racism alive and well

Catsmokinpot

im going to put foreward an argument and im sure this gorilla is going to reply to my post aren't i so smart for thinking that could happen

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
And as a PS to catsmokin' pot: why is it that, despite the fact that this thread IS about racism (and not about humour - the original thread was about humour, and was in the humour section, whereas this is in the humanities section, think about it), and refers to the original joke in a disapproving manner, you only post a huge big rant back to me? Is that a chip I see on your shoulder?

oh yes im stoned off my face as usual!!!

"And as a PS to catsmokin' pot"

isnt that the type of thing your battling against? people who take one thing about a person and base the rest of their oppinions on that one thing?

Idiot again!

wha??? the post was about that joke being racist and magick pointed out that the correct term was prejudiced not racist (which was correct) then you went off your trolly talking **** about how we were all bigots and supremacists and how we bigots try to justify their beliefs. and talking all mannor of sh1t relating to race not being a clasification. it wasnt even racist or prejudiced in any way it was relating two words together with a funny punchline.

the point im making is as soon as you saw this thread you went shooting off about people in these monotone whiteboy parties. and as i said already i have heard some whitey jokes and theyre just as funny. i dont feel anger when i see them because i have the sence to look past the fact that i am white and that i do live in a white bread society full of people like you who might find these things offensive and who cant look past culture and race and see the funny side of things.

also full of people who look at that joke and laugh because it was offensive and not because it was funny.

i am 20 by the way and yes i did get layed after club la before obviously by the sounds of it you havent. also you seem to point out the obvious alot aswell as talkin sh1t.

and ofcourse your damn right i wouldnt tell jokes like that to a traveller just the same as they wouldnt tell jokes about us to our face because it would start fights but if they did i would find them funny and thats the point not everyone fits neatly in to your stereotype

it dont matter if you black, white, brown, or pakistany we all come from the same place, the punani!

MiCr0

if this thread become's the insultfest that i can see it becoming then its going to be locked pronto.

no more personal comments please!

dr_manhattan

"And as a PS to catsmokin' pot"
isnt that the type of thing your battling against?"

Yes, I'm battling against PS's: what are you on about? I'm not battling against anything, I'm posting my opinion on an internet message board - which is pretty much the opposite of battling against something, as far as I can see.

"people who take one thing about a person and base the rest of their oppinions on that one thing?"

Err, sorry, but I have no opinions about you whatsoever. (assuming you mean that I'm basing my opinion of you on 'one thing') Not only did you *assume* that my post was directed at you initially, but you've obviously not read anything I've posted since: and I'm not arsed posting again, read back if you want and see what i was actually posting about.

My post was directed against those who try and justify nasty jokes by saying "knackers are dirty", ok? Not you. Plenty of people before me said that the joke was "shameful", etc., but they didn't attract your anger, I guess because they didn't trigger that huge chip on your shoulder by using big words and siding with the evil ones who created the dictionary, LOL.

Now, you said you were going to "put foreward an argument" - and from what i can interpret you're saying that by mentioning the term 'whiteboy' I'm being the same as those that I slag off?

Well let me ask you something: when you're in the UK, and people start making irish jokes, how does that make you feel? Because saying that 'you don't mind' chris rock making jokes about crackers is really big of you - but all jokes based on race are not the same, and the idea that 'racism' works both ways is a hilarious one.

Now, by using the term bigot and supremacist I've obviously got your back up, but I'd just like to ask you, where did I ever mention you in my first post, and why is it that other peoples' negative opinions of the joke didn't make you so mad?

and by the way, I'm very happy you're 20. That's a very big number. Now why do you have to tell me this? Is this more of that inferiority complex? I'm 31 myself, hurray for me...?

dr_manhattan

to the moderator:

"insultfest"?

Come on, I dunno what version of english you use, but any debate or discussion I've ever been involved in has wound up casting aspersions on the other speaker's intelligence, sexual prowess, whatever as a matter of course: I think the worst insults I've gotten here are "idiot" and something about me being "so up my arse it's hilarious" - nevertheless, although faust was trolling, I do believe catsmokinpot has an argument to advance.

I notice that moderators here ask people to back up their poinst a lot - could the moderator please back up the term 'insultfest'? As I'm not posting here long, and if threads are gonna be locked because of the mild language used thus far, I think I'll not waste my time...

