Inquiry into IRA Collusion

Cork

The Minister for Foreign Affairs has dismissed comments made by the Sinn Féin president Gerry Adams that members of the Government have been using the peace process for their own electoral needs.

Link

Gerry Adams never have used the peace process for electoral needs.

Johnny 5

Originally posted by daveirl
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=282897&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

That was interesting, there was only one purpose thread on the dublin monaghan bombings and it had no replys. Some people have their priorities mixed up.

Mighty_Mouse

"Mighty Mouse, in your post of 14-01-2004 13:25 you say:

“I actually think thats its impossible to get unionists to act proactively and make a go of the 'Good Friday' agreement. The ony way forward is to keep reducing their excuses and try and get some work done while they think of another.”

Then in your last post you say

“The problem is that the goal of Irish republicans should not be to reduce Unionist excuses not to participate in a democracy.”

Can you explain this apparent inconsistency?"

How did I know you would pick up on this!!

Let me clarify: what seems to be happening at the moment is the constant cycle of the Unionists getting something, entering a democracy, moving the goalposts and draggin the whole thing down again.

This is whats happening at the moment and the only reason the process hasnt reached a complete standstill before this is because of republican concessions.

This is how progress was made on education etc in the NI.

BUT

Should this be the way things should work. Should both parties not be commited to creating a working democrary in NI? Should unionists not be more proactive.

I think they should

But dont expect they will

BUt one way or another republicans are moving towards a united Ireland


the first statement is the reality the second the ideal

Mighty_Mouse

Let me ask the question:

Does anyone actually believe that Sinn Fein activities are funded by the IRA!!!!!

"What I take from the last few posts from Johnny 5 and Mighty Mouse is ‘don’t hit us with that other guy’s fault stuff because we find it difficult to refute.’ All the time the real issue is how you see things proceeding from here, which you see to have nothing to say about"

I cant speak for johnny 5. But my argument all along has how do you see things progressing from here and I have written a small essay in answers previous!!!

I think you being slighly disingenious to say that I'm given one-sided, blindfolded rants and text-book answers here, which is what you are insinuating.

My opinion from the start:

Decommisioning can never be completed adequatley so why not switch the focus!
===== all the necessary gestures which can be attained from decommissioing inimo have been made! Theres nothing further that can be got from it

IRA - have said the war is over, apologised etc etc etc ..................in order to just get a government running. Each time goalposts move and no proper gov.
At this stage IRA have nothing more to give.

Whats left to do is for Trimble, (now hes got rid of jeffery) to act as the unionists pro-agreement party.

Paisley is on the way out and the DUP at the end of the day will want power. The possiblity exists for governement. Nedd trimble to campaign to his own community. Not his half-arsed efforts to date.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Vader

Sorry I havnt read the entire thread yet (first two pages and the latter half of this one), I will but want to give my two cents first.

Cork says over and over again in each of his posts on the first page: he want SF/IRA to cooperate/not obstruct any inquiry. How has SF obstructed any such inquiry. The lack of any inquiry is the result of the inaction of the gov of the day ie FF. Who would such an inquiry find to be responsible? The then gov of the day, FF/FG maybe?

Why does the IRA not just dispand? Becaise that would be just dangerous! You want the most dangerous, highly trained, well equiped ppl in the country to become unemployed? I wonder what type of lifestyle/income they would chose.

Uhh how would that be diff from now. All IRA are murderers who live for crime and use nationalism as a cover

I dont know if anybody here is that stupid but if there is (and I probably wont have a chance to make any replies for a while) the IRA is made up of many diff sorts of ppl who joined for diff reasons and carry out diff activities. The IRA have many honourable men of the character of the OIRA of old. The IRA has a set of rules and regulations which volunteers and officers must follow. It has a very good disciplinary procedure (of course many examples of abuse come to mind but it is much less grousome than the INLA and loyalists dont have any). I admit that there are many cases of abuse where rules are broken but there are diff camps within the IRA and some ppl are too powerful to be disiplined and some use the threat of breaking away if there actions are interfered with.

