A very important issue - Do NOT sign the "Save Irish" petition.

ReefBreak

I've posted this on the "Gaeilge (Irish)" board also...

I like Irish, but is driving me fúcking nuts. I have received an email from about 4 different people asking me to "demand that the Irish language be declared an official working language of the European Union."

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_perl/signed.cgi?gaedhilg

Crikey. There already over 34,000 saddos that have signed this, usually with some sort of MOPE invective attached.

Look, there are currently 11 "official working languages" in the EU: German (spoken by Germany, Austria and Belgium), English (UK and Ireland), Spanish, Danish, Finnish, French (France and Belgium), Dutch (Netherlands and Belgium), Greek, Italian, Portuguese and Swedish (Sweden and Finland). When the EU is expanded, this list will be increased to 20 to encompass the new entrants.

Catalan, Basque, Welsh, Irish, Flemish are just a few of the languages that are NOT considered Official Working Languages. In fact, Catalan would be the seventh most spoken language (10 million speakers) were it Official.

A working language means that all "EU treaties and regulations are published in them. As they are working languages, all internal and procedural documents are published in them and official meetings must take place with simultaneous translation." *

So in the case of Irish, every official EU document and and every official EU meeting would have to be translated into Irish. It was be a pointless waste of time and money. In fact there might not even be any native Irish speakers left in Ireland - they'd all be working in Brussels. :-)

This petition is the most pointless, nit-picky, pathetic, waste of time ever. Don't sign it - it's another Internet poll that makes us look bunch of sad and repressed gobsheens.

* Quote from here

BKtje

Agreed Reefbreak and ty for clearing up what exactly an official language is

ReefBreak

Today's Irish Times has an excellent letter on the subject, some of which I've typed out:

The EU already supports Irish through it's minority language programs and the European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages, which has two main offices, in Brussels and Dublin. Irish is an equal and official language for primary documentation (such as Treaties), and any EU citizen has the right to address the European Courts in Irish. However, providing this service for MEPs and bureaucrats would serve no purpose.

honru

It makes a whole lot of sense now. Thanks ReefBreak for clearing that up, I really didn't know if the removal of Irish had any significance.

Töpher

Well said.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by f®eak s©enery
It makes a whole lot of sense now. Thanks ReefBreak for clearing that up, I really didn't know if the removal of Irish had any significance.

Glad to help. It was really getting on my nerves. Note that you can't remove anything that wasn't actually there in the first place.

honru

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Note that you can't remove anything that wasn't actually there in the first place.

Touchè. :cool:

Cake Fiend

Yet another example of morons getting up in arms about something they have no clue about.

I don't give a crap about the Irish language, but I haven't even expressed my own opinion on the subject (that it should probably not be bothered with) before because I haven't researched the subject well enough. Is it ironic that an uncultured heathen like myself has better sense than these people?

Add that to the fact that I've always though an online petition will carry about as much weight as the paper it's written on.

MrNuked

I'd like to sign a petition to abolish compulsory study of Irish after primary school. Is fuath liom Gaéilge!

BuffyBot

Finally someone speaking sense...

Dustaz

Originally posted by Sico
Yet another example of morons getting up in arms about something they have no clue about.

Precisely my thoughts. Ive seen the two pro-petition threads here, but havent had time to really get angry and reply to the idiots cos by the time i finish work they have dropped off the radar.

sceptre

Kudos ReefBreak - stop people making fools of themselves.

A three minute search on the web would have been enough to get info that the thing was, er, misguided

Elmo

I think that it is up to you to discide weather or not you sign such a petition.

Not this forum.

weather you like the Irish lanuage or not it is one of the offical lanuages of Ireland, Under our Consititution.

The main reason behind this petition is so that Irish becomes a working lanuage, so that the Lanuage can grow and develop.

We have not treated the lanuage well at all. Especially in the way that we teach it in schools but I think that this is a problem with most lanuages in Irish Schools.

Anyway, I will if I want, but I tend not to sign petitions anyway.

So in the case of Irish, every official EU document and and every official EU meeting would have to be translated into Irish. It was be a pointless waste of time and money

Sure they might as well just print them in english as most people speck english anyway.

