A very important issue - Do NOT sign the "Save Irish" petition.

Yoda

What people want is for Irish to have the same status that Estonian and Maltese will – not less. Whatever the specifics of the petition, that's what people want.

earwicker

Originally posted by ReefBreak
In my opinion, Yoda's (et al) opinions represent a sort of mild Gaelic Gestapo which tries to push Irish into places where it's not needed, or serves no purpose..

Jaysus! Troll much?

segadreamcast

Originally posted by Yoda
What people want is for Irish to have the same status that Estonian and Maltese will – not less. Whatever the specifics of the petition, that's what people want.

A relatively small list of people which can't be verified, thus can't be trusted then? Oh yes.

Irish really shouldn't be recognised as a language - it's as simple as that.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Yoda
What people want is for Irish to have the same status that Estonian and Maltese will – not less. Whatever the specifics of the petition, that's what people want.

No. No. No.

People, in general, wouldn't have two clues as to the status of Estonian and Maltese in the EU (or Irish before this "problem" came to light).

People are following a herd, of which a goodly proportion were ill-informed as to what it was all about.

Matt Simis

Originally posted by Yoda
The fact that 53,000 people have seen fit to sign it does mean something, and Government should take note.

The petition email was forwarded to me by a non-Irish person, because they assumed I would be interested. The previous people in the emails appeared to be foreign as well. I would guess quite a number of those signatures came from people who aren't Irish but "sympathise" with the situation. IMO, that greatly undermines the validity of such a petition and those figures you proudly spout.


Matt

Gearoid

Irish really shouldn't be recognised as a language - it's as simple as that.

O i see, even though it is a living language with it's own arts, literture - hell it even has modern films. Go to the places where Irish is spoken-the Aran Islands for example and tell the people then that there language isn't worthy of official status in an EU which has just decided to cut grants for the construction of currachs that they depend for fishing and therefore there income. while these are two seperate issues i think if things like this go on people are going to be alienated and in fairness it is a form of discrimination, we are the only country in the EU that the official language of the country isn't a recognised EU language, whether you speak it or because you don't hear it spoken means you don't think it should is irrelevant it is a living language and the first official language of the state as shown in the constituition-a document approved by the people.

To the people who are orchaestrating this thread, it's obvious the only problem you had with Irish is you had a bad experience with it in school and see this as a chance to get back at what you consider to be a grave injustice to you(and it is and was school Irish is a joke and the curriculum needs to be changed) But in fairness if Irish is given its proper entitelment as an official EU language it's not going to be any skin off your noses, It'll give employment to more Irish people therefore bringing money into the country albeit small. It's not forcing anything on you and while it's grand to have your say on this and what you think should happen i think you're just spliting hairs over an old grudge you had with school, Irish is a great language the days of Peig are over, people's attitudes are changing towards it-look at the popularity of Hector and the Amu series so it's appropriate that it gets this status on an international stage to finally shake off the old badge of slaves image and to show it is a truely modern day language.

vorbis

Its sad really that believing that Irish shouldn't be an official working language is perceived as being somehow anti the language's existence. Irish is currently a minority language. A someone else stated, anyone who can speak irish can also speak english. Therefore why a need to translate official documents to Irish? In fairness the EU often gets criticised for bloat. The one time they do try to make streamline their processes, they get even more criticism!

daveirl

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Gearoid

That's economics. I know it's sad or what not but they have to modernise. No one would subsidise me to own a pony and trap to get to work so why should they get subsidised to have an outdated way of life?

You'd think that alright that by economics they should just move on but that really isn't it. The Currach is the most suited boat for Fishing around those areas, it has the manouverability and is cheap to repair etc, so really if u tell them to give up the currach you're making it a lot harder for them to fish and thus make a living trust me this is going against whats best for the people there. There way of life isn't outdated I stayed there 4 a while during the summer and believe they have everything SKY, convience foods etc- though I'll tell u they worked hard for it. you say they have an outdated way of life through fishing because of currachs? well what do u want them to do they have to live and where they are doesn't lend it's self to much else. You may as well tell them to move somewhere else. Economics isn't everything, people and their cultures mattered more and it's time everyone realised that.

In 1922! How many people who voted in 1922 are still alive? In 1922 you had to be at least 21 so the youngest people who are alive that voted in it are now over 100!

