[Article] Ray Burke paid €41,492 pension as ex-minister

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
No alone are government TDs claiming expenses.
Opposition TDs are.

I'm not sure if you're defending their unethical expenses claims or damning their educational policies here Cork...

Through out the whole public sector expenses are claimed. These expenses were allowed.

CJH's unethical expenses were also allowed, but that didn't make them right.
Same story with Harney's expenses.
Tell me, if she'd charged for male escort expenses on the grounds that it was good for her mental health, would you be defending her?

Do you think the Controller & Auditor General is not doing his job?

Correct.

Cork

Who should set what expenses are allowable & disallowable?

These are surely already set.

We demand our politicians look well and then bemoan that they spend money on make up.

These are legitimate expenses. More power to Mary Harney.

Compare her record on taxes and Jobs to that of previous administrations.

Her record in one of achievement.

They must be rules administering the expenses system.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Cork
We demand our politicians look well and then bemoan that they spend money on make up.

No one demands that they spend that amount of our money on making themselves look nice.
Seriously Cork, they earn enough money as it is, they can afford to pay for a haircut themselves.

Cork

Originally posted by Frank Grimes

Seriously Cork, they earn enough money as it is, they can afford to pay for a haircut themselves.

Should they pay for postage, telephone, constituecy office, personal assistants, recearch facilities etc?

If certain expenses are allowed - whats the problem?

Mary Harney has done absolutely done nothing wrong.

There was a Mininister a number of years ago (Not from FF or the PDs) who stayed at the Waldolf Astoria hotel.

If these were not legitimate expenses - they would not be allowed.

Cork I can't believe you are trying to defend expenses on such a lavish scale for hair and make up.

Regarding the waldorf, it's standard fare compared to where most government ministers would stay from whatever country when away from home on ministerial business.

On that note, I saw our minister for Europe Dick Roche seated in 2d business class on the cityjet flight I was on to paris a few weeks ago.He was working right throughout the flight from what I could see and was collected at the steps of the plane in CDG and whisked away in a merc. I have no doubt that he was staying in an expensive hotel, and not a one star or a hostel.

Such things are a given when ministers go on foreign travel doing their work.
Lavish make up and hair styling shouldn't be included in the expense sheet, they make no contribution to the job being done whatso ever.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Cork
If certain expenses are allowed - whats the problem?

If she decided tomorrow that she needs to consult tarot readers and psychics before making decisions, should we pay for them aswell?
And before you say anything, it makes as much sense as us having to pay for her lipstick.

Cork

By doing a pretty quick search of google - I found a link that shows in the period 98-99. People from many political partys claiming expenses:

This might be big news to some of you.

Linlk

You'd think that the Taliban were in power.

Buying make up is common with Irish women.

Legitimate expenses are legitimate expenses.

Legitimate expenses were claimed & allowed.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Cork
Some soundbite

Nobody is saying she shouldn't buy makeup Cork, no one is saying that she shouldn't buy makeup because she's a woman either (if that's what it is you're trying to imply).
People are saying that we as tax payers should not have to foot the bill for her or any other politician's beauty products.
They are not legitimate expenses. Do you think she only wore the makeup while on government business? Did she put away the haircut that we paid for while she wasn't working? I don't think so. If you believe they're entitled to waste our money in this way, why don't you donate money to her or buy her a gift voucher for Brown Thomas.
I don't see why the money I pay in taxes should be pissed away like this.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Frank Grimes

They are not legitimate expenses. Do you think she only wore the makeup while on government business? Did she put away the haircut that we paid for while she wasn't working? I don't think so. If you believe they're entitled to waste our money in this way, why don't you donate money to her or buy her a gift voucher for Brown Thomas.

Maybe Charlie McCreevy could charge her BIK for the time she spends wearing that haircut outside of business hours?

While these expenses may be allowed under the rules that govern expense claims, I find it hard to believe that anyone can claim they are justifiable. Legitimate does not equal ethical in this case.

I think a vast number of our political representatives are living in a fantasy world. And thats representatives of all political parties.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


You'd think that the Taliban were in power.

Buying make up is common with Irish women.

They pay for their own cosmetics with their income Cork, not their employers money. Since you won't tell us what you work at Cork (and why should you, I agree...), can you at least tell us if your employer pays for €15000 worth of cosmetics and haircuts for your female colleagues a year? I know mine doesn't.

Lets look at in PD speak. As a shareholder in Ireland Inc. I am disgusted that my investment is being wasted on such frivolous expenditure as hair and make-up. It reduces my return on my investment.

