A very important issue - Do NOT sign the "Save Irish" petition.

Sand

Wow, maybe if that's abolished, ireland will get to pay off all its debts and have balanced budgets forever. Must get mcCreevy on the phone about that.

Hmmm.... Do I justify why we should stop the subsidy or should you justify why McCreevy is paying people to speak a live and growing language thats spoken by so many people daily anyway? Chicken or the egg, chicken or the egg.

No matter that you think it's an "impediment", there are people who speak it, it's the first national language and it's one of the things that are keeping this country from becoming a shoddy, third-rate version of England. Get over it!

I dont think its an impediment - hence the " ". McCreevy must do because hes paying people for speaking it, much like youd pay people who cant find a job or who are retired and are enjoying the 10 or 15 years they have left in our wonderful health system.

As for the shoddy. third rate version of England comment...Is everything Irish defined as being not English? I dont speak Irish, I never liked the language, I learned enough to get past the exams and then I happily drank to the fact Id never have to speak the shagging thing again - And I havent. Are you saying Im more or less Irish than you because I dont speak it and you do? Assuming you consider yourself more Irish than non-Irish speakers ( which is consistent with your shoddy, third rate england view ) then would you consider the Gaelic identity as being the Irish identity and excluding all other identites from our definition of Irish - or at least keeping them to the back where they cant embarrass us?

On the other hand if you were to say were as Irish as each other then whats your point about people speaking Irish being one of the few things that keep Ireland from being a shoddy, third rate England?

Get over it!

Lets not fall out over it.

It's just a translation bureau. The money has already been set aside for it and adding one more language wouldn't take that much money at all. It is, as you say, a minor issue - it's not as if employing a couple of Irish speakers to translate a few documents will put an end to European cooperation.

It just costs money. Money is real. Money has an opportunity cost. When you spend it hiring a translation bureau and their office space and all theyll need to do the job and so on you cant spend it doing anything else. That money could be used to buy blankets for the dying leper children of calcutta so they can at least die with some warmth in their bodies. On the other hand it could be used to buy cluster bombs to drop on those self same kids. Now there are lobby groups for both of the above, and obviously there is a lobby group for the Irish language. Sadly at the end of the day, given the way of the world the money will go to whoever can put the most convincing spin on things rather than the cause which is worthiest. Which is why Irish, being the pride of a few thousand fluent speakers, stands a chance in hell of getting that cash against the poor and starving children of Calcutta.

Gearoid

On the other hand if you were to say were as Irish as each other then whats your point about people speaking Irish being one of the few things that keep Ireland from being a shoddy, third rate England?

Well, In my opinion we're all Irish once we're born in Ireland (the Island - Republic and all), but there is such a thing as being culturally Irish, Look at the the loyalists in the 6 counties there born in Ireland and therefore Irish- but they see themselves as British they're loyal to the crown and have certain traditions different to the rest of the population here. They see themselves cuturally as being British. Now I can see where the shoddy, third rate England thing is coming from-though I don't think it's exclusively England Its England and America(especially) that have this manufactured culture a lifestyle even thats being pedalled to ppl (Macdonalds, etc) Now I don't agree with that because tbh it's very superficial and neither here nor there, However I don't think we just become Gaelic purists either but I think the most desirable way we can go is to maintain the strongest foundations of our nationality, one and probably the most important of all is our language, this above all sets us apart from all other countries, through a bilingual Ireland (and I mean a proper one like Canada) we could have a healthy native culture while still being able to participate in popular culture without being drowned out by it and becoming a country that just latches on to the next "cool" thing that comes from the Anglo-American world if we turn out like that we'll be as shallow as the the lifestyle they try to sell us. If you don't know where you've come from it's very hard to know where you're going.

kano476

through a bilingual Ireland (and I mean a proper one like Canada) we could have a healthy native culture while still being able to participate in popular culture without being drowned out by it and becoming a country that just latches on to the next "cool" thing that comes from the Anglo-American world if we turn out like that we'll be as shallow as the the lifestyle they try to sell us. If you don't know where you've come from it's very hard to know where you're going.

