Inquiry into IRA Collusion

Cork

Michael McDowell said he had gained Government backing for the inquiry after it was recommended in a report by Canadian judge Peter Cory.

I hope that SF/IRA co-operates with this inquiry.

"There is evidence in relation to all of the paramilitary republican organisations that they are engaging in criminality. In relation to Sinn Fein, it is one side of a coin, the other side of which is the IRA," McDowell told Ireland's RTE public radio.QUOTE]


Fair Play to Michael McDowell in dealing with possible collusion bewteen the IRA and Irish Security Forces.

gurramok

In reference to your quote, Michael McDowell can be a gobsh*** at times.

I'd wish he would come up near me where he will see some gun-toting non-political real criminals who are back from 'holiday' now that the armed gardai(& ERU) have now disappeared after their sudden appearance for a few weeks.
That €2m allocated to them has now dried up.

One newspaper estimated that there were 60 members of one gang in my area who have access to a range of weapons, a small army if you ask me

Cork

I think that - he is right to investigate links between the security forces and illegal armies.

And I hope SF will co-operate with such investigations.

RTE should investigate such links.

Originally posted by gurramok


One newspaper estimated that there were 60 members of one gang in my area who have access to a range of weapons, a small army if you ask me

Where are these arms coming from?

gurramok

Where are these arms coming from?

Within drug shipments, like everything else that can be smuggled in.
Plus they can afford them with bulging wallets of cash from peddling their drugs.

Cork

Originally posted by gurramok
Within drug shipments, like everything else that can be smuggled in.
Plus they can afford them with bulging wallets of cash from peddling their drugs.

There is a very interesting story on the Front Page of the Tribune with regards to illegal armies and criminal acctivity in Dublin.

Michael McDowell is right to start putting questions to SF/IRA.

gurramok

There is a very interesting story on the Front Page of the Tribune with regards to illegal armies and criminal acctivity in Dublin

In dublin, the gangs are getting their arms independently themselves and not from supposedly republican sources.
On a grand scale, the drug gangs are the real threat to law and order not the republicans.(their on ceasefire yeh ? )

Thats where McDowell should be concentrating his criticisms and do something about it and bring back the armed garda checkpoints which have now disappeared.

Mighty_Mouse

Jesus this guy is some cow-boy!. I get at least one laugh outta him every week. He is an extreme case of upper-class, stereo-typical, attitudes to all social problems.

After his outburst on the Today fm - Last Word programme and now this.

For all of you who believe that this is something that should be investigated, surely ye cant agree with Michael McPlonkers political timing on this issue.

The peace process is at a critical juncture and this lemon is add fuel to the ani-agreements fire.

Almost as bad as Berties bombsell remark " we will not share government......private army", which will slow up the process until a time it is withdrawn.

Surely somebody in FF can shut him up until the agreement beds in a bit at least.

And at the end of the day alll his allegations are completly unfounded.

What were dealing with here is a minister for JUSTICE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! who believes that he has the right to make accusations and when challenged on them refuses to substantiate them.

.................ie Guards taking bribes!

Surely, Nobody can defend this lound-mouthed ignoramous with about as much political nouse as a bull in a china shop!

Victor

Hatchet job, eh, robust reporting on one of the victims.

http://www.thepost.ie/web/DocumentView/did-61540739-pageUrl--2FHome.asp

Murdered RUC officer in collusion claim
21/12/03 00:00
By Paul T Colgan

RUC Chief Superintendent Harry Breen, who was killed by the IRA in 1989, may have been compromised by Gardaí when they learned he colluded with loyalist killers, according to security analysts.

Canadian Judge Peter Cory, who has recommended a public inquiry into the killing of Breen and his colleague, Bob Buchanan, appears to have overlooked specific allegations made against Breen linking him to loyalist paramilitaries and attacks made in the Republic during the 1970s.

Breen was named in a 1999 affidavit by former colleague RUC officer JohnWeir as having assisted him in the procurement of home-made submachine guns for loyalists.

