McDowell closes Spike and Curragh jails

dahamsta

Nice Christmas pressie for the prison officers. Looks like we'll have to hold off on sticking CJ in jail for a while more.

McDowell announces closure of four prisons
02/01/2004 - 6:29:07 pm

The Minister for Justice, Michael McDowell, has announced the closure of four prisons in a bid to cut the overtime bill within the Prison Service.

It follows the failure of ongoing talks at the Labour Relations Commission to find a compromise with prison officers on a new roster and overtime system.

Two are to close permanently: The Curragh will shut on January 19 and Fort Mitchell, on Spike Island in County Cork, will close on January 31.

[...]

Last paragraph (in the full article) is interesting too. Privatise, privatise, privatise, the credo of the right-wing muppet.

adam

Cork

Originally posted by dahamsta


Last paragraph (in the full article) is interesting too. Privatise, privatise, privatise, the credo of the right-wing muppet.

adam

Cutting back on prison overtime of 60 million euro.

This is the situation in state run prisons.

How can you run an organisation with a 60 million over time bill?

What should be obtained is value for money.

Fair Play to Michael McDowell.

gandalf

Well speaking as someone who has relatives and one very close friend working in the prison service all I can say is that McDowell has mismanaged this situation quite dreadfully. We are going into a EU presidency where the states already stretched security services are going to have to cover for the prison officers who will be (unless there is a major climb down) going on strike as they are being pushed into a corner by this idiot.

I do not blame them either. The hamfisted way McDowell has handled this situation is quite pathetic and some of the stories I have heard first hand from people working within the Services makes me wonder why the hell they work in these jobs in the first place.

Cork stop spouting soundbites about a subject that you do not have any knowledge or experience of.

Oh course McDowell is the same man that promised 1500 more Gardai on the beat who never materialised.

Gandalf.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Cork
Cutting back on prison overtime of 60 million euro.

This is the situation in state run prisons.

How can you run an organisation with a 60 million over time bill?

What should be obtained is value for money.

Fair Play to Michael McDowell.

Ah yes, cos it really is that simple :rolleyes:

[edit] Fair play to gandalf who got there just before me [/edit]

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Cutting back on prison overtime of 60 million euro.

This is the situation in state run prisons.

How can you run an organisation with a 60 million over time bill?

What should be obtained is value for money.

Fair Play to Michael McDowell.

Surprise surprise.

Overtime suggests they don't have enough staff to cover all their requirements, either due to sickleave/annual leave or understaffing in theservice as a whole.

If value for money was the primary concern we could always make prisoners families pay for their incarceration. Maybe demand that they provide fodd and clothing for them? How about we get our prison population into chain gangs, and out to the port tunnel for 8 hours a day. :rolleyes:

Cork

Of course, we need value for money in public services.

I think negottiations bewteen the government and unions have gone on for years. From a value for Money point of view - The government can't continue footing the bill for €60 million in overtime payments to one organisation.

Do you think Michael O Leary - would tolerate a €60 million over time bill?

But according to Joe Costello "there is agreement between the POA and the minister on the amount to be saved" but "two sides have been unable to agree on the mechanism to achieve the required cuts".

Gandalf, the whole situation needs swift resolution. The threat of prison closures should focus minds to resolve this.

McDowell could have handled the situation better. But with a 60 million overtime bill - from a cost point of view - the sooner that this one is resolved the better.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork


Gandalf, the whole situation needs swift resolution. The threat of prison closures should focus minds to resolve this.

No, it will mean less prison cells for convicted criminals.

What happens if the POA don't get the message. Close another two?

I love this governments attitude to industrial relations. They don't get their way so they jump up and down like 5 year olds. McDowell taking the ball home again?

Cork

The Cabinet approved these contingency plans last November amid signs that the six-year dispute between prison management and staff about overtime had moved no closer to resolution.

Six Year Dispute - It should not even take months to cut down on massive over time bills. This despute needs resolution ASAP.

No, it will mean less prison cells for convicted criminals.