very well put. From my point of view I find it sad that we are increasingly losing our culture and becoming more and more like britain and america. I think its important that we maintain our native tongue in whatever shape or form possible, but lets face it, petitions like the one mentioned aren't going to work because you can't push a dying and obscure language on a population that maybe 85% of can't string a sentence together in.
Irish is taught in a very old fashioned and very dull way, hence giving it a bad rep. But it is our heritage and we seriously have to think of a way to hold on to it in some way before it completely dies out. maybe this isn't possible and maybe most people in this country want to move on and forget about irish.
Our culture is what makes us different to britain and america, and I would sooner move to another country then see ireland become like them, which unfortunately is what is happening. No other country in the world is like Ireland and thats the way it should stay.

Yoda

Irish isn't dying out. Every year more Gaelscoileanna are created. Parents who don't speak Irish are sending their kids there not only because of the Irish, but because the teachers tend to be more highly motivated. We have an television station that broadcasts Irish-language content, some of which is creative and interesting and worth watching. (Most of what's on every channel is crap of course.)

It is a shame that a couple of generations were taught bad Irish by bad teachers. But that doesn't mean that Irish is worthless, any more than Danish or Estonian are. And Danes and Estonians, lots of them, use their own language as well as English, and are the richer for it.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Gearoid

Could you have picked a poorer example? Canada is like a few countries stuck together. Montreal isn't that English orientated and Toronto isn't exactly Paris. In fact since Quebec almost voted for independence am I to take it that you'd be in favour of polarising the Irish speakers and non Irish speakers in the country even further? Although I quite like the idea of independence for the Gaeltachtaí. Should save the tax payer a bit of money.

:rolleyes: Ireland is like a few countries stuck together man!, It's the most bloody parochial place on earth you'll never get away from that, so could YOU"RE example of Canada been any poorer?. I don't think Irish speakers in general and Non Irish speakers in general were ever polarised, except maybe for the extremeists of either side and well extremists will always be there-on either side. Save the taxpayer a bit of money? you'd be the tightest Finance minister in the history! without the bit of assistance the Gaeltachts are getting there'd probably be emigration and poverty again, it's the governments job to look after it's citizens among other things.

Cork

Out in the continant - People can be multi-lingual?

Have the Irish even heard of this concept?

Why can't we have a number of languages?

How much Irish is spoken on Radio 1 or 2fm?

How about RTE1 or Network2?

These are surposed to be public service broadcasters?

Why can't you go into a public office and speak to somebody thru Irish?

Why do kids come out of school after 14 years with very little Irish?

(Sorry for the lack of answers)

BuffyBot

How much Irish is spoken on Radio 1 or 2fm?

How about RTE1 or Network2?

Not much, but then again a full TV station and radio channel are provided to cater to an audience that would sink without a trace in a fully commercial environment due to not having an audience base to support them.

Cork

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Not much, but then again a full TV station and radio channel are provided to cater to an audience that would sink without a trace in a fully commercial environment due to not having an audience base to support them.

As would RTE.

But why does RTE radio & TV pretty much ignore the language?

Why is Joe Duffy, Gerry Ryan etc accepted as public service broadcasting and what % of airtime on these stations is bi-linguial or in Irish?

RTE has some programmes like "Nuacht" & "Leargas" - but why is Irish not used more on these stations.

We have TG4 and Rnag - but surely both languages should be used on RTE.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


RTE has some programmes like "Nuacht" & "Leargas" - but why is Irish not used more on these stations.

Because you can't get subtitles on radio.

Cork

Well It is about time we had digital radio then.

Gearoid

It is a big pity and something that amazes me that after 14 years like you said that ppl can't say a whole lot in Irish, I think thought that the main reason is that too much emphasis is placed on reading & writing and not nearly enough on oral and aural work. Like any language the most important part is speaking Irish and the Primary schools don't focus on that to the extent they should.

simu

Are you saying Im more or less Irish than you because I dont speak it and you do? Assuming you consider yourself more Irish than non-Irish speakers ( which is consistent with your shoddy, third rate england view ) then would you consider the Gaelic identity as being the Irish identity and excluding all other identites from our definition of Irish - or at least keeping them to the back where they cant embarrass us?