No it was written in 1937. Yes I hear you it's only 15 years later but fine then if people have such a problem with this then why didn't they lobby for a referendum on it? If u present a petition to the government with a certain amount of signatures(can't remember off top of my head) they have to hold a referendum. If you don't shout that you want something no one will know! what are they suppose to get rid of everything off the constituition thats over 20 years old?!!!

In fairness there is a lot more to it that that. I'm far more worried about wasting money than getting back at my Irish teachers.

Well from many of the posts you could be forgiven for thinking there was a personal bitterness there. As for efficient use of money well you don't have much power over that unless you work in the EU and as we're contributing enough we may as well get something back that is use to us as I said before at the end of the day People and culture is more important than economics-we're not all going to starve for the sake of a few leaflets printed.

Versus the cost of implementing it? I'd say it would run a loss!

Well we still have to pay the same amount into EU coffers anyway so it'll cost no more, you only have to supply enough for the Irish speaking population which is quite small. As someone pointed out people who speak Irish can also speak engish so all you have to do is give the Irish speakers Irish leaflets and english ones for English speakers!, So at the end of the day It's still the same amount of printing NO MORE THAN BEFORE!

The man speaks as much Spanish in the show as Irish!

Well it is a travel programme :rolleyes:

Gearoid

People, in general, wouldn't have two clues as to the status of Estonian and Maltese in the EU (or Irish before this "problem" came to light) People are following a herd, of which a goodly proportion were ill-informed as to what it was all about..

God I'm relieved at last someone who can speak for everyone and know what they think and why they do things without ever knowing them! :rolleyes:

Qadhafi

I think Irish should be a working language in the EU. Its our language, if its not widely used, people wont continue to speak it. Other Europeans wouldnt disregard their language like we do.

I can remember people saying GAA should just call it a day and we are only intrested in soccer. This isnt England and its only now that people are realising the value the GAA has contributed to the country.

In a few years Ireland is going to be a net contributor to the EU. We have already given something like €140bn to the EU (and have recieved €40 odd billion ) in fish stocks . If you dont think much of that, just go look at Galicia in the north of Spain etc and other places and how the whole region has prospered from it.

In light of all this giving, we have the right to have our own language used in brussels.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Gearoid
God I'm relieved at last someone who can speak for everyone and know what they think and why they do things without ever knowing them! :rolleyes:

Thank you, I do try

Of course you are just as talented....

To the people who are orchaestrating this thread, it's obvious the only problem you had with Irish is you had a bad experience with it in school

Actually I don't have any particularily bad experiences with the language, I was just crap at it (as I was at French too). I've every intention of trying to make up for it at a later stage. However, the point I'm making about this issue is that Irish never was a official language of the EU, and there is no reason for it to be. What I was trying to point out is that there is so much mis-information about this topic.

I said in an earlier post:

People are making out like something has changed, that Irish is being "abandoned" as if it had previously been an offical language of the EU. I've even heard chinese whispered versions stating that the EU is going to remove Irish as an offical language of Ireland etc - which of course are both untrue. God only knows what other versions are going around. Of course all these little spins on the truth sent people scurrying to sign the petition. That is why it isn't a trustworthy statistic.

With such mis-information about this issues involved, the results of this petition can hardly be called accurate.

daveirl

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Victor

Originally posted by Yoda
What people want is for Irish to have the same status that Estonian and Maltese will – not less. Whatever the specifics of the petition, that's what people want.

But it already has the same rights (well technically it has more as Estonia and Malta aren't members yet) and will be getting enhanced rights under the EU Constitution.

Originally posted by Gearoid
No it was written in 1937. Yes I hear you it's only 15 years later but fine then if people have such a problem with this then why didn't they lobby for a referendum on it? If u present a petition to the government with a certain amount of signatures(can't remember off top of my head) they have to hold a referendum. If you don't shout that you want something no one will know! what are they suppose to get rid of everything off the constituition thats over 20 years old?!!!

I understand the 1937 constitution was an almost verbatim reworking of the Freestate constitution and was amended largely as a result of the royal abdication debacle. So in effect it was written in 1922 or whenever.

sceptre

Originally posted by Victor
I understand the 1937 constitution was an almost verbatim reworking of the Freestate constitution and was amended largely as a result of the royal abdication debacle. So in effect it was written in 1922 or whenever.