Mr McDowell said yesterday the closures could be reversed or cancelled if ongoing talks at the Labour Relations Commission with the Prison Officers' Association prove successful.

The Threat of prisons closures should focus minds in getting this resolved. It cannot drag on for another 6 months not mind another 6 years.

After efforts in recent days failed to resolve the dispute about the overtime bill - some €64 million in 2003 - Mr McDowell yesterday

€1.23 million of taxpayers money a week on prison overtime. This despute needs resolution. Both sides need to utilise the Labour Relations Commission to sort this one out ASAP.


Irish Times

therecklessone

Was it necessary overtime Cork?

When our government saw fit to send military and police resources to Shannon last year, it cost money. Have a problem with that?

The EU presidency will no doubt see the Gada overtime bill soar, will McDowell shut a few stations as a result?

Cork

Was it necessary overtime Cork?

Yes - most certainly.

Both sides admit savings can be made.

Let us hope that they use the facilities of the Labour Relations Commission to resolve this one.

Maybe with extra recruitment or changes in work practices - over time costs can be slashed.

Redleslie

Originally posted by dahamsta

Last paragraph (in the full article) is interesting too. Privatise, privatise, privatise, the credo of the right-wing muppet.

adam

Liz O'Donnell's hubby is a director of Group 4 according to some PO's in Mountjoy I was talking to recently. If it's true, then that'll probably hit the papers before long. I'd been in there for work purposes and got given a tour (anyone can get a tour apparently) and it's much worse than I thought it'd be. Couldn't wait to get out. The PO's also said that since the staff canteen was privatised, the quality has gone to buggery so they have to go elsewhere.

gandalf

Well then Cork I suppose you were up in arms about the waste of money on a new government jet or the extreme over runs in costs for Luas, the M50 and countless other state schemes.

Some thing like this should take time to resolve. These people have a very difficult Job to do and one which a majority of us would not take for 3 or 4 times the money they get.

60 million is chicken feed compared to the wastage in the Health Service or how about cutting back on the 8 million in State Pensions for Ex Government Ministers, especially ones like Mr. Burke who abused their state positions for personal gain or Charlie Haughey who evaded tax.

I can tell you one thing Cork from talking to the people I know in the service. Their moral is at an all time low. The really good educated people are going to start leaving in their droves and this includes those that have been educated by the state from within their jobs. Those that are left will be fighting this for the long haul. The main question here is why is there a massive overtime bill, the obvious answer is there are not enough Prison Officers so why doesn't that "genius" McDowell recruit more eh (or is this back to the extra Gardai situation eh, vapourware!!!).

It strikes me that this Government are very good at attacking the Civil Servants that are Vocation based because they can blackmail them that they are affecting the publics health, security or education but from what I can see the real wastage occurs in the main Civil Service Departments and the Local Authorities but we hear of absolutely nothing being done to sort these out. Basically as suspected the Government are a pack of cowards without a backbone between the lot of them.

Gandalf.

Cork

Originally posted by gandalf

the obvious answer is there are not enough Prison Officers so why doesn't that "genius" McDowell recruit more eh (or is this back to the extra Gardai situation eh, vapourware!!!).

I can see the real wastage occurs in the main Civil Service Departments and the Local Authorities but we hear of absolutely nothing being done to sort these out.

Gandalf.

I would 100% agree that wastage across the public sector needs to be tackled.

Teachers getting 3 months holidays. This was fine when kids were needed for the harvest. But what effect does long holidays have on kid's litreacy?

TDs getting long Christmas, Easter & Summer Holidays is wrong.

Public services like Fas need evaluation big time.

Prison Officers have indeed a hard job to do. It was bad during "the trobles". Today we have gangland crime in this country. It is not an easy job.

Prison Officer Unions acknowledge that savings can be made. Let us hope that they'll come to an agreement and sort this out.

dahamsta

How about the items gandalf specifically listed Cork?

adam

Cork

Originally posted by dahamsta
How about the items gandalf specifically listed Cork?

adam

I acknowledged that wastage of public moneys needs to be cut.
I acknowledged the difficult work done by Prison Officers.
I also expressed a hope that this despute will be settled quickly.

