A very important issue - Do NOT sign the "Save Irish" petition.

simu

Well, this is what the petition actually says:

To: Dáil Éireann - Irish Parliament Is é ár n-éileamh go ngairfear teanga oifigiúil oibre de chuid an Aontais Eorpaigh den Ghaeilge. Le meas, Muid, a chuir ár n-ainm le seo.

We demand that the Irish language be declared an official working language of the European Union.
Sincerely, The Undersigned

From here

There was some confusion earlier on - some thought that Irish *was* an official language and was being removed but that's not what the above suggests.

Where did that rumour come from?

sceptre

Originally posted by simu
There was some confusion earlier on - some thought that Irish *was* an official language and was being removed but that's not what the above suggests.

Where did that rumour come from?

Aha, look at that (link). Rumour came from some email circulating which stated that Irish was being removed (the email text was featred in the first post of each of the petition threads started on boards). For some reason I (and others (not just here - check out some of the comments in the petition condemning the EU for "abolishing irish")) must not have looked at the actual petition:rolleyes: (the text quoted from the circulated email was idiotic enough that I commented on that instead)
(this is the original petition, yeah?)

Right so, new rules, different game. Petition is going to the right place and I wish the petition starters well. I'm not signing it as I don't personally see the point (I still have reasonably good Welsh[1] and couldn't see the point of that being an official working language either, the basic recognition does exist) but I'm not going to start an anti-petition-petition either and I doubt that anyone else will.

As an aside (which simu is probably well aware of but others may not be), there's no problem with dropping Irish for the leaving Cert from the point of view of the DoEd. The local school may insist on it (there's probably still a capitation link) and the older universities (NUI & TCD) have it as an entry requirement (which is rather silly unless you're actually doing the language as part of a course - UL and DCU require English or Irish) but Noelie Dempsey doesn't really care. Given that the Gaelteacht residents probably don't care whether people do it in school or not and the government don't either I'd prefer to see people who want to study it be able to study it without Anto moaning about it at the back of the class.

[1]oddly enough better than my Irish (I only got a C1 in higher Irish) - I was at an Irish debate last year which I could only understand snippets of by changing the k sounds to p sounds and pretending it was bad Welsh. Don't bother trying it by the way, it doesn't really work.

Gearoid

I *had* to take it for the leaving cert. No choice. I could drop French if I wanted. But I *couldnt* drop Irish

You shouldn't have had to, You can drop Irish from you're LC if you want to, i think Compulsory Irish was ended in the 70's or 80's sometime though i could be wrong so if someone knows the exact date please correct me. I don't support the language being shoved down anyone's throat by the way(nor do many ppl I reckon) so don't be taking it out anyone who is pro-Irish language for past mistakes in the ED system.

Thats a language on life support waiting for someone to pull the plug, not a language thats in common usage. Ive never heard Irish used outside an educational facility in this country. Ever. Ive heard Russian used more often in daily life.

That's because as Simu said you haven't been in the right places, there are plenty places in this country where you'll hear irish being spoken, even in cities if you look.

Be honest - If Irish was the language of Ireland then it would be an official language - it wouldnt be up for debate. But it isnt, and some face saving petition on the part of hobbyists isnt going to change that.

it is an official language of Ireland, the reason it isn't an official EU language is because the government of the time turned down the oppurtunity.

An Ireland dancing at the crossroads, dressed in tweed with arran caps, a country of the priest and the scholar - Ireland has heard all this before. You cant have a government engineer a culture - attempts to do so are futile and less than wholesome - my use of the term kulturkamf isnt coincidental. Ireland is not Gaelic. Gaelic and Ireland were one and the same centuries ago but not anymore - certain aspects of the Gaelic culture weve held onto, but the language wasnt one of them. Thats not a tragedy - its just the way history turned out. Passing a few laws with wishful thinking in the driving seat wont change anything. The whole E.U. official language thing is just an attempt to inflict the guilt trip about us not being Gaelic enough onto the E.U.