Anyway I think that if the Government wanted the Irish lanuage to grow and develop they would do more, e.g. The Dept. of Gealteacht, Island etc. to be Decentralised to Irish speaking parts with a Minister that can speak the lanuage fluently, and that all the civil servants also speak the lanuage with in that Dept on a daily basis. Prehaps they already do.

Kudos ReefBreak - stop people making fools of themselves.

Yes that reminds me to set up a petition to stop people making a fool of themselves because you know I am no fool (Do you see the sarcasim in that sentence)

Anyway its up to you weather you sign anything or not.

simu

It's only an on-line petition! Since when has the government been worried about what ppl think (apart from before elections!).:)


The annoying thing about it is that there are many other, more practical things that could be done to support the language but instead, people get all worked up about this petition.

sceptre

Originally posted by Elmo
The main reason behind this petition is so that Irish becomes a working lanuage, so that the Lanuage can grow and develop.

No it isn't (did you read anything posted above?)

The main point of this petition is to stop irish being dropped as an official language (or working language) of the EU.

As people have pointed out, Irish has /never/ been either.

Hence the petition is trying to prevent something happening when it can't happen in any case. In its current incarnation it has no purpose for existing.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

(if it was trying to get Irish designated as an official or working language it would actually have a point for discussion)

dathi1

absolutely.....Ban it altogether....anything that represents Irish culture shouldn't be recognised also. Basque, Catalan and Irish should be banned. They sound too much like local indigenous languages and like reef said make us sound like gonbeens etc....and what's the best excuse to not have them recognised? They're not working languages. If we do this we will be recognised as a forward thinking, progressive nation and our Euro masters will smile upon this land of sterile, non descript lackey, quislings. Deutschland uber alles.

totally off subject: what happened to the PD "Ard Fheis" (apologies) promise of flying the national flag outside every school?

Meh

Originally posted by dathi1
absolutely.....Ban it altogether....anything that represents Irish culture shouldn't be recognised also. Basque, Catalan and Irish should be banned. They sound too much like local indigenous languages and like reef said make us sound like gonbeens etc....and what's the best excuse to not have them recognised? They're not working languages. If we do this we will be recognised as a forward thinking, progressive nation and our Euro masters will smile upon this land of sterile, non descript lackey, quislings. Deutschland uber alles.

Why don't you practice what you preach and provide a translation of your post into Irish? In fact, all posts on boards should be accompanied by a translation into our national language, and boards should be forced to employ official translators (damn the expense, this is our national culture we're talking about) to translate the posts of non-Irish-speakers.

It was hilarious to read that petition and see all the comments in English...

Typedef

I think it's important for the State to attempt to exponenciate the Irish language, no, matter how futile, one might find the results, in reality.

Do I think the EU should have Irish as an offical language.

Personally, so long as the EU, keeps it's nose out of Irish foreign, defence and taxation affairs and there is no more 'Federal' encrochment of the EU, into the workings of this soverign state, I couldn't care less what the EU does.

In the event the EU moves more Federal (aside from the fact, I'd be utterly opposed to further moves towards a Federal State), then yes, I believe this State should use any and all leverage it has, to promote it's culture and history to the fullest extent, no matter how futile some may think that is.

sceptre

Originally posted by dathi1
Basque... They sound too much like local indigenous languages...

They sou... They sound similar?

I'm highlighting Basque up there as it doesn't sound like any local language that I can think of (Spanish or French, pick one). And it doesn't have common roots with any language that most of us can name. Or perhaps any recent language at all.

They sound similar?

heh.

Elmo

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Well done use latin (another dead lanuage) to prove your point.


There is another petition that I think you should care more about and thats the Micheal Jackson petition WHAT A LOAD OF BULL.

www.petitiononline.com

sceptre

Originally posted by Elmo
Well done use latin (another dead lanuage) to prove your point.

Thanks. I used to be semi-fluent in both Latin and Welsh once upon a time in the distant past (just in written Latin obviously (and without any modern terms), though I wouldn't have had any truck with that sissy soft choo choo middle ages church latin). I didn't go crying into my milk every time someone said something nasty about either language either mind. I'm not going to do that now either.

by the way, QED doesn't prove my point, it states that the point has been proved. Subtle difference. I'd have put it in Irish but that would have been too ironic:).