No, I'm not saying anybody is more Irish than anybody else but there are certain elements of Irish culture that are unique - music, the Irish language, customs, sports, drama etc that you don't have in other countries (apart from ampngst ppl of Irish descent). Obviously, nobody can be involved in *all* of these but I think it's a good thing that there are ppl involved in some of them, at least.

I already mentined this in the Irish forum (guess you wouldn't have understood, though:)) - I think there are better ways that the language could be supported but I'm in favour this petition mostly because something is better than nothing, Irish speakers have been campaigning for decades to get basic recognition for the language with little success - see the fiasco surrounding the Irish Language Bill.

McCreevy is paying people to speak a live and growing language thats spoken by so many people daily anyway?

The subsidy is bulls*t anyway - nobody speaks Irish just to get a few measly euro a year. It's another example of shoddy management in this country. There are far more effective ways in which this money could be used to support the language but it won't happen because this country is run by morons.

Sand

Well, In my opinion we're all Irish once we're born in Ireland (the Island - Republic and all), but there is such a thing as being culturally Irish,

What if the Irish culture has moved on from being the Gaelic culture? The majority of Irish people are not fluent in Irish to put it generously. Irish is *rarely* spoken outside the Gaeltacht, practically by definition. If anything, the Gaeltacht is the region which is not culturally Irish. The Irish culture happily shares allegiances between the county GAA team and Man United, Liverpool, Arsenal or more recently Chelsea. The Irish culture laps ups Only Fools and Horses, Fawlty Towers and The Simpsons ( and of course Father Ted ). The Irish culture is drenched with The Sun and The Mirror and so on. Thats the Irish culture as it stands today. A century after the Gaelic Leaguers attempted their kulturkamf the situation is much as it ever was - if not worse.

Look at the the loyalists in the 6 counties there born in Ireland and therefore Irish- but they see themselves as British they're loyal to the crown and have certain traditions different to the rest of the population here. They see themselves cuturally as being British.

They are Irish but they dont identify with the Gaelic culture - thats understandable in that its not their culture. I am also Irish, and I also dont identify with the Gaelic culture - as noted above, most Irish people have more in common with the Loyalists culture than they do with the Gaelic leaguers once you take out the flags and ****e - but unfortunately despite being Irish and being in the cultural majority our national guilty conscience over the fact that were not dancing at the crossroads means I had to learn just enough Irish to pass my leaving cert - an exercise as pointless as learning anceint latin.

However I don't think we just become Gaelic purists either but I think the most desirable way we can go is to maintain the strongest foundations of our nationality, one and probably the most important of all is our language, this above all sets us apart from all other countries,

I dont agree tbh. Look at the Aussies, they have a strong cultural identity - admittedly based around the bush man/rugger bugger stereotype which most of them have little to do with Id imagine - despite speaking English. The Irish have maintained a strong identity as well, despite ( not because of) how many Irish people actually speak Irish.

But it is our heritage and we seriously have to think of a way to hold on to it in some way before it completely dies out.

So is emmigration, getting turfed out of farms by landlords and hating English people. Thats all hopefully is where it belongs - way back in history. Why try to dig up the corpse of the Irish language and attach it to strings so you can dance it around and say "Hey look, its not dead!"?

Irish isn't dying out. Every year more Gaelscoileanna are created.

Great - so why all the handouts for speaking the language. I dont get any handouts for speaking English. I dont see any requirements on the public broadcasters to assign a certain minimum amount of airtime to english. Of course they dont have to because English is actually a live language in common usage. Whereas Irish.....

Out in the continant - People can be multi-lingual?

Yop - I was highly impressed in the Netherlands with a checkout girl who was chatting with the man in front of me in German, to me in English and as I was leaving was talking to the next customer in French. And I reckon we Irish are heavily handicapped in that we only speak English really, that our education system wastes so much time and resources on Irish and that at the end of the day unlike the Dutch we dont get a whole lot of opportunity to practice our French or German or even Spanish ( English being the Lingua Franca of popular culture and indeed the internet it doesnt need to be said they get opportunities to practice it ).