And PS the above is posted with no sense of antagonism whatsoever, ahem ;-)

MiCr0

you went off your trolly talking ****

i am 20 by the way and yes i did get layed after club la before obviously by the sounds of it you havent. also you seem to point out the obvious alot aswell as talkin sh1t.

God you're so up your own ass! It's hilarious!

just things like that - and how threads go after people start to make personal comments and not adding to the thread at hand.

dr_manhattan

Okay guess you've got a point at that.

Still though, seriously, if there's no content but insults then I won't reply in length, but I do think that the arguments catsmokinpot is trying to advance are worthy of discussion... and I do believe that the kind of people that get smoked out by the term 'supremacist' are the kind that need to discuss their views the most...

Ah, who am i trying to fool? i'm just not arsed doing any work today or yesterday ;-)

Catsmokinpot

they were only replies to antagonizing comments like

So you're just back from not getting laid in Club L.A. and decided to have a rant online, hmmm?

dr_manhattan

listen catsmokin' pot, I think your first post to me, in which you call me an idiot, etc. speaks for itself.

Sure the line about club L.A. was dumb, but given that you'd asked me to 'drive down to waterford and say that to my face' I think it was fair game to demonstrate that i probably know waterford as well as you do.

I also loved the question "what are you, a scientist?"

buuut anyways, this whole topic, since your reply, has contained about 2 posts addressing the subject of racism. the rest has been hijacked by the twentysomething prove yourself arena. I'll leave yz to it, and see if I can find a thread where my vocabulary doesn't cause such antagonism.

tata

MiCr0

and the circle is complete...
the insults begin

and more and i'm locking this

Faust

Thank god he's gone. Now someone can actually discuss things!

MrHappy

Just saw this thread.... Just to add to it...

My Mate baught a house in a council estate about a year ago, grand house and area, now they have moved some travellers into the house opposite. Now every time I call up, there's a truck parked outside his house, with (usually) one burnt out car, and some other crap in the back of it. He told me everybody in his estate is going mad. The house that they moved into was done up and looked well. The council even did the gardens, when the travellers moved in, they knocked down the outside wall. (The rubble is left on the path outside and still is), and have all sorts of crap in the front garden. He hates the F*UKers, and I dont blame him.

One day while driving up to his house about 2 -3 months ago, they obviously had the family over, there must have been about 4 vans outside apart from the truck, so I asked "sorry can I get by", and I was very nicely told to F*UK-OFF...... Not what I'd call the nicest of people.

They are the dirtiest feckers I've ever seen.... and shouldnt be given housing at all, if that's the way they are.

dr_manhattan

yeah, yeah, whatever: if your pal moved in next to a bunch of black people who did the same thing, would that be sufficient cause to say all black people are dirty?

Honestly, this attitude irish people have whereby they think that a story about some mate of theirs (and it's always a friend of a friend, people never say "my house" there's always a degree of separation) proves a point and that's that....? I met a sailor once and he robbed me. All sailors are thieves. I met a drag queen once and he got pissed. All transvestites are alcoholics.

Try this for size:

Two years ago I was living opposite a bunch of council flats in dublin central: when I first moved in I was conspicuously wealthy(er), and attracted a lot of grief - my house was burgled twice, and I could see the lookouts beforehand both times. I got attitude on the street way beyond being told to **** off, and my GF got attacked later that year too.

So I could have sat there going "all settled people are dirty thieving ****ers", could I? Or "all council flats dwellers are scum"? Sounds like I'd have a legitimate case according to you: or can we only make blanket generalisations about travellers?

Now, using a combination of intelligence and cop on, I had the stuff back from both burglaries within 8 hours (I used a combo of the gardai, bribing kids, and knocking on doors: located the stuff in 3 hours, the gardai took over and got it back). The second time I got grief I told the people giving it to me that if they wouldn't go for a pint with me they were chicken****, so we had a pint and things got sorted. And by the time my GF was attacked, I knew people on the residents comitee, and they named the guy for me, which made it easy to get the cops round.

So don't let me hear your whinging about how you can't talk to your neighbours, it's all just a big smokescreen excuse to hate people, if you hate travellers then just say it, stop trying to justify hatred with second hand stories, just say it like it is and you get more respect.