The Beer Baron

Bit it is a dead language- more so than Basque, Catalan and Welsh the three ones that have been bandied about in here. Your average Welshman or Basque can speak their own language a hellova lot better than your average Irishman- or that's been my personal experience. And wherever you meet a Welshman, no matter where I travel, its a love of their native language that comes from a respect for their own cultural identity. It doesn't happen because we're forcefed it (I've been down this on the other thread). Basically Irish is dying out because we stifled it ourselves.

Kudos to Michael D, and to TG4 (who show great movies too from time to time) but in all fairness we're an English speaking nation, not an Irish one. The Saorstáit blew it. Even the language itself seems struggling, trying, for decades to assert itself as a modern language and failing. What we're taught in schools isn't really Irish anyways-not like you'd hear in the Gaeltacht. Go to Rosmuc or someplace like that- it's an alien language. And in the Gaeltacht it's dying too- I was in Ballyvourny a few years back- isn't that supposed to be a Gaeltacht? Didn't hear one person speaking it.

So should Irish be recognised by the EU as an official language. Not really. Maybe if we all learned to bloody well speak it (and I'm as guilty as anyone of that) and all of us together changed to Irish-speakers then with a large proportion of voters the EU might change its mind and it would be worth their while to adopt it but that ain't gonna happen- ever.

But I wonder- are the Welsh bitching? The Basques? I doubt it. Maybe some hardliner ETA sympathisers but their ranks are growing thinner by the day too.

bonkey

Originally posted by The Beer Baron
Bit it is a dead language

No, its not. Irish as a language is still evolving, which by definition is what makes a language "not dead".

jc

Yoda

This letter from Monday’s Irish Times is a bit more balanced than ReefBreak’s rant. It isn't a model of perfect argumentation, but it puts a bit of perspective into it. It's a pity that some Irish people don't like Irish, but that's their problem really. Whether this petition affects EU translation policy isn't necessarily the point, however. The fact that 53,000 people have seen fit to sign it does mean something, and Government should take note.

Madam –

It now seems likely that, from next May the EU will have twenty official languages and Irish, the oldest, and , some would say the richest of all European languages will not be included. In May, EU law will be amended to ~ insert Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Hungarian, Slovene and Maltese, which has circa 380,000 speakers, something similar to Irish.

This means that from May next, all official documents will be translated only into the twenty official languages and will not be available in Irish in Ireland.

Furthermore, whenever job opportunities arise within the EU they will be open to EU citizens who can speak two or more official languages, thereby putting Irish citizens ata disadvantage as, Irish will be disregarded.

For each new official language the EU will employ 110 new translators and 40 new interpreters. If Irish were included, such opportunities would also be open to, Irish people.

The funding for all this will come from. the EU translation, budget, which currently costs €2 per person and to which Ireland will be contributing in any event.

The EU is based on diversity of different cultures, which makes multi-lingualism essential to the European project. As the influence of the EU in our everyday lives grows, any language excluded from EU business will come under great pressure. and its future will be in doubt. It can be both realistic and practical to have Irish as an official EU language as EU institutions may stipulate in their rules of procedure which official languages are to be used in specific cases. In practice, the normal day-to-day working languages used, for example, in the European Commission are English, French and increasingly German.

Relay languages are used in the translation of languages of, small nations, for example Maltese is translated into English, and then to Slovene and vice-versa. Such an arrangement would, address the practical difficulties of translation for Irish.

Next month the Taoiseach, Mr Ahern, takes over the role of EU President. It is vital that he now considers the future role of the Irish language in Europe. - Yours, etc.,

MATT NOLAN
Ballagh
Mullingar
Co. Westmeath

simu

Bit it is a dead language- more so than Basque, Catalan and Welsh the three ones that have been bandied about in here.

There are people of all ages who have Irish as their first language in existance.

There are people who speak the language every day.

The language is changing - new slang, new words for technology etc, pronunciation is changing slightly.

People are writing novels, poetry, journalism etc in the language.

That's hardly a dead language. A minority language, yes. A dead language, no!

Your average Welshman or Basque can speak their own language a hellova lot better than your average Irishman- or that's been my personal experience.

Yes. There are a lot of Irish people who don't have a word of Irish but there are also people here who use it daily and speak it fluently.

It doesn't happen because we're forcefed it (I've been down this on the other thread). Basically Irish is dying out because we stifled it ourselves.