MrPinK

Originally posted by simu
I think there are better ways that the language could be supported but I'm in favour this petition mostly because something is better than nothing

This is nothing though, it does not promote or help the Irish language in any way. Nor should it. That's our government's job and not the EU's (although they do have a European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages to promote their usage). Agreed, the government are doing a piss poor job of it, but that does not mean that the EU should have to give us special treatment to make up for this.

simu

Great - so why all the handouts for speaking the language. I dont get any handouts for speaking English.

So, where do you get these hand-outs anyway? I speak Irish and I wouldn't mind a few quid for the new year...:)

BuffyBot

As would RTE.

Unlikely. It would still survive (albeit in a much more scaled back level - similar to TV3)

But why does RTE radio & TV pretty much ignore the language?

Because it is catered for on dedicated channels! It doesn't need to be on the main stations, whom are catering for the majority - English speaking people!

We have TG4 and Rnag - but surely both languages should be used on RTE.

No no no - already catered for on dedicated stations, well (if not over) proportioned to the amount of people who speak the language! - how much more could people want!

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Gael

Over 63100 signatures now.

Cork

Originally posted by Sand


Yop - I was highly impressed in the Netherlands with a checkout girl who was chatting with the man in front of me in German, to me in English and as I was leaving was talking to the next customer in French. And I reckon we Irish are heavily handicapped in that we only speak English really, that our education system wastes so much time and resources on Irish and that at the end of the day unlike the Dutch we dont get a whole lot of opportunity to practice our French or German or even Spanish ( English being the Lingua Franca of popular culture and indeed the internet it doesnt need to be said they get opportunities to practice it ).

Our education system has failed the language. There is still massive interest in the language with many (including myself) learning it.

But why is being multi Linguial not promoted? Why after leaving school - do Irish prople cast languages aside?

Being Multi Lingual should not be a burdan.

simu

Our education system has failed the language.

True - and other languages as well. The curricula seem to be designed by people who have no knowledge of linguistics and how language is acquired.

For example, my sister, who is in primary school, gets sentences in Irish to read and learn every night. Luckily for her, she can already speak Irish so it's not too hard but there's no way any child is going to learn to speak a language by doing such excercises. It's far more effective teaching kids languages through playing, singing and so on.

Yop - I was highly impressed in the Netherlands with a checkout girl who was chatting with the man in front of me in German, to me in English and as I was leaving was talking to the next customer in French.

Unfortunately, in this country, people who have these jobs are not respected and they often have little pride in their work. (I know it's not very well paid but most people have to take on unpleasant jobs at some stage of their lives and it makes it a lot easy if you can keep the customers happy). It's unlikely that managers of shops and hotels would bother encouraging thier staff to learn the basics of another language to communicate with tourists. Plus, there is the assumption that everybody speaks English which is simply untrue. Depressingly though, you even get this attitude amongst certain students studying languages at uni - French, German, Irish or whatever is just something they learn for exams and they don't bother using their languages in the real world.

Sand

No, I'm not saying anybody is more Irish than anybody else but there are certain elements of Irish culture that are unique - music, the Irish language, customs, sports, drama etc that you don't have in other countries (apart from ampngst ppl of Irish descent). Obviously, nobody can be involved in *all* of these but I think it's a good thing that there are ppl involved in some of them, at least.

