films, I personally have no problem with him making those comments he is perfectly entitled to his opinion, whether one agrees with it or not. It is indeed an interesting article. Still cant wait to see him in the Return of the King

ReefBreak

Focusing on the necessity of defending civilization in times of crisis, Rhys-Davies took the media to task for failing to appreciate the preciousness of Western civilization, and warned of the potential consequences of rising Muslim extremism and the increasingly Islamic face of Europe.
...
Looking at the lone female journalist at the table, Rhys-Davies said pointedly, “You should not be in this room [according to Muslim custom]. Because your husband or your father or your husband is not here to guide you. You could only be here in this room with these strange men for immoral purposes.”
..
"There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we daren’t bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially. And rightly we should be. But there is a cultural thing as well… By 2020, fifty percent of the children in Holland under the age of 18 will be of Muslim descent…

Although I am very much pro-immigration, I think the idea of (say) Ireland being 50% Islam is just too scary to even contemplate.

The problem with Rhys-Davies comments is not whether it's right or wrong, it's that the stereotypical Guardian reader will immedietely jump on the Xenophonic bandwagon without even considering for a moment the consequences of a massive rise in the Islamic population in the UK/Ireland.

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
The problem with Rhys-Davies comments is not whether it's right or wrong, it's that the stereotypical Guardian reader will immedietely jump on the Xenophonic bandwagon without even considering for a moment the consequences of a massive rise in the Islamic population in the UK/Ireland.

Yeah, because a 99% roman catholic population has lead to the land of milk and honey, with freedom and justice for all, and an egalitarian society whose quality of life and economic strength is a beacon for the entire world...
:rolleyes:

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Sparks
Yeah, because a 99% roman catholic population has lead to the land of milk and honey, with freedom and justice for all, and an egalitarian society whose quality of life and economic strength is a beacon for the entire world...
:rolleyes:

Who said anything about Roman Catholic? Why do you assume I'm Roman Catholic? Granted the Catholic church has plenty of faults, and I've no love for it whatsoever. But given a choice between a Catholic-run country and an Islamic-run country, there's no question over which one I'd choose.

Answer honestly: given an absolute choice between one or the other, which one whould you choose to live under?

seamus

Originally posted by Sparks
Yeah, because a 99% roman catholic population has lead to the land of milk and honey, with freedom and justice for all, and an egalitarian society whose quality of life and economic strength is a beacon for the entire world...
:rolleyes:

I don't think that's the point he's making. In the modern world, Christianity is rarely extremist or oppressive.

The laws in many eastern countries are based heavily on religion, and as such, tend to be extremely discriminatory and oppressive. We can't say for sure that if Ireland had a Muslim majority, that they would begin to have laws changed, and women would have to go back to caring for the children, and begin wearing fully body coverings, but from experience, Muslim/Islamic devotees tend to be just that - devoted. In my experience, you are muslim, or you are not muslim - there is very little room for movement, as there is with "non-practising catholics" and the like.

I could very much be wrong

Sparks

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Answer honestly: given an absolute choice between one or the other, which one whould you choose to live under?

Ah, the absolute choice, the ultimate in over-abused hypothetical scenarios...

If those were my choices Reef, I'd choose neither and go into exile.
Both have moderates whose lives are perfectly acceptable and extremists whose lives do nothing but cause misery and pain for everyone they have influence over.
Thing is - if you head down the xenophobe's route, you're being nothing more complex than a KKK member or something similar.

Sparks

Originally posted by seamus
In the modern world, Christianity is rarely extremist or oppressive.

I could very much be wrong

You are. EU research funding for stem cell research. Abortion. Divorce. Child molestation and institutionalised physical abuse. And that's just our country in living memory. Expand your view to Church activities worldwide in the past century and you'll find examples of behaviour worthy of the most one-dimensional fictional villan....

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Sparks
Ah, the absolute choice, the ultimate in over-abused hypothetical scenarios...

If those were my choices Reef, I'd choose neither and go into exile.
Both have moderates whose lives are perfectly acceptable and extremists whose lives do nothing but cause misery and pain for everyone they have influence over.
Thing is - if you head down the xenophobe's route, you're being nothing more complex than a KKK member or something similar.

That's exactly how I thought you'd answer. That's why I highlighted the "absolute" part. The thing is, you already live in a moderately catholic country (becoming more secular and less catholic year by year), yet you haven't gone "into exile". Wherever that is.

I'll try another one.

Answer honestly: given an absolute choice between a moderate Catholic country or a moderate Islamic Country, which one whould you choose to live under?

I've quite spent some time in Jordan, Egypt and Morocco - all quite secular, moderate Islamic countries. I still think I'd choose the moderate Catholic country, i.e. Ireland.

seamus

Originally posted by Sparks
Thing is - if you head down the xenophobe's route, you're being nothing more complex than a KKK member or something similar.

That's where the difference is....
Racism and Xenophobia are based on prejudice.