There are similarities, granted. Plenty of differences too. Have a butchers (constitution is listed in full under schedule 1 of the Act & followed by the treaty in schedule 2). The language provisions are almost identical though.

Gearoid

I understand the 1937 constitution was an almost verbatim reworking of the Freestate constitution and was amended largely as a result of the royal abdication debacle. So in effect it was written in 1922 or whenever.

Well it still stands that no matter when it was written it is still accepted by the people if they thought it was too old or that they disagreed with it's content they could have and still can do something about it.

So why did you use it as an example of a popular Irish language program. As you've admitted it's a travel program with an Irish title and some of it is in Irish. It's hardly the shining example of the Irish language becoming strong.

LOL, don't think you paid much attention there dave, it's the fact that the programme is being watched by a fairly wide audience that shows the language is losing the negative attitude towards it. If people were really negative towards the language they wouldn't watch it it's that simple - would you watch something you hated. Don't disagree just for the sake of disagreeing here.

What do you mean if it's not widely used. It's not widely used. Do you seriously think people will start speaking Irish because the EU recognises it?

Well this really isn't my question to answer but I'd like to throw in that the badge of being an official language WOULD do a lot for the language, help throw off the idea that it's some peasant pataois for bogmen which it clearly isn't. It would make a lot more people have respect for it for one thing.

Thank you, I do try
Of course you are just as talented....

Aye I'm talented but I speak only for myself unless asked otherwise.

sanvean

I would love to know how Catalan was left out of the official working languages. 10 million speakers and - in Catalonia - a nearly 100% of people speaking (and that's despite the settlers Franco sent in from the rest of Spain to 'stabilise' it, and the general anti-Catalan practices and acts) and yet it's left out. Very odd.

Then we have people up in arms because a language spoken by something well under 5% (em, not so good at maths, but something like that) of the population being left out.

Gearoid

The reason that there is fuss and rightly so is that all other member states have their official languages as EU official languages too, Irish is the first official language in the Republic of Ireland yet not an official language of the EU. Whether you agree it should be or not it, should be one if you think equality is important - our language shouldn't be the one left out, simple as that.

Sand

Its not *our* language. I dont speak it, and never have had to since the kulturkampf inspired secondary school system. Im no less Irish for it, no more than Australians are any less Australian because they speak English. Its not a matter of national pride - its status in the constitution is just a throwback. Making it an "official" language of the EU is just creating paperwork and bureacracy - I think the EU government has enough of that already without translating documents into obscure, dead languages for no one to read because English is far more accessible. Whether you agree with it or not, if you believe in common sense then youll agree that the costs associated are utterly wasteful and even immoral when there are kids dying in hospitals for want of better funding. What about the children?

Note: No one is stopping anyone from speaking the language. If you want to walk into Brussels and only converse in Irish you absolutely can. Fire away. Im am absolutely delighted for you and hope you and your friends go on speaking Irish for ever and ever. But please dont repeat the mistake of the education system. Forcing people to use a dead language doesnt mean the language is healthy.

simu

Im am absolutely delighted for you and hope you and your friends go on speaking Irish for ever and ever. But please dont repeat the mistake of the education system. Forcing people to use a dead language doesnt mean the language is healthy.

What's your definition of dead? You appear to contradict yourself above.

daveirl

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simu

Dead in Sand's view is hardly any active speakers which is a factual observation.

It's a subjective observation. If you spend time in Gaeltachtaí or amongst ppl who speak Irish, things will appear differently.

MrPinK

Originally posted by Gearoid
The reason that there is fuss and rightly so is that all other member states have their official languages as EU official languages too, Irish is the first official language in the Republic of Ireland yet not an official language of the EU. Whether you agree it should be or not it, should be one if you think equality is important - our language shouldn't be the one left out, simple as that.

How many other countries have a second official language included that isn't already there as another country's primary language? Ireland is being being treated no differently than anyone else. I'd agree with you that whether or not Irish should be an offical language is beside the point though. In realistic terms it's a minority language. I think it'd be great if most ppl spoke it, but they don't. Making minority languages offical working languages would just add more needless bureaucracy, which the EU certainly doesn't need.

Gearoid

I'd agree with you that whether or not Irish should be an offical language is beside the point though.

You misinterpreted my point, what I said was that if people support equality then they surely can't say that Irish should be the only first state language to be excluded from the EU official languages.

