wifi and petrol station safety

eth0_ · 22-12-2003 10:26am #1

I was wondering....you know how you aren't supposed to use a mobile phone near a petrol pump? What's the deal with wi-fi devices? Can anyone point me to any url's on safety compliancy?

BrianD · 22-12-2003 12:35pm

Interestingly, there is zip research to show that there is any safety implications of using a mobile phone in a petrol station ... it's an unfounded fear thing created in America!

I believe that there is a new set of legislation that will fine you if you use a mobile in a petrol station coming into effect soon.

BTW why would you want to use awi-fi device in a petrol station??

eth0_ · 22-12-2003 1:08pm

Originally posted by BrianD

BTW why would you want to use awi-fi device in a petrol station??

Not me...I work for a 'Large networking company' and a customer is a petrol station owned by a large supermarket chain in the UK, they were wondering if there was a risk using handheld wifi devices on the forecourt.

Found something on snopes about it....seems like there's been no incident of mobile phones causing a fire in a petrol station, and no one has proven it is even possible!

Third_Echelon · 22-12-2003 1:13pm

mobile phones use microwaves which in theory could set petrol alight.. but as you have said this isnt proven..

wi-fi doesnt use microwaves... it uses radio-waves.. just like 2fm and the likes... not harmful...

seamus · 22-12-2003 1:32pm

Mobile Phones are banned in Petrol stations because they interfere with the pump mechanism in some pumps, causing an incorrect readout. Such interference is rare. However, the oil companies are interested in protecting their profits. If people relised they could get cheaper petrol by making a call, and putting the phone beside the pump, there'd be trouble.

Originally, the signs just said do not use phones at the pump, and it was not included as part of the fire risk. But people assumed there was some fire risk. And so gradually, somehow, fear has spread that mobile phones can ignite petrol. They can't.

viking · 22-12-2003 1:50pm

Anyone watch Brainiac on Sky One recently where they tested whether mobile phones were potentially a fire risk around petrol?

They soaked the inside of a caravan with petrol and put all the TV crew's mobiles (about 10) inside the caravan and called all the mobiles at the same time to see if the caravan would explode. Nothing happened.

What they did discover is that static electricity is more of a danger around petrol stations. A single static spark from clothing would be enough to ignite petrol fumes and cause a massive explosion.

They demostrated this by connecting an electric wire to the caravan full of petrol, getting someone wearing nylon to stand in a basin of water (to prevent them from being earthed) and having them generate static by jogging on the spot. As soon as the guy put his finger near the electric wire connected to the caravan, a spark could be seen jumping from his finger to the cable and then the caravan exploded!

It was a pretty cool experiment if I do say so myself.

viking

seamus · 22-12-2003 1:59pm

Originally posted by viking
Anyone watch Brainiac on Sky One recently where they tested whether mobile phones were potentially a fire risk around petrol?

I was just about to edit my post to include that

I thought it wasn't real (ie that the spark and explosion were faked) until I watched it over again, and saw the other stuff that they did.

So conclusion eth0_ - it's perfectly safe

eth0_ · 22-12-2003 2:16pm

Originally posted by viking

What they did discover is that static electricity is more of a danger around petrol stations. A single static spark from clothing would be enough to ignite petrol fumes and cause a massive explosion.

Wow! That's nuts! http://www.snopes.com/autos/hazards/static.asp
I don't think I believe the thing about mobiles interfering with petrol read outs though.

BrianD · 22-12-2003 2:31pm

I suppose there could be some problem with electronic pumps. However, I would well believe that petrol retailers would try and make a "safety issue" out of mobile usage if it was affecting their bottom line.

yellum · 22-12-2003 3:05pm

Originally posted by BrianD
Interestingly, there is zip research to show that there is any safety implications of using a mobile phone in a petrol station ... it's an unfounded fear thing created in America!

My company works very closely with the oil industry, from building the oil wells to making the pumps in the stations. There actually has been research about a few incidents of explosions at petrol pumps when people are on mobile calls.

The conclusion was that it was static not the mobile that caused the explosions. They are researching it more though. Since that keeps them in a job.

BTW why would you want to use awi-fi device in a petrol station??

Lots of Petrol Stations are becoming WiFi enabled for long distance commuters who want to check email every few 100 miles. So they pull in and check email or browse the web on a fast connection. 3G isn't here yet ...

yellum · 22-12-2003 3:07pm

Originally posted by Third_Echelon

wi-fi doesnt use microwaves... it uses radio-waves.. just like 2fm and the likes... not harmful...

WiFi is Microwave. It operates at the same frequency. Around the 2.5ghz range. Thats why your Microwave oven will interfere with WiFi. Thats why water is such a problem for 2.5ghx flavour of WiFi.

bminish · 22-12-2003 3:51pm

Microwaves ARE radiowaves also called Electromagnetic radiation, Light is Electromagnetic radiation too

here's a spectrum chart
http://www.adec.edu/tag/spectrum.html

Petrol stations
Fire safety
Anything that causes a spark is a problem and Higher Powered 2 way radios present a slight spark risk because they could energize nearby metal conductors sufficiently to cause a spark. Bloody unlikely though, especially considering how well everything is earth bonded in Petrol stations.
By higher powered I am referring to 25w or more from VHF or UHF commercial 2 way radio not the 0.2w or so from a mobile phone or the 0.1w Max from WiFi devices !

EMC issues with pumps

I have heard that some older electronic pumps were sensitive to nearby radio transmissions which would cause erroneous readings, I doubt this is the case with more modern pumps. It is extremely unlikely that any correctly working pump would be sufficiently sensitive to radio waves to be affected by low power signals such as WiFi or Mobile phones.