There was a short but useful discussion about this on IRC of all places yesterday. If you've been bitten by snake, it's quite OK to afraid of all snakes, even though some aren't poisonous. With a little education, you can learn which ones may bite you again, but to have that fear is neither discriminatory nor irrational.

For me to say "I don't mind Muslims/Jews but I wouldn't want them to run the country" is identical to saying "I don't mind Sinn Féin, but I wouldn't want them to run the country".

IMO

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

hrm...
if you'd said "i don't want their laws and customs forced on me" then maybe.. but "i don't want them running my country" is still pretty prejudiced

vibe666

at the risk of being shot down for my opinions....

the right wing section of the muslim culture is a long way beind the western world in dealing with a lot of the things we take for granted these days.

sexual equality, tolerance of other religions/faiths and sexualities and lots of other things that people don't even think about in a modern western society, but take for granted without even consciously thinking about them at all.

if the muslim faith becomes the dominant religion in the western world, the extreme sections of the faith will eventually climb to power because the other end of muslim society won't fight for what they have gained through western influence. what is going to happen to the things we have all fought so hard to keep?

society as a whole will have no choice but to follow the majority as it always has, but what if that majority says that women should stay in the home, and raise the family while the man goes to work. what happens when other religions are not given the same freedom and respect as the main religion? what happens if any non-muslims worldwide are persecuted for having a different faith?

I'm not in favour of any particular religion particuarly, but it seems that a large section of the islamic faith holds a lot of extreme beliefs that do not fit well with what western society wants or needs.

i believe everyone has the right to prectice whatever religion they like, wherever that may be, but until all religions/beliefs give each other the same rights and freedoms as they afford themselves that's not going to happen.

maybe i'm just believing too much of what the media tells us, but every time i see some kind of extreme relious act on tv it's a right wing muslim doing it.

you don't see buddist extremist suicide bombers do you? i've never seen the aftermath of a hindu car bomb or jews executing people in public squares for crimes against their religion.

i know it's not all of the islamic faith, and that a lot of muslims believe in almost exactly the same things as western (and other eastern) religions do, but there is an increasing majority of people following the extremist path laid by muslims who are willing to kill and destroy anything that isn't what they believe to be 'right'.

to some right wing muslim extremists the people in the western world are lower than rats and don't deserve to live. people like osama bin laden and others who would happliy kill every non-muslim on the planet if they could do it are spreading through western society under the guise of being part of legitimate muslim culture and one day very soon, we are going to find out exactly how much hate they have for the rest of us and sept 11th will pale in comparison.

sovtek

Oh yeah I thought actors weren't supposed to express political views. He should just shut up.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Although I am very much pro-immigration, I think the idea of (say) Ireland being 50% Islam is just too scary to even contemplate.

That sounds an awful lot like "I'm not a racist but..."
Why is that idea too scary to contemplate?
Just because there might be a high number of Muslims in the country doesn't mean the place will turn into another Taliban run Afghanistan.
Why would all our laws change to Islamic laws?
You claim to have spent time in other Muslim countries, why would you prefer to live in Catholic country?

seamus

Originally posted by Mordeth
hrm...
if you'd said "i don't want their laws and customs forced on me" then maybe.. but "i don't want them running my country" is still pretty prejudiced

I would think that both things are almost the same. All those people who didn't vote for Fianna Fáil have their rule 'forced' on them just the same. But such is the price we pay for living in a democracy. Just the same, an increase in a Muslim population would eventually and democratically lead to a majority Muslim government.

Discrimination and prejudice are not the same thing. Young drivers are discriminated against, but it's not prejudice, it's discrimination based on statistical data.

/me closes that can of worms sharpish

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
That sounds an awful lot like "I'm not a racist but..."
Why is that idea too scary to contemplate?

Yeah, I figured someone would drop the old "I'm not a racist" chestnut at some stage. I don't have to prove to anyone that "I'm not a racist" but I will if you want me to. Anyway, this thread is not about racism, it's about religion. It's about the possibility of Ireland becoming an Islamic state - if you'd prefer that to a secular or even a christian state, then I'd suggest that you're incredibly naive.

Just because there might be a high number of Muslims in the country doesn't mean the place will turn into another Taliban run Afghanistan.

I agree. A majority of muslims would be a diferent story.

Why would all our laws change to Islamic laws?

...if there was a majority of muslims in Ireland.

You claim to have spent time in other Muslim countries, why would you prefer to live in Catholic country?

Where can I start? Ireland v Turkey? Sorry, Ireland wins hands down: women's rights for a start.

Frank Grimes

ReefBreak, there are a lot of Muslims majority countries that are not Islamic states.
Do you know any Muslim women living in these (or any Muslim - not fundamentalist states) countries? What do they think about their rights?
btw. I wasn't accusing you of rascism, in case it sounded like that.

sovtek

As a population of people emigrates into another, it usually picks up alot of the indigenious culture.
Alot of Muslims might be in Ireland, but it would still be Ireland and the people living here would be Irish.
Mexicans or Mexican Americans are prevelant where I'm from. Texas isn't Mexico.