:rolleyes: LOL, no need to get paranoid about it, no one is trying to engineer a culture or bring back the bad oul day's as you've outlined above. I think you missed my point altogether, what I was saying is that A language is the most defining foundation of a Nation or people, it is what makes them unique. Language's can develop, grow and modernise and support a popular culture, even one's which have roots going back thousands of years, Irish is no different, an Irish speaker doesn't by definition dance at the crossroads or wear tweed because he's an Irish speaker, i don't anyway nor do any of my peers who are irish speakers.

No one is trying to shift guilt onto anyone in fact I don't even know where you're getting this guilt thing from. All that is being done is petitioning the Irish government to do what they could have done for the last thirty years, It won't break the bank and there is a demand for it.

Irish is recognised by the EU, as a regional/minority language. Would you disagree that it's a minority language?

Of course it is a Minority language in the country as a whole also though it is a majority language in certain areas. One way of putting it is, it's spoken by a minority but by no means dead as some people say. Now realistically it's never going to be spoken by the entire population again, But it's always going to be spoken by at least a sizeable minority so what do you do decide you couldn't give a toss about the wishes of thousands of people and stop any services in that language? That's just bad government, the providing of Official EU language staus isn't being met with opposition by any size similar to the support for it so it's not going to do any harm.

Sand

You had to take it for Leaving Cert because it's part of a curriculum devised by people in the Dept. of Education.

More accurately you could say I had to take it because its one of Irelands official languages - and whilst you no longer fail the LC if you fail Irish youre really narrowing your options thanks to the N.U.I and T.C.D. And we all know who to blame for that. The gap between English and Irish is demonstrated because English is concerned with appreciating a selection of plays, poems and novels along with a bit of creative writing thrown in. Its already assumed youre a fluent English speaker. On the other hand the Irish course is attempting to make you fluent.

If you're that determined to get to uni, learning a few bits of Irish to do so won't kill you.

Oh it didnt - im still here to bitch about it afterall, but given Irish was my weakest subject by far and the deliberate bias given to it then its handily hindering people who might be shoddy third rate englanders All the time I spent on it to get just enough to get into the N.U.I. would have been much better spent on say, Economics. However Irish is one of our official languages. And Economics isnt.

The Irish language is not dependant on ppl who do it for leaving cert! It's a well-known fact most LC students have a pretty low standard of Irish overall. Do you think ppl in the Gaeltacht give a damn about LC Irish students. Do you think, if the failure rate of LC Irish went above 50%, they'd suddenly decide to stop speaking Irish?

Youre right - thats my view about making Irish an official E.U. language - Its not like Irish speakers are going to stop speaking the language because its not included. Its not like theyre going to stop speaking it if it wasnt an official language of Ireland. Its not like theyre going to stop speaking it if the bias towards it is removed. As much as you cant make a dead language popular by passing laws and issuing directives ( as you say yourself the LC hasnt done much for Irish ) neither can you make a live language unpopular by removing bias towards it. Look at it this way, If Im right and English is dead were wasting our time with funding Irish anyway. If youre right, then Irish is live and kicking regardless and thus doesnt need the bias given to it.

Either way theres not much case for such bias/feel-good laws. Making Irish an official language of Ireland hasnt done much for its popularity. Not making it an official language of the E.U. wont do much for its popularity either.

It's not the language of everyone in Ireland but there is an Irish-speaking minority and they want recognition to be given to their language. That is all.

Theres a lot of minority languages in Ireland after the past decade Id reckon, probably a lot of their speakers would like some recognition too - should they all be made official languages as well? Afterall theyre E.U. citizens too now and deserve to have treaties affecting them drawn up in their languages. The use of English afterall is an assault on their cultural identity. The case youre making for Irish is just as valid in their case.

In fairness, calling Irish a minority language might be giving it too much credit - its probably closer to a regional language at this stage. The Gaeltacht is defined by its use afterall.

What does that prove? You just haven't been in the right places!

Dont you see that youre arguing that the language is commonly used - in certain places. Not Ireland as a whole, but in certain locations. Im saying Irish isnt spoken commonly in Ireland, and youre countering that by saying I only think that because Ive not gone to the right places. The results of a larger, more representitive sample tend to have more weight than a restricted sample. If youre asking whether Irish is comonly used in Ireland whats a more honest sample - Ireland or the Gaeltacht?