The weapons were produced by an organisation known as Down Orange Welfare and were thought to have been used in attacks on nationalists in the north and on southern targets.

Weir's evidence was cited in last week's Barron Report into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings. Barron described him as "credible" and said he "came over as someone with considerable knowledge of the events which were taking place in the areas where he was stationed".

Barron's report referred to Weir's statement regarding Breen, though it did not name Breen.

Weir was jailed in 1977 for the murder of a Catholic grocer and later went on to reveal that RUC officers routinely took part in loyalist attacks on both sides of the border.

Breen made numerous visits to Dundalk Garda station in the 1980s to liaise with special branch officers about paramilitary activity in the region. He and Buchanan were assassinated by the IRA in 1989 while travelling north after such a meeting. He was the most senior RUC officer to be killed during the troubles.

Judge Cory found that the RUC and Garda had intelligence documents which, if proven accurate, would point to collusion between members of the Garda and the IRA in the killings.

Mighty_Mouse

Victor -
Not sure what you point is.

I could believe that there was a few rogue gardai with republican sympathies during the Troubles but I dont think "they're as bad as each other" argument applys.

I wouldn't accept that a widespread culture of collusion with Loyalist/Republican terrorist existed in the Gardai in an comparable way that it did in the RUC.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Victor

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
I wouldn't accept that a widespread culture of collusion with Loyalist/Republican terrorist existed in the Gardai in an comparable way that it did in the RUC.

Indeed, how the timing of the piece would appear to be a damage limitation "he was a bad man and deserved to die" piece.

Cork

Originally posted by daveirl
Does it matter how widespread it was?

Yes, It does.


Let us hope that such inquirys will be supported by all concerned.

The same principles should apply to collusion whether it happened North or South.

I hope SF/IRA coperates with such investigations so that the souce and extent of any possible collusion can be determined.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Mighty_Mouse

The point I was trying to make is lets not get carried away focusing on Gardai collaboration with the IRA. I believe their could only be a very small number of Gardai if any involved here.
The main issue when considering collusion is the widespread culture of collaboration with loyalist within the RUC.

Its a completely different thing to saying we shouldn't examine what went within the Gardai after all if we cant examine the past actions of our own police force how can expect the British to do the same.

My instant reaction to McDowells(spelling!) statement was poor timing! Oh my god, at time when the main focus of all parties should be making the agreement work he goes and hands the anti-agreement unionists another stick to beat the pro agreement parties with.

He is a political moron, ignorant, loud, obnoxious and strikes me a person who considers enough mouth a substitute for basic intelligence.

Cork

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse


Its a completely different thing to saying we shouldn't examine what went within the Gardai after all if we cant examine the past actions of our own police force how can expect the British to do the same.

Not being tribal - Should we not investigate collusion between our security forces and an illegal army?

I think we should.

Collusion bewteen our security forces and the IRA was Wrong.

Such practices need investigation.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Mighty_Mouse

I think to say that Sinn Fein have been undercritised in the past 10 years due to the peace process is really unbelievable. No other party has been subjected to the same level of scrutiny, examination an criticism from all around the world.

But there has been some huge blunders and speaches by sounthern politicians which have not helped the peace process......... i mean look at berties " i would go into governement,............private army etc" bombshell.

You cant argue that this is something which the unionists (especially anti-agreement) have used not to participate in the process.

There is no need for McDowells attack at this critical time in the process. It just doesnt make sense the timing is all wrong even for his own gain it doesnt make sense.

Do people here actually believe that IRA activity is funding Sinn Fein!!!!!!!!!! Its ridiculous. Do ye actualy believe the Sinners would be up to any dodgy activity given the level of scrutiny their under. And dont go citing bull**** storment , castlerea incidents.

So the idea of coming clean just doesnt apply.I really cant understand how on examination of situation in Northern ireland, the troubles, the political break-down, the terrorists, splinter groups, that anybody can criticise the work sinn fein have done to date

Is this was true it would have been publicised ages ago.