But why then is the Irish language mandatory in the Irish education system? Why arent we forced to play Gaelic football and be good enough at it to pass our leaving cert? Or be able to do a passable impersenation of the Wolfe Tones? The truth is we dont have to be forced to do those things which are part of our culture or way of life, things we might do ordinairily - we do have to be forced to do those things which are foreign to us. Were forced to learn Irish, because it is foreign to us - scandalous to say but its true, I like most Irish people am Irish, not Gaelic. You might make Chinese one of the national languages of Ireland and youd probably have more success at getting it used outside the Gaeltacht than the Gaelic language. The people who argue that because Irish is one of the official languages of Ireland we should all know it must accept that if I was to somehow make Chinese one of the official languages tommorrow then they would all be obliged to learn it - despite the fact it has no connection to them at all. The same is true of the Irish language and the majority of Irish people.

think there are better ways that the language could be supported but I'm in favour this petition mostly because something is better than nothing,

This is meanginless though. It will not for a second change the reality that the vast majority of Irish people speak English as their first tongue and Irish as a very distant second, if even that. Even if you are successful in getting E.U. treaties drawn up in Irish, the Irish will most likely read the English version anyway as that is their native language. The Irish education systems kulturkamf cant change the fact that the language of the Irish is English. T na G cant change the fact that the language of the Irish is English. The demand on all servants of the state that they speak Irish cant change the fact that the language of the Irish is English. The petition to make Irish an official language of the E.U. cant change the fact that the language of the Irish is English.

Its just pointless and costly to boot - the first politician or political party to have the balls to stand up and state the truth that the Irish language is dead and buried and we shouldnt waste any more time or money on it will get my vote, irrespective of their other polices even if they include collectivisation and anyone earning over 25k a year being sent to the gulags for not being working class.

The subsidy is bulls*t anyway - nobody speaks Irish just to get a few measly euro a year. It's another example of shoddy management in this country. There are far more effective ways in which this money could be used to support the language but it won't happen because this country is run by morons.

Good, lets pull the subsidies for it and T na g then ( oh and RTE1 and network 2 while were at it ). Being a live and growing language consumer demand should be enough to support Irish language programming.

Unfortunately, in this country, people who have these jobs are not respected and they often have little pride in their work. (I know it's not very well paid but most people have to take on unpleasant jobs at some stage of their lives and it makes it a lot easy if you can keep the customers happy). It's unlikely that managers of shops and hotels would bother encouraging thier staff to learn the basics of another language to communicate with tourists.

My own impression of the Dutch wasnt that they were learning these langues to communicate with tourists but that given the proximity of Germany and France that such languages were actually useful to know and could be put into everyday use when Germans or French drop by. Thats not the case with Irish because the Irish dont speak Irish.

As for the job itself - tell me about it, I used to work in a supermarket during college. Customers are scum.

Plus, there is the assumption that everybody speaks English which is simply untrue. Depressingly though, you even get this attitude amongst certain students studying languages at uni - French, German, Irish or whatever is just something they learn for exams and they don't bother using their languages in the real world.

It clearly would be untrue to say *everyone* speaks English, but English is certainly the international language of the modern era. A Chinese man and a Dutch man mightnt know eithers languages but theres a decent chance they both know enough English to communicate. A slightly odd fact I picked up from the coverage of the recent Iraqi war is that about 20% of Iraqis speak good English. We Irish are lucky that we are English speaking in such a world.

Our education system has failed the language. There is still massive interest in the language with many (including myself) learning it.

Our educational system hasnt failed the language - it was just asked a near impossible task - to alter reality, turn back the clock to the late 1500s when Irish was commonly used outside the Pale - over 400 years ago. Irish might be nice to know as a hobby, and I wish all those hobbyists the best, but in terms of education it is better to know French, German or Spanish and all that time wasted on Irish should be spent on useful languages. Irish died out because it wasnt useful to know. Nothings changed in the 5 centuries since.

Being Multi Lingual should not be a burdan.

You cant pass a law to make people multi lingual. Either languages are spoken commonly and thus are useful to know or they arent. Irish is not spoken commonly in Ireland and is thus not useful to know as you can communicate with anyone in Ireland in English.

Gearoid

Well Sand I've got to hand it to you you can speak with such authority on the matters of the world but look so far out into this world of yours that you don't even have a clue about your own country:rolleyes:

the Irish will most likely read the English version anyway as that is their native language.
The Irish education systems kulturkamf cant change the fact that the language of the Irish is English.

