McDowell closes Spike and Curragh jails

Cork

Originally posted by dahamsta
There's another one I'd like to see you take a clear position on please Cork: Do you accept or deny that the prison service is understaffed. Yes or no.

adam

I am not an expert on the prison service - but if staff are required - the should be provided?

How many hours does your average CEO work and how much does he/she take home (not to mention numerous perks)?

We don't even know how much RTE pays it's stars?
Yet we are to do an iquisition on the private sector?


If there has to be extra staff, changes in work practices or re-structuring of the prison services - then it needs to be done.

If should have been done years ago.

Negottiations have gone on for years. Both sides have time to come to resolution.

BuffyBot

Originally posted by Cork
What private company could continue with an overtime bill of €64 million? Could you see Michael O leary managing a company with this type of overtime being paid? Cabin Crew & pilots have long hours. To get over this - work is schedualed. Are basic management principles applied to the public sector?


If extra recruitment or changes in work practices are needed - then they should be adapted.

The reason there is so much overtime is a combination of many things:

Understaffing - Prison Officer is not the most attractive of jobs. The basic pay certainly wouldn't attract many people on it's own. Recruitment is also hard, as all officers have to be vetted alongside other medical/educational tests etc

High turnover - The Prison Service has a quite hugh turnover of staff.

Pressure - Being a Prison Officer is an extremely presurised job. You are dealing with these people who themselves are in a pressurised environment and not adverse to violence. The fear of being stabbed with a syringe, beating beaten up or a riot occuring means that stress is a big factor - and stress is an illness which can require time off.

Actual beatings etc - Prison Officers no longer have batons to defend themselves from attack as they used to. Injuries have been caused as a result of this. Some serious, some minor - but the after effects of a physical attack can leave an office traumatised for a long time.

So when these people are signed off, a minimum level of staffing is required to keep the prison secure. Overtime is a result of all of this.


Cork, tell me how you would decrease overtime in this situation. You could rise the basic wage and increase staffing, but that also costs a lot....

Cork

So when these people are signed off, a minimum level of staffing is required to keep the prison secure. Overtime is a result of all of this.

Proper Scheduling would over come this. Minimum level of staffing is required in the Airline Industry. Could you imagine Michael O Leary trying to justify a €64 million overtime bill? Do you not find this figure outrageous?

Cork, tell me how you would decrease overtime in this situation. You could rise the basic wage and increase staffing, but that also costs a lot....

I don't know of the workings of a prison. What is the average wage of a prison officer? With any oganisation you need adequate staff and job schedualing.

I am not aportioning blame on the government or those in the prison service. But I think the overtime situation within the Irish Prison service needs resolution ASAP.

dahamsta

Originally posted by Cork
I am not an expert on the prison service - but if staff are required - the should be provided?

Indeed. And if they were, there wouldn't be a €64m overtime bill, yes? Try again with "yes" or "no" please -- you'll get the hang of it.

adam

Cork

Yes - If staff are required they should be provided. (Given proper work scheduling and work practices).

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
Proper Scheduling would over come this.

Bollocks it would. Proper staffing levels might though.

Minimum level of staffing is required in the Airline Industry.

Really? Because the last time Aer Lingus cabin crew worked to rule (ie. doing only what they were supposed to by law and according to their job description), several flights had to be cancelled for lack of staff. So what exactly were those flights doing before the work=to-rule came in?

Could you imagine Michael O Leary trying to justify a €64 million overtime bill? Do you not find this figure outrageous?

Firstly, MOL doesn't spend taxpayer's money, so why would we find it outrageous?
Secondly, I'd rather see a minor budget overrun (and make no mistake cork, 64 million is minor on these scales, when we're spending eight billion on the health service), than see a prison riot that kills people because there weren't enough guards on duty.

I don't know of the workings of a prison.

Then perhaps you ought to stop questioning what the professional prison guards are telling you about what they need as if you did know what you were talking about, no?

I am not aportioning blame on the government

Heaven forbid! (Unless it's not a FF government that is, of course :rolleyes:)

dahamsta

Originally posted by Cork
Yes - If staff are required they should be provided. (Given proper work scheduling and work practices).

Good man. And that would be Michael McDowell's responsibility, wouldn't that be correct?

adam

BuffyBot

I don't know of the workings of a prison. What is the average wage of a prison officer? With any oganisation you need adequate staff and job schedualing.

Yes, but even minmum staffing requires a lot of officers. To get adequate staff, they need to recruit. I've explained why thats a problem...