I am not in a position to comment on the moral within the service. (I know 1 prison officer and our paths did not cross in a while).

If there is any other clarification - you want - let me know.

dahamsta

Sound bite, sound bite, sound bite. You're actually a pol aren't you? Here's what Victor specifically asked about:

- new government jet
- over runs in costs for Luas
- M50
- wastage in the Health Service
- 8 million in State Pensions for Ex Government Ministers
- especially ones like Mr. Burke who abused their state positions for personal gain
- or Charlie Haughey who evaded tax.

Less of your picking and choosing now Cork, answer the questions you're asked.

adam

Cork

[QUOTE- new government jet
- over runs in costs for Luas
- M50
- wastage in the Health Service
- 8 million in State Pensions for Ex Government Ministers
- especially ones like Mr. Burke who abused their state positions for personal gain
- or Charlie Haughey who evaded tax.
[/QUOTE]

Government Jet - FG, Lab. PD & FF all have no objection using Government Jet. The old one needed replacement and the new one was financed out of savings.


Luas, Health Service & M50 Cost Over-Runs. I am aganist. With regards to capital projects - set price contracts are the way to go. Management Structures in the Health Service need to be over hauled & hopefully the Hanley report will be IMPLEMENTED IN FULL.

million in State Pensions for Ex Government Ministers
- especially ones like Mr. Burke who abused their state positions for personal gain
- or Charlie Haughey who evaded tax.

How many evaded tax thru off shore non resident bank accounts. Are their pensions now to be withheld as punishment? I think that if they settle up with the revenue (paying interest & peneltys) - why should the state sanction them further?

TheFin

now the next step is to round up the prison officers, those who are not sick, down the bookies, and put them in one of the prisons which are still open tillthey learn to behave like humans. Bloody civil servants! next we clear out the ESB, RTE, etc. Six years giving the government the run around - its also called taking the piss. Thank god someone wants to drag Ireland into the 20th century (yes I know its the 21st but even I'm not that optimistic)

From a Fine Gael voter in Cork

swiss

Originally posted by Cork:

What should be obtained is value for money.

*Boggle*

No, seriously. *boggle*.

This is from the same poster that defended Mary Harneys right to charge €15,000 to the taxpayer for personal grooming expenses.

Right, I can't claim any special knowledge of the prison service or of general staffing levels of prison officers, but from everything I hear from the media and the government, there are not enough prison officers - hence those that are there work a lot of overtime. Security and safety of the populace is (or rather - should be) one of the primary concerns of the state. In a country where dangerous felons are already getting ridiculously short sentences because of the lack of available places to incarcerate them I find it astonishing that our justice minister would furthur exacerbate this problem by shutting two of our prisons. Not alone does he do that, he then implies that it is the fault of prison officers for working too hard. This demonstrates either an ineptitude of enormous magnitude on the part of Michael McDowell, or an arrogance of an equal magnitude. I haven't quite decided which it is.

Being a prison officer is not like being a teacher. Dealing with unruly children is nothing like dealing with a dangerous criminal. It is not a job I would enjoy doing, and I would not do it unless I was paid a significant amount of money to do it. Now those who have entered this profession are left with the prospect of being jobless. No wonder morale is low.

Sparks

Originally posted by TheFin
From a Fine Gael voter in Cork

Dear god, what a mental image. I do hope you're using some form of protection...

Cork

Originally posted by swiss
*Boggle*

No, seriously. *boggle*.

This is from the same poster that defended Mary Harneys right to charge €15,000 to the taxpayer for personal grooming expenses.

What private sector organisation has an over time bill of €64 million?


In the organisation - I work for. The overtime bill is zero.

Maybe with changes in work practices and additional recruitment - such an overtime bill could be slashed?

TheFin

Lads

just spend some time checking out why the prison officers have to work overtime. Its not because we don't have enough - its because they are off sick etc. Here is just one snippet from the Examiner.