Ireland is being being treated no differently than anyone else.

How can you say that? Sure we're the only country whose language is not official.

Sand

It's a subjective observation. If you spend time in Gaeltachtaí or amongst ppl who speak Irish, things will appear differently.

Of course if you were to ask how often is Irish spoken by people in the Gaeltacht then of course youd get a much higher frequency of use than you would if you were to ask how often is Irish spoken by people in Ireland. It is after all what defines the gaeltacht regions and entitles them to their tasty feelgood handouts. The language is dead as feck all speak it, and those who do are subsidised heavily for their "impediment" by the government or are forced to by our primary and secondary school system.

There is no common sense argument for the costs of carrying out the translation work. No ones going to read them because pretty much 99.99999% of Irish speakers speak English fluently. Its not a blow to Irelands national pride, its a blow to the pride of the enthusiasts of a dead language. The E.U. needs to avoid going the route of the U.N. and cut down on the feel good meaningless stuff like having 436 official working languages just so no ethnic or regional identity is offended that its language or dialect has been dissed. If the E.U. is going to advance beyond its present state it needs to be worrying more about how its going to reform itself and make itself directly accountable to the people rather than minor details like Irish not being made an official working language.

MrPinK

Originally posted by Gearoid
You misinterpreted my point, what I said was that if people support equality then they surely can't say that Irish should be the only first state language to be excluded from the EU official languages

It's not. The official languages of Luxembourg are Luxembourgian, French, and German. Luxembougian is spoken by over half the population but it's not included. Why? Because French and German are already included.

How can you say that? Sure we're the only country whose language is not official

The whole point of having official working languages is not to promote the use of certain languages, that's for governments to do. Their sole purpose is to conduct offical EU business effectiently, so you want to use the minimum number of languages you can. Therefore you include the most spoken language for each country and not all the official languages for each country. If Irish was more spoken than English in this country then it would be made an official working language. Sadly, it's not.

simu

We'll have to contribute financially to the translation fund, anyway. We might as well include Irish and create jobs for Irish people. More info here

The language is dead as feck all speak it, and those who do are subsidised heavily for their "impediment" by the government or are forced to by our primary and secondary school system.

They are? I've spoken Irish all my life and I've never got a penny for it. There is some scheme in Gaeltachtaí, all right, where *if* you're willing to have a total stranger come into your house and test your kids' language abilities, you get a small some of money. Wow, maybe if that's abolished, ireland will get to pay off all its debts and have balanced budgets forever. Must get mcCreevy on the phone about that.

No matter that you think it's an "impediment", there are people who speak it, it's the first national language and it's one of the things that are keeping this country from becoming a shoddy, third-rate version of England. Get over it!

There is no common sense argument for the costs of carrying out the translation work. No ones going to read them because pretty much 99.99999% of Irish speakers speak English fluently. Its not a blow to Irelands national pride, its a blow to the pride of the enthusiasts of a dead language. The E.U. needs to avoid going the route of the U.N. and cut down on the feel good meaningless stuff like having 436 official working languages just so no ethnic or regional identity is offended that its language or dialect has been dissed. If the E.U. is going to advance beyond its present state it needs to be worrying more about how its going to reform itself and make itself directly accountable to the people rather than minor details like Irish not being made an official working language.

It's just a translation bureau. The money has already been set aside for it and adding one more language wouldn't take that much money at all. It is, as you say, a minor issue - it's not as if employing a couple of Irish speakers to translate a few documents will put an end to European cooperation.

daveirl

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BuffyBot

It's just a translation bureau. The money has already been set aside for it and adding one more language wouldn't take that much money at all.

Well no - if we included every dialect in the EU, it would cost a lot more!

sceptre

Originally posted by sanvean
I would love to know how Catalan was left out of the official working languages. 10 million speakers and - in Catalonia - a nearly 100% of people speaking (and that's despite the settlers Franco sent in from the rest of Spain to 'stabilise' it, and the general anti-Catalan practices and acts) and yet it's left out. Very odd.

Odd indeed. The answer is that the Spanish government never asked for it to be included. Yes, basically that's all it takes. Spanish government phone Brussels in the morning, say "we want Catalan to be an official language as people speak it within our borders. Yes, we'll pay for the translators including those with legal training, send us the bill. Yes, we'll supply translators including those with legal training, we'll fax you a list of CVs in the morning". Job done.