The first thing I want is for the IRA to stop recruiting, I dont want the IRA to disband- I want it to fade away and die peacefully.

Are SF activities funded by the IRA? Thats both stupid and irrelevent.
Yes! What would you prefere IRA money is spent on? Do you know how most of this money is raised?

Drug running, robberies, selling its guns to gangs in limerick and protection rackets!
Wrong! And no serious commentator will tell you that!

1)Their main income is smuggling

2)Counterfeit goods

3)fundraising in america and the UK.

4)Selling technology to FARC and ETA and other groups it considers friendly. Im not going to go off topic and discuss the ins and outs of these organisations but FARC are definitly the good guys in columbia. Its a whole other thread in itself so I'll simply correct a common misconception. FARC are not involved in drug trafficing.

5)Taxing criminals. You might say this is the same as commiting the crimes themselves, I dont think so. It makes crimes less profitable and much riskier as the IRA is at this stage heavily infiltrated. Another reason the IRA shouldnt disband.

6) investments. I konw that sounds kinda funny but the IRA had so much spare cash at one stage that they invested it off shore.

The IRA doesnt sell its weapons. The dublin OC was courtmarshelled for leasing weapons found guilty and stood down. They said nothing more severe would be done because of ceasfire. His brother was one of the Judges.
Nobody wants their weapons. They are old and obsolete.

(Ps The IRA's anual income is actually down considerably and has been falling for some time now. There was a number of investigations recently over alligations of skimming funds, there was nearly going to be a split in the organisation. Things have been postponed for a year at the least, let things settle.)

Why is it so wrong/incredible that SF is funded this way? Consider the following allegations made by irish newspapers:
FF is funded by bribary, corruption, big business and tax evasion.
PD is funded by bribary, corruption, big business and tax evasion.
FG is funded by bribary, corruption, big business and the PUP (I thought that one was funny)
SWP is funded by the OIRA and counterfeiting.
GP is funded by unethical investment portfolios and neonatzi groups in europe.

Yes I think collusion should be investigated, but the majority of it was conducted by the Brits. It was official policy on many occasions and received the go ahead form No 10. I want ours investigated to prove that it was just lone officers who took some initiative. Also who were the targets in both cases?

Cork

The IRA's anual income is actually down considerably and has been falling for some time now.

Why, are the IRA still fund raising?

1)Their main income is smuggling

2)Counterfeit goods

3)fundraising in america and the UK.

Let us hope the CAB will investigate points 1 + 2.

bonkey

Originally posted by Johnny 5
This is exactly what i'm getting at, your speculating with no evidence. Your saying yes, the problems at the minute are caused by unionism, but you can rest assured republicans will eventually throw a spanner in the works for good.

No, thats not what I'm saying.

I'm saying that if the unionists played the same game the republicans are playing, then both sides would be faced with a very simple option :

Reach compromise on absolutely everything, immediately, or admit that this "we are the ones not holding things up any more, we are willing to play our part in the negotiations" was at least partly for show.

So, tell me, do you believe there is nothing the republicans wouldn't give up in the name of compromise? You honestly believe that where they are now is that perfect place where they will negotiate on the grounds fo what is best for Northern Ierland, as opposed to what is best for their own aims and goals?

No, I didn't think so....but I'm "pro-loyalist" for admitting that both sides are far from perfect?????

Right....

jc

Vader

Originally posted by Johnny 5
you can rest assured republicans will eventually throw a spanner in the works for good

Why?? because they are the ones making all the progress and the hard concessions (they cant force the IRAs hand but do do a lot) and that they are willing to talk to anybody about anything(unlike say the DUP)? That their ministers work on their breifs accross all divides and forget party politics for the good of NI (Im particularly thinking og McGuiness here). Because Sf do all this, and because you know secretly they hate doing good, they are planning to sabatoge everything they have worked for just as they are getting closer to their goals than ever before!

Are you a complete muppet?

capistrano

Originally posted by Vader
Why?? because they are the ones making all the progress and the hard concessions (they cant force the IRAs hand but do do a lot) and that they are willing to talk to anybody about anything(unlike say the DUP)? That their ministers work on their breifs accross all divides and forget party politics for the good of NI (Im particularly thinking og McGuiness here).