Prison chief accuses warders of 'sick' fraud


By Caroline O'Doherty
THE head of the prison service has accused prison officers of ripping off the State through bogus sick leave. The average prison officer goes off sick for over three working weeks a year, figures obtained by the Irish Examiner reveal.

The figures show prison officers took almost 53,000 sick days last year, an average of 16.6 days each.

Director of the Prison Service Sean Aylward said some officers deliberately went sick to create lucrative overtime for others.

"We cannot stand over people ripping off the system. It's something that has to be controlled if you are to have a disciplined service."

Already five prison officers have been sacked for chronic abuse of the system; 165 others were denied pay for both certified and uncertified sick leave, and 53 others were denied uncertified sick pay.

Mr Aylward plans to put the squeeze on bluffers by introducing:

* Compulsory return-to-work interviews after every sick day, even if certified;

* Moving more quickly to cut off paid sick leave;

* Dismissal of people with chronically bad attendance;

* Refusing to staff new recruits who display poor attendance during probation.

The cost of replacing sick officers would run close to £10 million this year, Mr Aylward said. This was on top of the unacceptably high annual overtime bill of £30m.

Mr Aylward said uncertified sick leave had been exceeding the annual five-day limit for some time.

The prison chief's extraordinary comments have sparked a major row with prison officers. The Prison Officers Association (POA) retaliated by demanding that new get-tough policies slapped on its members be applied to every other section of the civil service.

Comparisons made between the prison service and 16 Government departments found sanctions for absenteeism were applied almost exclusively to prison officers.

And while the prison service says this is because problem sick leave is most prominent among the prison workforce, the POA says its members are being singled out for discriminatory treatment.

The POA has demanded a hearing before an internal dispute council in the Department of Justice and warns it will resist plans for a further clampdown on sick leave.

POA general secretary John Clinton vigorously rejected the criticisms. He argued staff shortages raised the overtime bill and said the sick leave figures were overblown by inaccurate records.

"We are civil servants working under civil service guidelines, but there is no comparison in a job where you share a floor with 18 drug addicts and a job in the filing room of the Department of Agriculture.

"We're being singled out and we're not going to sit back and take the blame for a problem the prison authorities created."

Cork

Prison chief accuses warders of 'sick' fraud

If such was the case - it should be stamped out.

What is the overtime rate in prisons - Time & a half, double time?

By cutting back un-necessary overtime - massive savings could be made.

There should be extra recruitment & nrcessary chagres in work practices.

But what private sector organisation could sustain overtime bills of €64 million?

gandalf

Well what does the amount of sick days being taken suggest to you Thefin. I know it suggests to me that the morale in the service must be very low indeed. Maybe if this Government engaged with the Prison Officers in a meaningful dialogue rather than try on this "Dirty Harry" type quick fix make myself look good in the media to certain elements of the electorate (thats people like you !) then we could resolve this situation. From what I hear of working practices within the Prison Service it does need serious reform so the staff can have some quality of life.

What it doesn't need is this ego manic "Fritz" McDowell pushing these people into a corner.

Can you imagine if this muppet gets reshuffled to a Department like Health what he would do!!!!

Gandalf.

Geromino

Originally posted by gandalf
Well what does the amount of sick days being taken suggest to you Thefin. I know it suggests to me that the morale in the service must be very low indeed. Maybe if this Government engaged with the Prison Officers in a meaningful dialogue rather than try on this "Dirty Harry" type quick fix make myself look good in the media to certain elements of the electorate (thats people like you !) then we could resolve this situation. From what I hear of working practices within the Prison Service it does need serious reform so the staff can have some quality of life.

Gandolf,
It could suggest morale is low; however, one would need to look at the times when the officers took off for sick. For example, if you were taking off sick everytime you were scheduled for a Saturday or Sunday tour (or every other Friday, Monday, Sunday, or Saturday as other examples), that would suggest abuse of the policy rather than low morale. You also would need to look at the discplinary practices, including termination, on those officers abusing or attempting to abuse the policy. I am all for people taking off sick when it is required, but an average of 16 days suggest more of abuse rather than low morale.