Thats not the case with Irish because the Irish dont speak Irish.
Irish is not spoken commonly in Ireland

Putting it simply, you're out of touch, there are whole areas in the country which are Irish speaking, with Irish speakers to which Irish is there first language. There are people even living outside the Gaeltacht who speak Irish as their first language in the family and even outside it etc. But obviously when you took the mandate to speak for these people, to say that they didn't need any information or documentation in Irish you didn't even know they existed or that maybe even Sand that they wouldn't think you know best! :eek:
If you took the time to look outside your own little world and research a little about the rest of this country that you live in you might be suprised how wrong you are.

Its just pointless and costly to boot - the first politician or political party to have the balls to stand up and state the truth that the Irish language is dead and buried and we shouldnt waste any more time or money on it will get my vote, irrespective of their other polices even if they include collectivisation and anyone earning over 25k a year being sent to the gulags for not being working class.

:rolleyes: , This amazing politican of yours would probably be even more out of touch than you. If the Irish language was dead there would be No Gaeltachts, No Irish speakers, no support for the language.
Your wet dream of a politican has the idealism of Turkey to be honest. The whole reason that people support this move for Irish as an official EU language is because they have Idealism, they have a vision of an Ireland that isn't an Anglo-American yobbish culture of MacDonalds and all the rest of it. They have a vision of an Ireland that has proper meaning, that knows where it's come from and knows where it's going and has brought the best bits of where its come from with it into modern times while still being able to grow and enjoy all the newer things and imports in Culture while having a soul of it's own.

BuffyBot

they have a vision of an Ireland that isn't an Anglo-American yobbish culture of MacDonalds and all the rest of it.

That's nice for them. Unfortunately (or thankfully, depending on your point of view) the majority don't share that vision.

Yoda

Tús maith, leath na hoibre.

Sand

Putting it simply, you're out of touch, there are whole areas in the country which are Irish speaking, with Irish speakers to which Irish is there first language.

I dont think so. These speakers dont constitue a majority or even a base from which the language can survive without massive bias in the education and public service, even T na G which afaik was brought about to meet the huge demand for Irish speaking TV is now merely mostly Irish speaking - if even that. Like most people in the country Ive not watched it that often. The idea that Irish is so many peoples first language contradicts the fact that I *had* to take it for the leaving cert. No choice. I could drop French if I wanted. But I *couldnt* drop Irish - Hell, in my parents time If you failed Irish you failed the entire leaving cert regardless of your other results. Thats a language on life support waiting for someone to pull the plug, not a language thats in common usage.

Be honest - If Irish was the language of Ireland then it would be an official language - it wouldnt be up for debate. But it isnt, and some face saving petition on the part of hobbyists isnt going to change that.

If you took the time to look outside your own little world and research a little about the rest of this country that you live in you might be suprised how wrong you are.

Ive never heard Irish used outside an educational facility in this country. Ever. Ive heard Russian used more often in daily life.

If the Irish language was dead there would be No Gaeltachts, No Irish speakers, no support for the language.

See above about life support. The Gaelic leaguers have succeeded in throwing a massive guilt trip on the country for not being Gaelic enough. Thats the root cause for all the support for the language. The Gaeltachts? Theyve hardly been growing over the years - I actually remeber hearing concern from the people living there that the Gaeltachts would die out over the next few decades altogether. As for the Irish speakers ...... they seem to be an endangered species from my experience.

The whole reason that people support this move for Irish as an official EU language is because they have Idealism, they have a vision of an Ireland that isn't an Anglo-American yobbish culture of MacDonalds and all the rest of it.

An Ireland dancing at the crossroads, dressed in tweed with arran caps, a country of the priest and the scholar - Ireland has heard all this before. You cant have a government engineer a culture - attempts to do so are futile and less than wholesome - my use of the term kulturkamf isnt coincidental. Ireland is not Gaelic. Gaelic and Ireland were one and the same centuries ago but not anymore - certain aspects of the Gaelic culture weve held onto, but the language wasnt one of them. Thats not a tragedy - its just the way history turned out. Passing a few laws with wishful thinking in the driving seat wont change anything. The whole E.U. official language thing is just an attempt to inflict the guilt trip about us not being Gaelic enough onto the E.U.