If nothing else the food would be better.

bonkey

Originally posted by ReefBreak
[BI agree. A majority of muslims would be a diferent story. [/B]

So, while you're dead set against immigration allowing this number in, what would you do if - as JRD points out is the case in Holland - the indigenous Muslim population grows over time and becomes the majority simply through a higher birth rate?

Should we start mandating that the birth-rate average for non-Catholic (or Christian, or Judeo-Christian if thats a more accuratewhat you find acceptable) families cannot exceed that of your chosen religious group?

Or perhaps we should change our citizenship laws so that newborns are not granted citizenship if they do not fit into our religiously-profiled majority-ensuring system?

And what do we do about those people who may choose to convert their religion? Do we revoke rights that they have?

While I acknowledge that there is a problem with the current clash of cultures, I do not accept that the problem is as simple as the religion that people follow, nor do I accept that the solution is the recreation of secular states or other seperationist actions.

jc

ReefBreak

I am not suggesting for a minute that we control the flow of legal immigrants or refugees based on their religion. Neither am I suggesting that we mandate "that the birth-rate average for families cannot exceed that of your chosen religious group?" But regardless, I cannot help but feel a large amount of opposition towards Islam becoming the main religion in Ireland. That is how I feel, I can't help it, so sorry. And I don't know what the solution would be apart from adopting policies that I would also find repulsive. I would have no problem whatsoever with Prodestantism or Anglicanism (is that a word?) or even Buddism becoming the main religion. But Islam? Sorry, no.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by ReefBreak
But regardless, I cannot help but feel a large amount of opposition towards Islam becoming the main religion in Ireland.

If it gets to the stage where the majority of the population is Muslim, what do you think will happen?
Should it be like the way South Africa was?
It will probably never happen anyway. But you should try education yourself on the religion, it's nothing to be afraid of. Just like Communists weren't in the 50s, you're starting to sound like McCarthy and his buddies.

shotamoose

Just because Islam seems unacceptable in tribal, conservative and patriarchal societies, it doesn't mean Islam is or will be unacceptable in pluralistic, open and democratic ones.

Much of the fear of Islam seems to me to be based on a kind of inferiority complex: hard-line conservative Islam will swamp our 'Western civilisation' because the first is in some way strong and the second is in some way weak.

As far as I can see, it doesn't work that way. Living in London, it looks like it is more a case of Muslims adapting to UK culture than the other way around. Of course, it's possible to argue that UK Muslims are just biding their time until they're in a majority (which is when, exactly? 2050, 2100, 2200?) at which point they announce, "Aha! You didn't think we had really changed, did you? Now let's make the Queen wear a burka!".

Call me short-sighted for only caring about the next several decades or so, but talk of Islamic culture swamping Europe is completely absurd to me.

Sparks

Wow. Lots of arguing over nothing. Did noone bother to look at the actual data? To gain a majority here, you'd have to import approximately two-and-a-half million muslim immigrants.

And for the record, the order of religious groups in this country by number of people in them does not run "Christianity, Islam, others" - it runs "Roman Catholic, Non-Religious, others". And the Non-Religious group is much larger than any of the other groups.

Redleslie

Are the muslims the evil orcs then? Ruined twisted caricatures of real men, creatures to be pitied for their misfortune as well as feared for their brutality and cruelty while their evil masters' hatch mad plans to chop down all the trees in the world, send massive armies rampaging all over the world, create an industrialised hell to exploit the workers, and export all the local produce to christ knows where.

Anyway, yer man seems to be ignoring the fact that in Europe, people just aren't having many children, so is that the fault of the muslims is it? I don't think so.

Sand

I think JRD was making the point that Western civillisation and its eglatarian values is fairly unique and precious and is consistently undervalued whilst its durability is overestimated - it has not always existed and indeed has only been around in a recognisable shape since the early 1900s and it is not a permament thing. He was also saying that whilst immigration of people to Europe is not a major issue, the immigration of mind sets which do not share the values of western civillisation is as given democracy it will lead to a real change in the rights and liberties granted to us by western civillisation. Hes raising it as an issue which should not be ignored in a climate where immigration of any sort from anywhere is seen as inherently great because it will mean better and more diverse takeaways ( stereotyping :z ).

Its a valid point and as I said hes got some balls to say it - however I think hes underestimating the fact that whislt the first generation immigrants may indeed hold a mindset hostile to western values their children and their grandchildren will be born into those values from the offset. So long as the "us and them" tribalism doesnt develop which would lead to a clinging to cultrual traditions which define "us" there shouldnt be a problem. On the other hand a British schoolgirl recently drank bleach to get out of a marraige her parents had arranged for her in Pakistan to a man she had never met. She was brought back to the UK for treatment but was removed from hospital and has since dissapeared - police are worried because given the horrific internal injuries she suffered she needs a lot of medical attention. Her family claim they dont know where she is. This was about 2-3 weeks ago. Ive heard nothing since but hopefully she turned up safe and sound.