SF have done a good job in NI, but it's just not enough. It must be transparent that the IRA has "gone away, you know". It's six years now since the GFA, under which it was expected then that there would be full decommissioning within 2 years.

How many people would welcome SF in government in the republic now? I know I certainly wouldn't. The links with IRA are still there and even though they "talk the talk" of the peace process they are not yet fully prepared to "walk the walk".

Vader

I would welcome SF growth in the republic. It would make powersharing in the north more "real" to joe soap and show the unionists we're not hypocrites. It would also make SF act more responsibly. I wont vote for them but I might give them my No2
My preferences the hesh McCormac(because he tries so hard:D ), L(my real No 1),SF,G,FF,SWP,any indo,FG, PD

bonkey

Originally posted by Vader
Are you a complete muppet?

Calm down. You know the rules.

jc

Vader

It was a question:)

capistrano

Originally posted by Vader
I would welcome SF growth in the republic.

So you have no concerns about things like the cigarette lorry heist a copule of weeks ago that has widely be attributed to active IRA members from South Armagh? How can a democrat vote for a part with links to criminal organisations?

Vader

The answer to that q is in my long post on the last page.

capistrano

Vader, I've read your rant and I disagree with almost everything you said. Also, it's full of unsubstantiated allegations; FARC are not involved with drugs (???), IRA court-martial details et al.

There is a moral question here. People engaged in democratic politics should not have any involvement wiht criminality and while the IRA is still existing SF do not fit the bill.

I don't see why the IRA can't be disbanded. They have not further use. If SF want to follow the truely peaceful and democratic path then they should either publicly distance themselved from the IRA (a true separation not the kind of weasle-word we get now about them being a different organisation) or have the IRA disband fully.

I can't blame unionists for not wanting to sit in government with SF right now. I wouldn't have them in our governemnt right now either. But this can change; the ball is firmly in SF's court.

Vader

A rant? there's irony.

My comment on FARC, source: chomsky and independant news-like I said I wont go into it here.
IRA court martial, RM distributions
If you dont see why the IRA cant or shouldnt disband then you couldnt understand my post. It is safer to have them under some sort (all beit limited) control.
If SF were in power they would act more responsibibly. The act very well in NI, but hey I said that before.

Vader

Originally posted by capistrano
But this can change; the ball is firmly in SF's court.

Love it, very on topic actually. Its EVERYBODIES responsibility to bring about peacefull change.

*Tempted strongly by the darkside to say maore about poster but remembers bonkeys warning

Victor

Originally posted by Vader
Why is it so wrong/incredible that SF is funded this way? Consider the following allegations made by irish newspapers:
FF is funded by bribary, corruption, big business and tax evasion.
PD is funded by bribary, corruption, big business and tax evasion.
FG is funded by bribary, corruption, big business and the PUP (I thought that one was funny)
SWP is funded by the OIRA and counterfeiting.
GP is funded by unethical investment portfolios and neonatzi groups in europe.

Other than the well publicised examples of individuals and small groups engaging in systematic abuses, what evidence of this is there? Would you be willing to make the same comments before a judge and judge at a (series of) libel trial(s).

Vader

the SWP and GP allegations are well known as are the FF ones (when those ppl engaging in such abuses are ministers and lets not forget Haughy). As for FG and the PUP thats from the LVF paper

capistrano

Vader, the only party you left out of your list of shame is the labour party. So I guess you reckon that they are whiter than white.

Don't forget that they are backed by the trade union movement; the guys threating to hold our governemnt to ransom during Ireland's EU presidency, and all over what what is simply a matter of the reorganization of a statre company. The LP need to speak out against this kind of blackmail.

Vader

If Brennen cant handle the situation then hes an idiot. I dont bash labour because Im a labour supporter. Try bash labour and Ill try defend them.

capistrano

Originally posted by Vader
If Brennen cant handle the situation then hes an idiot. I dont bash labour because Im a labour supporter. Try bash labour and Ill try defend them.