Like I said, the politician who has the balls to confront that nonsense has my vote.

simu

The idea that Irish is so many peoples first language contradicts the fact that I *had* to take it for the leaving cert. No choice. I could drop French if I wanted. But I *couldnt* drop Irish - Hell, in my parents time If you failed Irish you failed the entire leaving cert regardless of your other results. Thats a language on life support waiting for someone to pull the plug, not a language thats in common usage.

You had to take it for Leaving Cert because it's part of a curriculum devised by people in the Dept. of Education. You can't drop Maths or English either. Maybe you think they should teach more practical stuff at secondary school but that isn't what it's about - it's a test to see how well you can assimilate information, used to choose who gets to go to uni or not. That's all. If you're that determined to get to uni, learning a few bits of Irish to do so won't kill you. Neither will learning off sonnets by Shakespeare or theorems a non-mathematician is never likely to use again.

The Irish language is not dependant on ppl who do it for leaving cert! It's a well-known fact most LC students have a pretty low standard of Irish overall. Do you think ppl in the Gaeltacht give a damn about LC Irish students. Do you think, if the failure rate of LC Irish went above 50%, they'd suddenly decide to stop speaking Irish?

Be honest - If Irish was the language of Ireland then it would be an official language - it wouldnt be up for debate. But it isnt,

It's not the language of everyone in Ireland but there is an Irish-speaking minority and they want recognition to be given to their language. That is all.

Ive never heard Irish used outside an educational facility in this country.

QED? What does that prove? You just haven't been in the right places!

See above about life support. The Gaelic leaguers have succeeded in throwing a massive guilt trip on the country for not being Gaelic enough.

If you look at the Gaelic League's history, you'll find most of their members were middle-class urban dwellers, not people from or connected to the Gealtacht. Irish speakers don't care about the Gaelic league or about any guilt English speakers may or may not feel about the Irish language - they just speak Irish and would like to have access to basic services in their own language, just like the speakers of any language.

An Ireland dancing at the crossroads, dressed in tweed with arran caps, a country of the priest and the scholar - Ireland has heard all this before. You cant have a government engineer a culture - attempts to do so are futile and less than wholesome - my use of the term kulturkamf isnt coincidental. Ireland is not Gaelic. Gaelic and Ireland were one and the same centuries ago but not anymore - certain aspects of the Gaelic culture weve held onto, but the language wasnt one of them.

Ah, the old stereotypes. Irish speakers have changed just as much in terms of morality as the rest of the country in recent decades. This isn't about a Kulturkampf - again, we just want to get basic recognition for the language we speak, not to rip off the EU, not to guilt-trip English speakers but because we feel it is our language and we feel most comfortable speaking it.

MrPinK

Originally posted by simu
again, we just want to get basic recognition for the language we speak, not to rip off the EU, not to guilt-trip English speakers but because we feel it is our language and we feel most comfortable speaking it.

Irish is recognised by the EU, as a regional/minority language. Would you disagree that it's a minority language?

simu

Yes it is a minority language but it's also one of the official languages of Ireland.

Article 8
If a Member State has more than one official language, the language to be used shall, at the request of such State, be governed by the general rules of its law (EEC Council: Regulation No 1 determining the languages to be used by the European Economic Community)

From here

The Irish government never considered doing this - Irish speakers see this as another sign of its contempt for the language and its speakers.

sceptre

Originally posted by simu
From here

The Irish government never considered doing this - Irish speakers see this as another sign of its contempt for the language and its speakers.

We're turning full circle here in a way - I mentioned this in the original thread on the subject of the petition over in AfterHours. Your beef isn't with the EU for not establishing the Irish language as an official working language, it's with the Irish government for not requesting it (yet again, I'll state that this is all they have to do - phone up and request it, say they'll pay for it)

(which is one of the reasons I cited to assert that the petition was doubly pointless in its current incarnation but there you go)

of course now I'm repeating myself for no good reason. Maybe I'm morphing into Cork.
oh hang on, no, there's a point above