A question about speech

Exit

Does it matter that when some people speak, they completely mispronounce words, or don't use proper grammar at all? Just taking some examples that have been spoken about here. For instance, when people say "I seen John yesterday". To me, it sounds awful and I'd never use it, but hasn't the English language already evolved this way. There are, presumably, thousands of words and phrases that have been changed from how they were originally pronounced or meant, and are now used in everyday language as normal. This is where different dialects (and accents?) come from.
So then, if the English language is a continuing evolution, isn't it wrong to complain about people speaking incorrectly? Yes, it can put the speaker into a certain social stereotype, but apart from that, is there anything wrong with it?

Note that I'm just talking about speech and not written language.

Victor

I think it's largely down to poor teaching, poor observation of grammar rules and local inconsistancies. I was in an internet café and soemone asked me to spell "idear" - at first I didn't know.

In Ireland a builder may speak of an "ope in a wall", whereas in England they would refer to an "opening in a wall".

simu

So then, if the English language is a continuing evolution, isn't it wrong to complain about people speaking incorrectly?

No. In most countries there is a standard that educated people are expected to conform to. This changes slowly over time. If everybody just made the language up as they went along, communication would be impossible.

Exit

But everyday speech doesn't dramatically change to the point of incomprehension. It also changes slowly over time, where gradually people begin to learn what the new words or pronunciations mean. I mean, it's not as if somebody just one day decides to make up new words and phrases.

simu

But everyday speech doesn't dramatically change to the point of incomprehension.

Ever hear skangers talking?:)

Exit

Yeah, but some people know what they're saying And it's not a concerted attempt to change the language.

Specky

Language is used on a lot of different levels, all of which are about communication but sometimes it isn't the content that is being used to communicate, it is the way the language is being used.

When you speak to others it is your responsibility to make yourself understood (not, as some may think, the responsibility of others to understand you) so it is often necessary to adjust the way you speak to match your audience. Nobody would think twice about simplifying their speech when talking to children or to use terms of reference that make sense to the child...it is even necessary to make individual adjustments on a child by child basis.

Sometimes, mostly amongst adults, people are using the way they talk and what they say to convey something else about who they are.

Skangers talk like skangers for a lot of reasons. Their sub-culture is now fully developed and self sustaining and continues to play its part in the class based society we inhabit but try so hard to deny.

Skangers talk like skangers so that skangers can recognise each other.

Skangers talk like skangers because they believe none-skangers will be perhaps intimidated by their proximity to skangerdom.

Skangers talk like skangers because they choose to reject the establishment they see as responsible for an education system that might encourage them to talk differently.

So how should you speak when you talk to a skanger? Well if you want them to listen to you and you want them to understand what you’re saying then you’re probably not going to succeed if you choose that moment to display your command of the English language, your clever and eloquent use of grammar and the breadth of your vocabulary.

I like the English language. It is my first, and to all practical intents, my only language. I enjoy its flexibility and the possibility of creating new words with it that you will never find in a dictionary but which people can understand even though they’ve never heard them before. Unlike a French person I spoke to recently who looked down on the English language for this very reason, I admire it.

I have to admit I get irritated by sloppy punctuation and bad grammar (I don’t claim, by the way, to have perfect grammar but it’s not bad). Not because I’m a language snob, but because if someone is trying to communicate their ideas to me I’d appreciate if they could be bothered to be reasonably clear so that I don’t have to wade through their ambiguities in order to guess what it is they’re trying to say.

In the course of my work I deal with a very broad cross section of the community from a very broad educational background and I have absolutely no problem communicating with anyone.

Where my irritation really begins is when dealing with people who are educated but who refuse to use the language correctly. I say “refuse” to use rather than “cannot” use because it isn’t as though these people missed school on the day they “did” grammar and punctuation. They’ve been through primary, second level and third level education, and so should by now have had plenty of time to catch up. I wonder sometimes whether people have grasped the idea that when they are writing they are supposed to be communicating. It’s almost as though things written or typed are just “throw away” snippets of little importance, never to be re-visited.

If you’re typing emails all day long does it really take you any significant additional time to construct reasonable sentences and use a little punctuation? I don’t think it does…especially if it results in the person on the other end understanding your exact meaning first time around, and you being able to understand what you meant to say when you re-read the email a month later.

Text messaging…ok, that’s a little different as it is so incredibly inconvenient to use proper language but that’s a temporary technology glitch really. Video and audio messaging will supersede text messaging in time as the requisite technology becomes cheaper and is fully deployed.

Sure you can “dumb down”, but can you “smart up”? If you don’t know and use the language correctly in the first place I’d contend that you can’t.

To answer your very original question (as I have wandered off onto a bit of a rant there…), no it doesn’t matter that people mis-pronounce words as long as the person to whom the words are addressed understands.

Filum.

Eejit.

We all know what they mean….but go to another English speaking country and say “I just went to see the filum with that eejit” and no-one will understand what you’re saying.

Exit

I agree with you that people change their speech to suit their environment. For instance, when I'm abroad I always watch for what I'm saying so that I can filter out words that people wouldn't understand. But when I'm at home I speak the regular old Dublinese.
However, I don't think skangers consciously change their language to suit their mates. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think for a lot of them, it's just the way they speak and they don't know any different.

Specky

You don't think they "talk hard" to be like their mates?

I think people do. If you look at the opposite end of the scale there are certainly plenty of people who talk to impress when they're in company but wouldn't speak the same if talking to....their mum or someone....

Exit

No, I do agree that some people talk in a certain way around certain individuals. For instance, I know of someone who has recently adopted a 'posh' sounding accent since she has gone to college to presumably avoid people knowing where she comes from. Her family all slag her over it.

As far as skangers go, however, I don't think they put on the accent. They talk like that with their mates, they talk like that with their family, they talk like that in school, and I'm betting they talk like that in work. It's just the way they talk, and I don't think it's intentional.