Cork

Originally posted by Sparks



Firstly, MOL doesn't spend taxpayer's money, so why would we find it outrageous?
Secondly, I'd rather see a minor budget overrun (and make no mistake cork, 64 million is minor on these scales, when we're spending eight billion on the health service)

Michael O Leary does not spend taxpayers money. This is no excuse for any wastage of taxpayers money.

64 million is not a minor figure.

And that would be Michael McDowell's responsibility, wouldn't that be correct?

Yes. Michael McDowell is the relevant Minister who is responsible for his budget.

minmum staffing requires a lot of officers. To get adequate staff, they need to recruit

This is one of the issues that the Labour Relations Commission will probably deal with.

This despute needs to be sorted. Both Prison unions and government actually agree that savings should be made.

therecklessone

Originally posted by Cork
Proper Scheduling would over come this. Minimum level of staffing is required in the Airline Industry. Could you imagine Michael O Leary trying to justify a €64 million overtime bill? Do you not find this figure outrageous?

Minimum levels of staff exist in many industries. As I've already said, my workplace requires a miminum number of staff, without which we just can't operate. Our rosters ensure that a minimum number of staff are rostered to attend duty, but if somebody goes sick then you are below minimums and overtime is required to cover. The airline industry you keep mentioning provides for this by having staff on standby (i.e available for call in within certain parameters), yet this costs money Cork. That does require extra staff. One difference is that these costs can be described as part of standard salary rather than overtime.

BuffyBot

This despute needs to be sorted. Both Prison unions and government actually agree that savings should be made.

Yes, but it was you who came in here all guns blazing about it - yet you can offer no solutions...

dahamsta

Originally posted by Cork
Yes. Michael McDowell is the relevant Minister who is responsible for his budget.

That's what I was thinking. So in fact it isn't "Fair Play to Michael McDowell" at all. If Michael McDowell was employing the correct number of people in the prison service in the first place, he wouldn't have a €64m overtime bill that required - according to his bizarre logic - putting more staff out of work. It seems like the Minister is going in circles. I hope it isn't an intentional ploy to work towards privatising the prison service. Surely people would see through that? :rolleyes:

adam

Cork

Originally posted by BuffyBot
Yes, but it was you who came in here all guns blazing about it - yet you can offer no solutions...

Let the Labour Relations Commission come up with solutions.

Spending 64 million at the problem is certainly no solution.

The airline industry you keep mentioning provides for this by having staff on standby (i.e available for call in within certain parameters), yet this costs money Cork. That does require extra staff. One difference is that these costs can be described as part of standard salary rather than overtime.

How long have negottiations gone on?

6 Years?

It is about time agreement is reached.

gandalf

Did someone say that Liz O'Donnells hubby was a director of Group 4 ?? Any conflict of interest here ???

Gandalf.

Sparks

Originally posted by Cork
This is no excuse for any wastage of taxpayers money.

Even if he used it to buy makeup?
:rolleyes:

Redleslie

Originally posted by gandalf
Did someone say that Liz O'Donnells hubby was a director of Group 4 ?? Any conflict of interest here ???

Gandalf.

Yes, prison officers told me that. Migt be an interesting conflict of interest seeing as how McDowell wants to privatise the prisoner escort business and that's the kind of thing Group 4 does. Escorting prisoners accounts for nearly half of the overtime bill.

Cork

Originally posted by Cork
Proove any conflict of interest?


Name one private sector organisation in this country with an overtime bill of 64m or more?

What does this work work as per prison officer?

The Labour Relations Commission needs a chance to sort this one out.

If the Labour Relations Commission fails - of course the Minister has to make certain cost savings.

capistrano

The cost of keeping a prisoner in Ireland is huge compared to other developed countries. Something like €200k/year in Mountjoy. And the cause for much of this is the antiquated work practices of the prison officers along with old poorly designed prisons.

Modern prisons in the US are run will much fewer staff and can cost as little as $10k/year for each prisioner.

So, lets close all the prisons down and contract out the service to a more efficient private operator from the USA or elsewhere.

dahamsta

Take the tellies off 'em. Bread and water!

gandalf

Cork repeating the same things over and over again really doesn't work in Europe. I know it worked for George Jr. in the US but really come on now give us some credit.

As regards the 64 Million if it was happening in a private organisation then they would address it by hiring more staff.

We are also led to believe that prisons are overcrowded so what does this genius do he closes prisons down.

With regard to the privatisation of prisons we don't appear to be alone in our doubts that it is the way to go.........