*edit for spelling*

star gazer

maybe they could use the money spent on cosmetics to supplement Ray Burkes pension instead. With all the legal bills coming up it would come in very handy for him.

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone
Maybe Charlie McCreevy could charge her BIK for the time she spends wearing that haircut outside of business hours?

This is a good point. But it would be impractical to implement.

People claiming mobile phone bills as expenses - Should these be vetted to route out private calls.

Similarly - people making private calls from work or using the internet at work.

Administration would not be cost effective.

Mary Harney is in a job that these are legitimate expenses.

Some people are in jobs were their employer pays for training courses (some at tax payers expense) and some employers don't pay for training courses.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


Mary Harney is in a job that these are legitimate expenses.

At what point would you say she's spending too much Cork? What if she claimed she needed to spend €30000 a year on cosmetics and hair-dos? Or what if she came over all Imelda Marcos, and bought herself a feck load of shoes at the taxpayers expense? We all know how important it is for a lady to accessorise after all...

Point is Cork, her expenses for cosmetics are excessive. Difficult or not to administer, she should do the decent thing herself, and not claim the bloody things. This is a woman who claimed her party would bring standards back to public life. B**l****. Could she not have paid for them out of her 30% pay increase? You know, that pay increase she got for doing feck all extra...

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone
This is a woman who claimed her party would bring standards back to public life. B**l****. Could she not have paid for them out of her 30% pay increase? You know, that pay increase she got for doing feck all extra...

She is a women of pretty high political standards.

Pay Increases accross the public sector were awarded independently.

Increased producity under the bench marking deal is surposed to be verifyable.

Could people accross the whole public sector pay for expenses out of their own pocket?

There is a system already in place.

Like or Loath that system. Mary Harney did absolutely nothing wrong.

Many governments made up of many political partys and indepedents could have changed that system if the so desired.

therecklessone

Originally posted by therecklessone
At what point would you say she's spending too much Cork? What if she claimed she needed to spend €30000 a year on cosmetics and hair-dos? Or what if she came over all Imelda Marcos, and bought herself a feck load of shoes at the taxpayers expense? We all know how important it is for a lady to accessorise after all...

Any chance of an answer?

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Cork
People claiming mobile phone bills as expenses - Should these be vetted to route out private calls.

It does happen in a lot of companies.

Mary Harney is in a job that these are legitimate expenses.

That amount of money on haircuts or makeup is not legitimate.

Some people are in jobs were their employer pays for training courses (some at tax payers expense) and some employers don't pay for training courses.

What has this got to do with anything? Anyway, at least there is some sort of value for money from sending employees on courses to increase their skills.

I've asked it and so has therecklessone. When is enough enough Cork? Or is it always a case of "the leader is good, the leader is great"?

sovtek

Originally posted by Cork
Do you think that US citizens give out about the make up worn by the Dick Chaney?

Being that he has more serious crimes to answer for...this citizen wouldn't... still doesn't answer for the lopsided priorities of Bertie and friends.

Cork

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
When is enough enough Cork? Or is it always a case of "the leader is good, the leader is great"?

Enough Is Enough - when we criticise decent and hourable politicians for claiming some make - up as expenses. Where is the harm?

Mary Harney is in the public eye. She goes to many media events & is very hard working.

How much does Pat Kenny use in make up?

There is one diffence - Pat Kenny is a talk Show host, Mary Harney is Tainaiste of our country.

Mary Harney is in the public eye 24/7 in a media age - I think that She is one of the few in Politics that has shown much courage & intergrity over the years.

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Cork
Enough Is Enough - when we criticise decent and hourable politicians for claiming some make - up as expenses. Where is the harm?

I'd hardly consider 15 grand's worth some.
What would you consider to be too much?

Cork

I don't apprar on TV most days , attend meetings to try and get jobs into the country or attend policy presentations.

But as a % of total expenses claimed by TDs from all political partys - It is small.

It is the licence payer who is part supporting RTE - How much make up does Pat Kenny or Joe Duffy wear?

When Politicians arrive at RTE - Do they not go to make up?

Do certain partys object to the use of make up?

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Enough Is Enough - when we criticise decent and hourable politicians for claiming some make - up as expenses. Where is the harm?

Hypothetical situation.

Next year she claims €100,000 for cosmetics and hair-dos. Will enough be enough then?

It must get lonely with your head stuck in the sand all day Ostrich...sorry, I mean Cork...

Frank Grimes

Originally posted by Cork
But as a % of total expenses claimed by TDs from all political partys - It is small.

Ok, I know you have no grip on reality. But believe it or not, some people in Ireland don't have €15,000 a year to live on let alone spend on makeup.
What would you say to people on minimum wage/social welfare to justify Mary's spending habits?