And incidentally, pretty much all of my interaction with the travelling community has been negative: I could tell you stories that would make you hair curl. But I'm not stupid enough to let that colour my opinion of an entire community, just like I'm not dumb enough to let my bad experiences with french people make me think it's legit to say all french people are ****ers.

Does anyone have an actual real legitimate argument here, or is it just "**** the travellers"? Cos if that's all that's being said, then I'll just counter with "**** settled people" and tell every story I've ever had about people with houses who are **** to back it up.

:rolleyes:

SheroN

Honestly, this attitude irish people have whereby they think that a story about some mate of theirs (and it's always a friend of a friend, people never say "my house" there's always a degree of separation) proves a point and that's that....?

it's a little bit racist to try and say that the collective "irish people" have such an opinion?.

The majority of travellers are dirty, dodgy robbing bastards(speaking from my own experiences of course, i've yet to meet "nice ones"), it's inbuilt into them to always try and get one over on the settled man.

dr_manhattan

Actually, what I meant to say was "settled irish people", I was trying to mirror the generalisation to provoke a response...

Anyways, you say:

"it's inbuilt into them to always try and get one over on the settled man."

I've heard trvellers say the same about us: and they're both as right and wrong as we are. Fact is, I'm prepared to deal with people on a one to one basis, or in terms of realistic divisions - for example, there's two specific traveller families I know of who i would describe as filthy thieving drug dealing feckers (haha, but not to their faces).

Basically, I've met black people in the US who hate irish people, cos all they know is irish american, and all they've had is grief from them, yet they've given me the time of day and taken me for who i am, not what I am. I would like to extend the same courtesy to every other culture, and if someone's a prick then fine, but I refuse to generalise in negative terms, and if I do, I do not expect to be taken seriously.

You cannot justify prejudice, it's simply not possible.

Guy:Incognito

the basic fact of the matter is, that anywhere that u see round dublin (havnt spent enuf time anywhere in the country to experience this) where travellers/intinerants/knackers etc have been "camped" is filthy and full of crap, all the locals experience revolve around bad attitudes and damage/anti social behaviour from them. For a start , i doubt if very many (if any) pay tax, so in my view that entitles them to nothing. They contribute nothing to the country, in fact they make it worse, so they shud be given exactly what they put in, nothing. I dont care what anyboday says, about any good experiences they have had, the fact of it is that they would not appreciate if these people parked their caravans on the path outside their house it would not be appreciated, and sed liberal minded person would suddenly become mr/mrs "get these people off my street and out of my area. a couple of years ago i spent bout a month "between jobs":D and at least once a week there was a knock on the door and i'd answer, only to be greeted by some traveller woman with her hands out asking for money.

I for one dont appreciate being annoyed on the street by these people, never mind in my own house.

dr_manhattan

"You cannot justify prejudice, it's simply not possible"

...is my final line on it: every post here says the same thing, "travellers are dirty and contribute nothing to society" which describes half the settled population as well: and believe me, there's another bunch of people that would say everyone who is unemployed is a lazy parasite: so whatever. You can say it again and again and again, but you cannot justify it.

But when you say "I don't care what anyone says" how do you expect anyone to be interested in discussing it with you?

Also:

"if these people parked their caravans on the path outside their house it would not be appreciated, and sed liberal minded person would suddenly become mr/mrs "get these people off my street and out of my area""

try reading me post: been there, done that, still refuse to be prejudiced. Had a lot worse **** from settled people, too, and have no intention of condemning any9one aout of hand.

Whay post an argument? Why not just say "I hate travellers"? It's more honest than this "I am justified in hating travellers" bull**** that everyone seems to think is legit.

So spare me, unless anyone has anything new to say, I'll leave this thread be (again)

MrHappy

Hi,

I was up again in my mates house last weekend, and the same sh1t! They had parked across his driveway this time, blocking his and my car in, he asked one of them could they move the car, and the response, "alright boss", and it was moved in a timely manner of 2 hours later.... Now just to backup what I've just said, YES there is every possibility that anybody could do this, but strangely enough, until now nobody did, also there's every possibility that others on the street could wreck their house, but strangely enough none have... Thats strange too... Ea!