Cork

I can't see how the IRA can hold onto weapons - If the war is over.

Such weapons should not be used as bargaining chips to get concessions.

Illegal Arms from all sides need urgent decommissioning.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Mighty_Mouse

If you consider the northern Ireland peace process as important then statements which increase the difficulties in which the pro-agreement parties have to operate are blunders. ---"berties private army".

I dont have a problem with anti-republican anti-sinn fein statements after all everyone is entitled. But many statements are not neceassary. Sinners were never gonna be in a position to enter governement and therfore the only result from this statement was a strengthening the anti-agreement parties arguments. it wasnt necessary just like mcdowells

the link doesnt work but i can imagine the story. Also keep in mind your quoting a british paper. The IRA is on cease-fire. Tell me how it isnt. You have to admit that the IRA have done remarkably well in a very short amount of time from a period of war to peace , decreasing their activities, holding their cease fire , providing assurances that the war is over etc and crucially ......... not splitting the organisatons.

The argument that ever single activity such as policing their own areas and completly trusting the RUC to protect nationists before politics can happen is idealist. It wouldnt work. You cant say that the IRA as an organisation has done remarkably well. At the end of hte say a return to war isnt gonna happen. assurances have been provided. Decomissioning was and is a smoke screeen. Sure the IRA dont even know where half the arms are burried since the civil war!!!. Every single bullet ...........decommissioned ................is just crazy talk. Even is the IRA came out and stated that they have completely decommisioned how could they provide proof. The cease fire is whats inportant and this has been maintained. From the most extreme to progressive member the ira has been held together by strong leadership.

We are on the way to long lasting peace lets not knock those who are fighting for it

Cork

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse
The cease fire is whats inportant and this has been maintained. From the most extreme to progressive member the ira has been held together by strong leadership.

We are on the way to long lasting peace lets not knock those who are fighting for it

SF are fighting for Peace?

From a security point of view - why are there groups with illegal arms in this country?

Has SF/IRA not a role in disposing of these to build confidence in the Peace Process?

These weapons should not be used as bargaining chips to gain concessions.

If the War is over - Why are these weapons not disposed of?

Can SF/IRA gaurentee that these weapons will not fall into the hards of gangs in our cities?

Why does the IRA still exist? When the war is over - why does an illegal army continue to exist?

If the SDLP,FF,PD,Labour or FG had links to an illegal army - they would be uproar.

LegacyUser

Originally posted by Cork
SF are fighting for Peace?

From a security point of view - why are there groups with illegal arms in this country?

Has SF/IRA not a role in disposing of these to build confidence in the Peace Process?

These weapons should not be used as bargaining chips to gain concessions.

If the War is over - Why are these weapons not disposed of?

Can SF/IRA gaurentee that these weapons will not fall into the hards of gangs in our cities?

Why does the IRA still exist? When the war is over - why does an illegal army continue to exist?

If the SDLP,FF,PD,Labour or FG had links to an illegal army - they would be uproar.

this type of talk is just pure silliness, the ira isn't just one person, there a few of them actually, ranging from those happy to go along with the current process to those biting at the bit to start killing again, they cant just give up all their weapons or they will split and back to war we go, i have no idea why an intelligent person like urself cork, and im sure u are, can't realise this and instead continue to spout silliness

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cork

Originally posted by daveirl
So you're saying that the parties in the South who are fighting for seats with Sinn Féin should allow themselves to be targeted by Sinn Féin when SF go on about corruption in FF for example while all the time Sinn Féin have their own private army, a direct violation of the consititution, and the parties in the south shouldn't raise the issue with the electorate. Please! Maybe that could be arranged if Sinn Féin decided not to raise any of the bad things about the other parties.

SF?IRA cannot hold a threat of splitting the IRA as a reason to hold onto illegal arms?

Who do these people think they are?

I am so tired of SF - moaning and groaning about other parties in the peace process. It is about time SF took a close look at itself.