Cork

Originally posted by Frank Grimes
Ok, I know you have no grip on reality. But believe it or not, some people in Ireland don't have €15,000 a year to live on let alone spend on makeup.
What would you say to people on minimum wage/social welfare to justify Mary's spending habits?

Today - Ireland has the presidentcy of the EU. It will cost the state millions. Yet, should we refuse this event on the basis of cost??

The minimum wage was introduced by a FF/PD government. Before this people were completely expioted in paid employment.

We live in a modern democracy. TDs claim and are awarded expenses. If we are to attract decent people into politics we have got to accept this.

It is a feature of many democracys. We live in a media/TV age - where much information is communicated via TV and media presentations.

Yet - People see no problem with TDs claiming expenses for stamps, petrol, staff etc. But make up? We live in 2004 not 1944. Look around you - we live in an age of breaking news.

Now what % does €15,000 represent of the social welfare budget?

Say to the nearest 2 decimal places?

Zero

What would you say to people on minimum wage/social welfare to justify Mary's spending habits?

Long-term unemployment has fallen to below 2%.
Unemployment fallen belowf 5%.

ompare these figures with those of previous Irish administrations & it is hard not to be impressed with Mary Harney.

Are there TDs in Dail who don't claim expenses? Expenses are part & parcel of many organisations.

Look beyomd tabloidisation of politics. TDs are enttitled to claim expenses.

And Finally, I would see what TDs are questioning these expenses to examine their expense records?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
(Rather irrelevant rubbish soundbites)

Ignoring the question. Where would you draw the line? How much? In euros. In other words, in case you can't understand, in your opinion how much money should Mary Harney be allowed to claim for in haircuts, makeup, pedicures and spot cream?

Cork

Are people aganist TDs claiming for make up?

Why? We live in a media age.

& thankfully, the Taliban are not in power or some sort of conservative moral crusaders who are aganist the use of make up.

Are people aganist the amount of make up that was claimed over a period?

How much should a male or female politician then claim?

What annoys me is Mary Harney is such a decent politician - and people moaning about claiming for a bit of make up.

Such expense claims are legitimate.

How much does RTE spend on Make up?
How much does Enda Kenny Claim or even Pat Rabbitt?

sceptre, Where did this government change the rules governing the administration of expenses?

Cork

Originally posted by sceptre
Ignoring the question. Where would you draw the line? How much? In euros. In other words, in case you can't understand, in your opinion how much money should Mary Harney be allowed to claim for in haircuts, makeup, pedicures and spot cream?

Is anybody on this thread a beutician so as we need to know how much a lady Taonaiste (prime minister) should spend on "haircuts, makeup, pedicures and spot cream"?

Sparks

I wonder if she recycles her used makeup containers....

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Is anybody on this thread a beutician so as we need to know how much a lady Taonaiste (prime minister) should spend on "haircuts, makeup, pedicures and spot cream"?

Who needs an expert?

€15000 a year is €1250 a month. A haircut shouldn't cost her any more than €100 at a time. Its not as if she's getting extensions or anything. Looks like a simple cut and blowdry to me. Maybe a colour put in once in a while. So lets say 4 haircuts a month, at €100 a time. That leaves her €850[/i] a month for her cosmetics!!! Does she need to cover up that much?

Does Mary Harney not shop around? I'd say she would, if it was her own money she had to spend...

Cork, you should have got yourself a job in PR for Charlie Haughey.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Is anybody on this thread a beutician so as we need to know how much a lady Taonaiste (prime minister) should spend on "haircuts, makeup, pedicures and spot cream"?

Does Tanaiste mean Prime Minister? I'm not that hot as gaeilge...

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone
Who needs an expert?

€15000 a year is €1250 a month. A haircut shouldn't cost her any more than €100 at a time. Its not as if she's getting extensions or anything. Looks like a simple cut and blowdry to me. Maybe a colour put in once in a while. So lets say 4 haircuts a month, at €100 a time. That leaves her €850[/i] a month for her cosmetics!!! Does she need to cover up that much?

I would not be any good at costing cosmetics. But people in the public eye do use much make-up and spend time on personal grooming.

She is the Tainaiste of this country so I am not too worried about how many hair cuts she takes?

As the Tainaiste and Minister for trade ENTREPRISE & EMPLOYMENT - She is very hard working.

I am no authority to determine whether such expenses are excessive. Do hairdressers or Beauticians come to Government Buildings? Does any body contributing to this thread even have the details of the expenses?

It is a pity there are not many TDS as hard working and as honest as Mary Harney in the Dail.