BTW: I don’t HATE travellers, I would dislike ANYBODY (This includes ALL Social classes of people), who would do what they are doing. And before you go on about just because of a car, it's a lot more than that... These particular people Are: Dirty, unfriendly, and basically dont give a F**K.

dr_manhattan: To be quite honest you sound like a Disgruntled Social Worker........ or something. Oh, Yes I had this argument with 2 social workers..... (No their not friends of friends, of a mates uncle), 1 is my Brother and the other is his work colleague. Both were coming out with the same crap as you in the start. But in the end both said they wouldn't stand for or like it if it were on their doorstep! I was really surprised at that. NOT!

dr_manhattan: Tell me this, where you live, if you've bought your house, if someone came up and started a Dump next door, would you like it?? Seriously!!

Oh and By the way, he has been to the Police, and the county council about it.... they cant do much about it!

As I mentioned I dont HATE travellers, if it were some other family doing the same things, that fits the social norm of a family living in their house, I'd feel the same way about them, and I'd call them nackers too.

MrHappy

Oh Sorry forgot to mention this....

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
yeah, yeah, whatever: if your pal moved in next to a bunch of black people who did the same thing, would that be sufficient cause to say all black people are dirty?

Ea NO! But he would call them a dirty pack of nackers though...

dr_manhattan

MrAngry, you can say what yoyu like about the people living next door to your mate, they sound like a pack of ****ers to me: but my argument was about you using this to justify the idea that "travellers are dirty" - which will not wash with me at all.

I'm not a disgruntled social worker: I simply believe in settling my problems with my neighbours rather than saying "they're all a pack of ****ers" -

I never advised you as to how to deal with people, i simply used an example of what I did in order to point out that, rather than slag off people who made my life difficult, I made overtures, and it's amazing how a little civility can achieve. All I did was have a beer with some people who thought I thought I was better than them: afterwards, we were NOT mates, but they thought of me as a person rather than a yuppie or whatever.

And btw, I used that example to point out that the solution is to NOT go to the cops or the council, but to meet people on level ground: because life is full of difficult people, and it's up to us, not the state, to work it out.

Now if you think that me saying "no I wouldn't like that **** either" is somehow reverting from the "same crap" (as you call it) that I've been saying, then you're nuts -

I simply said, "you can't say all travellers are dirty, that's just a load of bigoted crap". You can say your mates neighbours are scum if you want, and you're entitled to say that, but re-read you post, that's not what you said. You said they are all dirty.

OBVIOUSLY I wouldn't like that **** happenning, just like your social worker mates: that doesn't mean I agree with your racist crapola, okay? These are completely separate issues, and you remind me of those people who assume that people who are against the gulf war are supporters of saddam hussein: where do you get your logic from?

Now, to break it down:

" BTW: I don’t HATE travellers, I would dislike ANYBODY (This includes ALL Social classes of people), who would do what they are doing. And before you go on about just because of a car, it's a lot more than that... These particular people Are: Dirty, unfriendly, and basically dont give a F**"

But that's not what you said originally, okay? The sentiment changes completely when you say "these particular people", don't you get it?

And btw, if a dump were zoned next to my house, OF COURSE I WOULDN"T LIKE IT, what does that mean? Fact is, if I couldn't get it moved, I'd have to LIVE WITH IT.

Get the point?

MrHappy

lol "MrAngry" I love it!

He already went down your road of talking to them.... asked if there's any way ... and before he finished his sentense, was asked ... "Do you know who I am?" he replied, "No", and asked "Do you know who I am?", and he was then told "Now F*CK off".... So that didnt get very far. After this he went to the police and council. He told me apparently they had already had 100's of complaints, before he phoned.

"but my argument was about you using this to justify the idea that "travellers are dirty" - which will not wash with me at all." Thats fine. It's your own viewpoint, but in the cold reality of day the majority are, not ALL im sure... Im sure there's some lovely travellers. But not a hell of a lot. Put it this way, I driven past heaps of travelling sites all over the country over the years, I've yet to see a nice clean one. Maybe they're hiding the clean ones...

"you can't say all travellers are dirty, that's just a load of bigoted crap". You can say your mates neighbours are scum if you want, and you're entitled to say that, but re-read you post, that's not what you said. You said they are all dirty."

Ok I take the point about the 'ALL', by 'ALL', I mean a majority of what I have seen. Sorry if that's on over generalisation!