If, as you say, the working conditions need to be improved for a better quality of life, then I would be inclined to hire additional staff (perhaps part time for weekends). Again, one needs to look at the earnings and leave schedule (based on time on duty as a group and individually) in order to make an accrate analysis. The one thing to improve working conditions is to deny pay for uncertified sick time ONLY. Also, having a comprehensive vacation/personal time off is also required (this is where I think the prison system is lacking) and would suggest low morale. A flexible and reasonable vacation/personal leave may be in order here.

therecklessone

Originally posted by TheFin
Lads

just spend some time checking out why the prison officers have to work overtime. Its not because we don't have enough - its because they are off sick etc. Here is just one snippet from the Examiner.

Prison chief accuses warders of 'sick' fraud

Any chance of a url or at least a date on this article? It mentions £ not €, and the figure for overtime+covering sick leave is £40 million, €14 million or so less than the €64 million overtime bill we've been discussing.

I wonder what the most up to date sick leave figures would show.

Cork, you mention that your place of work has zero overtime. I'll presume that where you work there is no requirement for a minimum number of staff then. In my place of work that is not the case. As a result, overtime is quite regular, and is needed because of efforts to staff the place with less and less personal meaning that absenteeism through sick leave can't be absorbed by the roster. That is the result of an effort to drive down costs. Changes of work practise haven't exactly meant value for money for us.

Cork

Originally posted by therecklessone

Cork, you mention that your place of work has zero overtime. I'll presume that where you work there is no requirement for a minimum number of staff then. In my place of work that is not the case. As a result, overtime is quite regular, and is needed because of efforts to staff the place with less and less personal meaning that absenteeism through sick leave can't be absorbed by the roster. That is the result of an effort to drive down costs. Changes of work practise haven't exactly meant value for money for us.

What private company could continue with an overtime bill of €64 million? Could you see Michael O leary managing a company with this type of overtime being paid? Cabin Crew & pilots have long hours. To get over this - work is schedualed. Are basic management principles applied to the public sector?


If extra recruitment or changes in work practices are needed - then they should be adapted.

I hope that both sides utilise the Labour Relations Commission to sort this one out.

Cork

Cork, you mention that your place of work has zero overtime. I'll presume that where you work there is no requirement for a minimum number of staff then.

No - but offices have to remain open even at lunch time.

But overtime is non existant is many private compaies and cut back in many areas of the public service.

dahamsta

Government Jet - FG, Lab. PD & FF all have no objection using Government Jet. The old one needed replacement and the new one was financed out of savings.

They're cutbacks, not savings. Just because you're not intelligent enough to see through it doesn't mean it's true. So anyway, you'd prefer to see your money spent on a jet we don't need than improving the health service? A yes or no answer will suffice.

Luas, Health Service & M50 Cost Over-Runs. I am aganist. With regards to capital projects - set price contracts are the way to go. Management Structures in the Health Service need to be over hauled & hopefully the Hanley report will be IMPLEMENTED IN FULL.

I'm against them! I'm for them! I'm against them! I'm for them!

How many evaded tax thru off shore non resident bank accounts.

So if other people do it, that makes it ok, yeah? How about if we all kill a member of your family, will that be ok too?

Are their pensions now to be withheld as punishment?

Yes. They evaded tax, which is the same as stealing. They took a risk, now they get to pay the price.

I think that if they settle up with the revenue (paying interest & peneltys) - why should the state sanction them further?

Actually, you're right. I'd prefer to see get their pensions. When they're in jail.

adam

dahamsta

There's another one I'd like to see you take a clear position on please Cork: Do you accept or deny that the prison service is understaffed. Yes or no.

adam

sovtek

Originally posted by Cork
But what private sector organisation could sustain overtime bills of €64 million?

Relevance?
How many hours does your average CEO work and how much does he/she take home (not to mention numerous perks)?