Your sole experience of Irish seems to be having been taught it (badly, I presume from your post) at school. It's a pity that it's not taught better in schools but on the other hand, many people have similarly bad experiences with French or Maths. There's a world of Irish out there that has nothing to do with the Irish spoonfed into kids at school. Just because Irish in many schools is quite dead does not mean the world of Irish outside school is so.

Even the language itself seems struggling, trying, for decades to assert itself as a modern language and failing.

Not really. I know people who lean IT, science, all sorts of subjects through Irish at uni and don't have problems with it. Irish words are found/coined for new technological terms - as with any other living language, sometimes they catch on or sometimes the speakers make their own version up. Also, modern Irish literarture is every bit as innovative and experimanta las any other language in terms of style.

What we're taught in schools isn't really Irish anyways-not like you'd hear in the Gaeltacht.

True - they should reform the school courses.

And in the Gaeltacht it's dying too- I was in Ballyvourny a few years back- isn't that supposed to be a Gaeltacht? Didn't hear one person speaking it.

The thing about the Gaeltacht is that there is not a wall around it keeping non-Irish speakers out. How can you tell the locals from tourists? Even if locals have Irish, if there is one person there who has no Irish, they will have to speak English or some other language. The Cork Gaeltacht is pretty small and can seem to get drowned by the English speakig world at times but there are Irish-speakers there, you just have to make an effort to find them and to speak Irish with them.

BuffyBot

The fact that 53,000 people have seen fit to sign it does mean something,

Well, I disagree - simply because I think a proportion of those people signed it in the hysteria of not knowing what exactly was not going on

Yoda

I don't think that ReefBreak's view gives a balanced vision of "exactly what is going on". No one is suggesting seriously that every single EU document be translated into Irish, nor that a simultaneous translator be available at every meeting. What is advocated is status for the language which it doesn't have, and which will be accorded to other minority languages. Ireland should have a progressive policy with regard to its first official language. 53,000 signatures is not insignificant in terms of support for such policy.

ReefBreak

Originally posted by Yoda
I don't think that ReefBreak's view gives a balanced vision of "exactly what is going on". No one is suggesting seriously that every single EU document be translated into Irish, nor that a simultaneous translator be available at every meeting. What is advocated is status for the language which it doesn't have, and which will be accorded to other minority languages. Ireland should have a progressive policy with regard to its first official language. 53,000 signatures is not insignificant in terms of support for such policy.

There are other more widely spoken languages which do not have Official Working Status - Welsh, Flemish, Basque and especially Catalan (10 million speakers). This is about practicalities - it just does not make financial or common sense to make Irish a Working Language in the EU. To repeat myself, it would be a waste of time and money, because the native tongue of the majority of Irish EU employees in Brussels is English, not Irish. And 100% of those that have Irish as their native language can speak English anyway.

In my opinion, Yoda's (et al) opinions represent a sort of mild Gaelic Gestapo which tries to push Irish into places where it's not needed, or serves no purpose..

BuffyBot

No one is suggesting seriously that every single EU document be translated into Irish

People are making out like something has changed, that Irish is being "abandoned" as if it had previously been an offical language of the EU. I've even heard chinese whispered versions stating that the EU is going to remove Irish as an offical language of Ireland etc - which of course are both untrue. God only knows what other versions are going around. Of course all these little spins on the truth sent people scurrying to sign the petition. That is why it isn't a trustworthy statistic.

bonkey

Originally posted by Yoda

No one is suggesting seriously that every single EU document be translated into Irish,

Is that not an actual requirement for an official working language?

Wouldn't that mean that the petition would be meant to be read as saying that we want Irish made an OWL, and we want the requirements for OWLs changed so that including Irish amongst them doesn't actually require it to be treated as one in practice.

Whats the point of wanting the language to be made an OWL if you don't expect the language to actually be treated as one, if not just through nothing but pure snobbery?

Of course, if I'm wrong, and all documents do not need to be translated into each and every OWL, then just ignore me

jc

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Is that not an actual requirement for an official working language?

you are mixing your terms there. Working languages are the core group of major languages into which everything is translated. Official languages are those recognised by the EU and will have only a few documents translated into it, but will get substantial (proportionately) cultural support.