If SF/IRA cannot rid themselves of these weapons - let security forces on both sides of the border do it.

What purpose does SF/IRA want these weapons for?

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Cork

Daveirl, Your points were so well made - I just decided to include them in my posting.

Mighty_Mouse

Do you expect the IRA to give specifics so that the unionists election posters state for the next ten yrs -" 150000 bullets , 500 grenades, 15 guns etc............"
The whole decommissioning situation is so absurd that its impossible to see how a reasonable person cannot not see the insignificance of it.

Why does it matter.? If there is no war ? Let politics dictate the way forward.

The IRA are never gonna state

---

"we disband" or "we surrender" etc or whatever ye are looking for but effectively they did say
"the war is over" is that not enough.

I just think that ye are being unreasonable here in what ye expect from a terrorist organisation trying to bring ever member towards a political struggle. But in 5 years time there still will be a cease fire and all this decommissoning wont matter.

Why does a british paper matter ? - when quoting republican activities !!
um - i think you know where im coming from

Cork

Originally posted by Mighty_Mouse


The IRA are never gonna state

---

"we disband" or "we surrender" etc or whatever ye are looking for but effectively they did say
"the war is over" is that not enough.

No - it is not.

There is no room for illegal armies in this country or political groupings with links to such organisations.

If this is the atitude of SF/IRA then - let security forces deal with them.

They agree that the war is over and to the principle of consent - why do they want to maintain an illegal army?

Mighty_Mouse

Cork - answers to a few of your questions

Quote Cork: SF are fighting for Peace?
- I think it would be hard to argue otherwise. Do you not believe that Sinn Fein are part of a peaceful political struggle?


From a security point of view - why are there groups with illegal arms in this country?
800 yrs , troubles, IRB -- > IRA, occupation, civil rights in NI etc
ie has it ever been any other way for the best part of the last century.


Has SF/IRA not a role in disposing of these to build confidence in the Peace Process?
-- > yes and they have done so in accordance to independant, agreed upon guidelines

Q. how can anybody ever know is all weapons are decommissioned? Its a token gesture and thats all it ever can be.




These weapons should not be used as bargaining chips to gain concessions.
--> effectively there not. Its the other way around really. The weapons dont matter as ive said. Decommisioning is a process which can never to the satisfaction of everyone be completed. Its done by republicans to give confidence to the other side. let poeple know their serious about peace.


If the War is over - Why are these weapons not disposed of?
as above - it is over and they have been


Can SF/IRA gaurentee that these weapons will not fall into the hards of gangs in our cities?
-- um! I doubt they will, but im sure that the gangs in our cities have other sources for weapons.



Why does the IRA still exist? When the war is over - why does an illegal army continue to exist?
-- Your never gonna get the "we surrender and disband" your looking for but the IRA will just become more and more obsolete



If the SDLP,FF,PD,Labour or FG had links to an illegal army - they would be uproar."
After the civil war, war of independance?

Mighty_Mouse

CORK--->

No - it is not.

There is no room for illegal armies in this country or political groupings with links to such organisations.

If this is the atitude of SF/IRA then - let security forces deal with them.

They agree that the war is over and to the principle of consent - why do they want to maintain an illegal army?

---

like i said to ask for a "we surrender and disband " is crazy.

You have to understand the context of the peace process. It could never work under the terms you are stating.

The IRA are not needed. But they sure aint gonna give unionists the specific words they wanted. They couldnt hold their side together of they specifically stated what their been asked to specifically state.

It will never happen. But why get hung up on the RA. At the end of the day they are the only org on cease fire
UVF, UDA etc

---

can i ask u a question?

Do u honestly believe the IRA will ever say. "we surender and disband" or something similar. Common sense says no.

If not do we just abandon the whole peace process. Theres a few million ppl up north that wouldnt like to see that happen.

At the end of the day you can deny that great progress has been made up north and that Sinn Fein hafve played a vital role in that