Penal Reform Trust criticises prison privatisations

13:11 Monday January 5th 2004

The Irish Penal Reform Trust has criticised Justice Minister Michael McDowell's plans to privatise two prisons. Mr McDowell has announced his intention to privatise the running of Loughran House and Shelton Abbey as part of a dispute with prison officers over their annual overtime bill. Rick Lines, the executive director of the Penal Reform Trust, today challenged the minister to provide evidence that the move will reduce costs and increase efficiency. "There is no evidence internationally that privatisation is actually an effective way to go to reduce prison costs or increase prison efficiency," Mr Lines said.

http://www.unison.ie/breakingnews/index.php3?ca=9&si=48953

As regards any conflict of interest. Well if Mr. PD member changes a situation so Ms. PD member benefits because her spouse is in a position to profit from the changes............

Gandalf.

capistrano

A prive company would not hire more staff. It would try to reduce the enormously high absentee rate and also change work practices to get better efficiency.

Also, what makes you think that the IPOA would accept extra recruitment to address the issue. This would affect them where it matters most - in their pockets. I think driving testers have oppsoed more recruitment for this very reason, eventhough the backlog is not more than 12 months.

We are being held to ransom by some sections of our public service.

We should do what Regan with the air traffic controllers and sack the lot of them if they won't cooperate with the necessary changes.

BuffyBot

A prive company would not hire more staff. It would try to reduce the enormously high absentee rate and also change work practices to get better efficiency.

Oh, do tell us how they will achieve this...

Cork

Originally posted by gandalf




As regards any conflict of interest. Well if Mr. PD member changes a situation so Ms. PD member benefits because her spouse is in a position to profit from the changes............

Gandalf.

Why not get details of what every TDs extended family works at. Where is the conflict of interest? How is Liz, involved with the Department of Justice? Yet - Liz O Donnells name is being dragged into this.

Prison Unions & Government are in broad agreement with regard to savings. They now have the facilities of the The Labour Relations Commission to work it out.

parsi

Originally posted by Cork
Why not get details of what every TDs extended family works at. Where is the conflict of interest? How is Liz, involved with the Department of Justice? Yet - Liz O Donnells name is being dragged into this.

.

Husband is hardly extended family.. I'm sure a quick read of the Ethics in Public office Act http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/ZZA22Y1995.html would give some indication about what tto do in such a situation..

capistrano

The point is that Liz O'Donnell is a backbench TD. She is not part of the governemnt so I can't see how there is any conflict of interest. I suspect all conflict of interest talk is just a pathetic attempt at rational argument by people who are totally oppossed to privatisation anyway.

And if some of the less arduous prison officer tasks are to go to the private sector then group 4 are the natural candidates and they have experience of this in other jurisdictions - especially in the UK.

BuffyBot

And if some of the less arduous prison officer tasks are to go to the private sector then group 4 are the natural candidates and they have experience of this in other jurisdictions - especially in the UK.

They haven't been quite a roaring success though.

See here for an example of how well they do things in the UK and here for how well they are doing in Australia

star gazer

It would seem unwise even for pure public perception to be closing jails on the one hand while gangland violence is perceived as being as bad as it was around the time Veronica Guerin died. It isn't condusive to good future relations with prison staff to brow beat, close prisons and threaten privatisation of services. Then again maybe picking a fight with prison staff is a good way of starting a process of building up the reasons for privatisation of escort services and eventually privatising the prisons themselves. It didn't work in America, it didn't work in Britain, but ireland must try it any way!

Typedef

Originally posted by capistrano
The point is that Liz O'Donnell is a backbench TD. She is not part of the governemnt so I can't see how there is any conflict of interest. I suspect all conflict of interest talk is just a pathetic attempt at rational argument by people who are totally oppossed to privatisation anyway.

You can't actually be serious now are you?

Liz O'Donnell is a former Minister for State and the thought that one of her party cohorts (another PD), who happens to be Justice Minister privatising a few prisons and giving big fat lucrative contracts to (most likey Group-4 security), where another high ranking PD (remember former Minister for State) is the wife of the boss of the company isn't ludicrous, it's devoid of any base intelligence.

With all the tribunals into corruption in local government, you'd have to be an idot, or Government lapdog, not to see the blatant colollary between Liz O'Donnell being married to the head of Group-4 and privitisation of the Prison service, that's called a vested interest and you won't be quick to convince many people that a former Minister for State, has not got enough influence in a tiny party like the PDs, to effect such changes.

Get a grip!

Cork

Guilt by Association?


Any contracts to privatise the service would have to go out to tender?

Could you list the difficulties you have with the tendering process?

€64 million overtime is the kernel of the situation.

Where has a government decision been made to privatise the service?

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
Guilt by Association?

Er, no. Try "possible guilt by direct close connection with a vested interest"