And a labout minister would handle the situation by bending over letting the unions have their way; that's realy leadership!

Vader

woo you can read minds and tell the future, your some kind of super-capitalist. Dumass

capistrano

Originally posted by Vader
woo you can read minds and tell the future, your some kind of super-capitalist. Dumass

Ouch! Don't corner a pinko leftie - they're liable to lash out with all sorts of nonsensical jibberish.

BTW we have plenty of evidence of labout ministers in the past and they always do the unions' bidding.

Now this thread is boring me. Ciao baby!

Vader

Oh no Im boring you thats probably why your imagination is running away with you. Labour first and formost looks after the stability of the economy while protecting the welfare of the workers while guarding and augmenting the rights of citizens.

Im sorry if it makes capitalism and the exploitation of workers more difficult but you'll find it hard to peddle the "unions are evil and stiffle enterprise" line in Ireland.

Victor

Originally posted by Vader
the SWP and GP allegations are well known as are the FF ones (when those ppl engaging in such abuses are ministers and lets not forget Haughy). As for FG and the PUP thats from the LVF paper

Got any links?

SWP is funded by the OIRA and counterfeiting.

Perhaps you mean the the Workers Party (a separate organisation I believe) has links with the OIRA, who haven't been heard of in years (not since that actor guy got killed).

[GP is funded by unethical investment portfolios and neonatzi groups in europe.

I presume you are alluding to the portfolio of investments that Ciarán Cuffe inherited and then sold. The neo-Nazi bit just baffles me.

Vader

There was an article in the Tribune last summer (maybe the previous one) about the american secret service tracking this new american super doller (a perfect counterfeit of the $100 bill). They claimed that it was being produced by ex-KGB lads and distributed by (amongst others) the OIRA. Higgins, the socialist workers party's only TD is reputed to be a senior OIRA man and was under servailence from the secret service


Re: Neo Natzi-- Do you remember comming up to Nice (or was it Nice2?) the primetime yolk on the Gp that outlined their links to the wider network of GPs throughout europe. They showed footage of one of the greens (I think it was Sargent) giving a talk at this fundraiser on the continant in which the audience were unmistakable neo natzis. The place was decked in swatzicas and banners and everything.

Ciarán Cuffe didnt seem in any hurry to sell them before the media coverage.

Origonally posted by Vader
Consider the following allegations made by irish newspapers:

sceptre

Originally posted by Vader
Re: Neo Natzi-- Do you remember comming up to Nice (or was it Nice2?) the primetime yolk on the Gp that outlined their links to the wider network of GPs throughout europe. They showed footage of one of the greens (I think it was Sargent) giving a talk at this fundraiser on the continant in which the audience were unmistakable neo natzis. The place was decked in swatzicas and banners and everything.

Er, wasn't that Justin Barrett? Youth Defence or whatever they're called these days? Did one of the greens go to a fascist conference as well?

SWP is funded by the OIRA and counterfeiting.

Keeping in mind that I'm not a member of any political party, it's a bit ironic that a self-professed Labour supporter is passing out comments about possible connections between the OIRA and the SWP, given the link between the Worker's party ("link" being "political wing of the OIRA") as precursor to Democratic left and that organisation. Wouldn't have brought it up if you hadn't been playing the unsubstantiated rumours game first:) Please don't play that card again, it'll just make the card dealer look silly when people reply.

Victor

Originally posted by Vader
There was an article in the Tribune last summer (maybe the previous one) about the american secret service tracking this new american super doller (a perfect counterfeit of the $100 bill). They claimed that it was being produced by ex-KGB lads and distributed by (amongst others) the OIRA. Higgins, the socialist workers party's only TD is reputed to be a senior OIRA man and was under servailence from the secret service

The WP, SWP and the SP are three different parties, usually at each other's throats. Do you have **any** links to such allegations?

Originally posted by Vader
Ciarán Cuffe didnt seem in any hurry to sell them before the media coverage.

As I understand it he had just inherited them, following the **death** of a relation. It's unusual for people in such circumstances to say "wahoo, lets sell some shares and get coke and strippers".