If you look at the Gaelic League's history, you'll find most of their members were middle-class urban dwellers, not people from or connected to the Gealtacht. Irish speakers don't care about the Gaelic league or about any guilt English speakers may or may not feel about the Irish language - they just speak Irish and would like to have access to basic services in their own language, just like the speakers of any language.

Given that spirit I assume youll happily be footing the bill for all of Irelands new minorities getting access to basic services in their own lanuage just like the speakers of any language. Recruitment for the Gardai is going to be a bit tougher when youve got to find people able to take statements in 49 (guess) languages.

Ah, the old stereotypes. Irish speakers have changed just as much in terms of morality as the rest of the country in recent decades. This isn't about a Kulturkampf - again, we just want to get basic recognition for the language we speak, not to rip off the EU, not to guilt-trip English speakers but because we feel it is our language and we feel most comfortable speaking it.

Im just throwing up the previous attempts to make Ireland more "irish" and less a "shoddy third rate england". The idealism seems ridiculous now, but it just shows that people will define their own culture - the government cant do it for them no matter how they try , art imitates life after all. You and Gearoid both seem to have a fairly idealistic attachment to Irish, you both seem to see it as a valuable part of the Irish identity and culture. This probably justifies its place as an official language, probably over and beyond other minority languages which may have arrived to these shores in the past few years. The problem is believing it doesnt make it so. The Irish culture doesnt have any real place for the Irish language these days except as an exscuse for bad english , " Im heading out tonight for some craic agus ceoil" for example. Sure, it was part of our culture once but like the Catholic Church its not anymore.

Im happy to accept Irish is a live and kicking language - Id happily remove both English and Irish as "official" languages and leave it to demand to decide which language would be the vernacular. Crazy you say? The U.S. hasnt any official language though there are lobby groups demanding that English be made so (Its a real trump card in the Republicans backpocket Id imagine, too good to play almost). This hasnt stopped minority languages like Spanish for example thriving in places like California.

So why does Ireland have an official language? Most likely because they had to justify the bias they were going to give the Irish language - and indeed the bias has been justified by the fact its an official language. And if youre going to make Irish an official language then you have to make English one also to retain any credibility.

We're turning full circle here in a way - I mentioned this in the original thread on the subject of the petition over in AfterHours. Your beef isn't with the EU for not establishing the Irish language as an official working language, it's with the Irish government for not requesting it

Yeah, theyre the culprits/heroes. They havent got the guts to be seen as removing one of the pillars of our Irish/anti-English identity but at least theyre not trying to make the matter worse.

of course now I'm repeating myself for no good reason. Maybe I'm morphing into Cork.

I have to give Cork credit. Hed probably be the most successful T.D. out of anyone who posts here. Thats an honest opinion, though Cork is given a bit of stick - thats most likely because most politics posters dont like politicians and Cork sounds like a good one. He talks the talk and knows whats the political thing to say in regards to most issues. Look at the position on the Irish language, offends no one ( unlike me, Ive probably already lost Simus and Gearoids vote ) and probably gains a few votes from the Irish speakers. You cant argue with that.....Right, thats the offtopic quota satisfied.

Gearoid, Im not ignoring your post - Its just Ive tackled most of your points to some degree in replying to Simu. And Id hate for sceptre to start slagging me off:(

Victor

Originally posted by sceptre
Aha, look at that (link). Rumour came from some email circulating which stated that Irish was being removed (the email text was featred in the first post of each of the petition threads started on boards). For some reason I (and others (not just here - check out some of the comments in the petition condemning the EU for "abolishing irish")) must not have looked at the actual petition:rolleyes: (the text quoted from the circulated email was idiotic enough that I commented on that instead)

Probably because the site was having problems at the time.

Go Figure!

The first thing I did when I saw this topic was to sign the petition and I got all my friends to sign it as well. It's a great idea which I hadn't been aware of until I saw this!

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Gael
Over 63100 signatures now.

Oh, by the way (to everyone who signed the petition)...you do know an online petition is about as much use as a wet paper bag?