WiFi on the forecourt should present no safety issues but all those chain smoking sales reps might ;-)

.Brendan

Capt'n Midnight · 24-12-2003 2:20am

Originally posted by bminish
I have heard that some older electronic pumps were sensitive to nearby radio transmissions which would cause erroneous readings

Yeah the old pumps were affected by CB's - but CB's and Mobile chuck out much more power than WiFi (100mw EIRP max in EU - usually the cards are only 30mW about the same power as a bright LED)

If static is such a big problem - why aren't there grounding brushes on the forecourt ?

/me thinks it's to prevent people cheating

demanufactured · 24-12-2003 2:42am

the only risk with mobiles in petrol stations is the fire risk , i know i worked for statoil for years , we were shown videos of people filling there cars whie on the phone , and all of a sudden they would combust

phaxx · 24-12-2003 2:57am

I always thought it was because of the battery, and how that could produce a little spark when it's connected/disconnected, like if you dropped your phone and the battery popped off.

*shrug*

Capt'n Midnight · 24-12-2003 10:09am

Originally posted by phaxx
I always thought it was because of the battery, and how that could produce a little spark when it's connected/disconnected, like if you dropped your phone and the battery popped off.

Wouldn't you still get that spark even if the phone was turned off ?

If they were interested in safety then pumps would not be self service - instead properly trained attendents (with no electronic or metalic objects) and in antistatic suits would fill your tank - and only after confirming that the engine ,lights , radio and other electrical stuff in the car was turned off.

Snowbat · 25-12-2003 2:09am

Originally posted by phaxx
I always thought it was because of the battery, and how that could produce a little spark when it's connected/disconnected,

As I recall, the CENELEC-approved version of the GP900 and matching battery (for use in oil/gas industry) have a peculiar batttery terminal arrangement for exactly that reason.

http://www.bpmultipage.ie/radio/conventional/motorola6P900.htm
http://www.bpmultipage.ie/radio/conventional/cenelec.htm

bminish · 25-12-2003 3:23pm

There's a fuel depot here in Castlebar that just sells Diesel, paraffin and home heating oil.

Please switch off Mobile phones signs are everywhere ! Somehow I suspect that it, in this case anyway has nothing to do with risk of explosion. Like most people I ignore these warning signs.

Are there ANY actual Documented cases of mobile phones causing a fire or explosion at a petrol station?

If you are worried about sparks in petrol stations then please don't look at your starter motor when it is turning. The whole mobile phone thing is an Urban legend.

.Brendan

eth0_ · 25-12-2003 3:36pm

Originally posted by demanufactured
the only risk with mobiles in petrol stations is the fire risk , i know i worked for statoil for years , we were shown videos of people filling there cars whie on the phone , and all of a sudden they would combust

That is amazing disinformation from a company as big as statoil. I had a look into all this the other day, and could find no evidence of a mobile phone causing a fire in a petrol station.

For one, there are valves on the petrol nozzles and hoses which prevent anything getting in, like air, for instance. You can't have a fire without oxygen. Also, the tanks underground should be airless too, for the same reason.

longword · 25-12-2003 4:17pm

I would have thought the risk would be from ambient hydrocarbon fumes rather than liquid, and from the battery or internals of the phone rather than the exceptionally weak RF transmission. We've all read the occasional stories of a phone battery exploding without the aid of petrol.

Capt'n Midnight · 25-12-2003 8:26pm

Batteries exploding - you should be using genuine Nokia batteries.
[note to self] lay off the sarcasm.

spongebob · 27-12-2003 11:56pm

Skanger clothing (shiny synthetic tracksuits) are also a static electricity risk, I have an idea about an interesting Brainiac experiment possibility.

M

Capt'n Midnight · 28-12-2003 12:09am

IIRC Microwave ovens are allowed to "leak" about 10 times as much radiation at similar frequencies (one watt) as WiFi cards produce.

Muck - for a second I thought of rubbing two tracksuits together, then I realised that experiment has already been done in the back of many cars/vans.. Lets hope they had tinted glass. Now how do I get that image out of my mind ?

Stephen · 28-12-2003 5:21pm

Sure the pumps have valves and seals and all that, but that won't make a difference with random muppets spilling petrol all over the place. I remember when I used to work in a petrol station, there'd regularly be morons spilling petrol on the forecourt. And other morons smoking cigarettes wondering why we wouldn't turn on the pumps.

some people should be removed from the gene pool.

Victor · 28-12-2003 6:04pm

Originally posted by Stephen
some people should be removed from the gene pool.

Shame on you for stopping Darwin in his work

Petrol and similar fuel are a greater hazard in their vapour form - as you fill your tank with petrol, petrol vapour leaves the tanks, there is also the matter of spillages on the vehicle and forecourt.

People on their mobile phone will be less attentive to the filling of the tank, leading to the greater possibility of accidents. It still needs a source of ignition - the car itself (hot engine, exhaust), static electricity and cigarettes are probably greater risks than the phone. They also hog forecourt space.

However, if you do blow up the petrol station, you can't say they didn't warn you.

echomadman · 31-12-2003 7:41pm

Skanger clothing (shiny synthetic tracksuits) are also a static electricity risk, I have an idea about an interesting Brainiac experiment possibility.

Lure them into an oxygen and petrol vapour rich environment, and then earth them?

Do you have a newsletter i can subscribe to, your ideas are fascinating to me

vibe666 · 17-01-2004 4:36pm

Originally posted by Stephen
some people should be removed from the gene pool.

if you'd made a point of turning on the pumps and letting them get on with it, chances are they would have been.

then they could have got a mention here: http://www.darwinawards.com/

darwinian theory in practice.

wifi and petrol station safety

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