"And btw, if a dump were zoned next to my house, OF COURSE I WOULDN"T LIKE IT, what does that mean? Fact is, if I couldn't get it moved, I'd have to LIVE WITH IT.
Get the point?" Yep!

Do you get mine? You say you wouldnt like it, well neither does he, and that's what these Dirty Nackers are basically doing. But the "Having to live with it" No, thats why he's trying to do something about it.

AAAAAaaanyway....

Enjoy the weekend!
Mr.Happy!

Lioness

the damage done by travellers can be righted in no time at all worst I've seen is a bit of land subsidence

:rolleyes: You going to clean up the remnants of the travellers are you?! cos the council sure doesn't. A site that was inhabited by travellers in my area has been in a dirty condition for nearly 2 weeks now. The land is spoiled by household waste that the travellers 'forgot about'. Just for your knowledge a bit of 'land subsidence' evolves into bacteria and a real bad smell...
Maybe this is an isolated incident but reading the experiences of you (!) and others re travellers on this thread leads me to believe otherwise.

we build the ugliest housing estates we corruptly zone land, our cities SMELL and look like ****,

Would you care to make a distinction between our cr*p government and Irish people?? Also, your above comments, Dr.Manhattan, promptly endorse the "very predjudiced" slogan that you are throwing at people here. There are more examples of this aswell.

people have prejudices against itinerants because people are too lazy to keep an open mind

Now I find that comment both funny and ridiculous. I think people are wary and harbour certain perceptions towards itenerants because of the experiences they have had with them in the past and they are influenced by stories that have done the rounds.

"You cannot justify prejudice, it's simply not possible"

Prejudice? Hmm. The feeling I get from people on this thread is that they are fed up with travellers- unhygenic standards, attitude, indifference to land and private property etc.

SheroN

Ok every "member of the travelling community" i've ever met has been smelly ignorant and dodgy, it's not me being racist, it's just a fact.

And yes I know plenty of settled people are smelly ignorant and dodgy too.

amp

Originally posted by Lioness

Would you care to make a distinction between our cr*p government and Irish people??.

We, the Irish people are entirely responsible for the people that govern us. We vote them in, therefore it's not that easy to make such a distinction.

Now that's a generalisation that I can make because it's a fact. We could close this thread based on the fact that people are openly racist in this thread. The fact that this racism is based on "stories" and personal observations doesn't justify it in the slightest. In Nazi Germany I'm sure there were discussions about how the Jews were causing all of Germanys economic problems because they were nicking all the money or something.

So this thread has turned into essentially a bitching thread about Travellers and a chance to vent stories people have heard about them. That's not an intellectual debate.

I'm not going to close this thread just yet but I am going to enforce a racism ban on this thread. Anyone who makes claims about Travellers that they can't back up with proof will be temporarily banned. Anyone replying to this warning will be permanently banned.

I'd like to hear from people (especially those who think Travellers are an inferior subspecies) some solutions to the problem. What should be done about travellers?

dr_manhattan

Hmm: ya see, there's the question: what can be done?

It's always funny to me that we are all so proud to be irish, when in fact we're not irish at all - we speak english, we are largely anglo saxon and our culture, traditions and government. Travellers have an older culture than us, and have far more claim to be irish than any of us bar those who speak gaelic as a first language.

We have to realise in our dealing with the travelling community that we are, to a degree, the descendents of an invading culture, and our rules and ways of life are an imposition on travellers every bit as much as theirs is to ours (actually much more so - we tell them where to stop, they don't tell us where to live)

So even those who spend all day cursing the brits as invaders and usurpers will then spit on the travellers. Even those who claim injury for 800 years of catholic oppression will then deny travellers equal treatment. The problem is we have to learn to live with people that we may or may not like: because it's either that or try and extinguish them.

And one of the reasons, IMHO, why travellers are known for their bad attitude is they get no respect, so why should they respect us? Do you think every traveller is stupid, and cannot see how much you are looking down at them, how much you think they smell? Is there some reason that they should show us respect when we show them none?

To the person who said that our disgusting mess of a polluted, violated countryside is "our governments fault, not ours" - surely then the travellers can say that domestic waste is their bins fault, and not theirs? We elect our governments, ever notice that?

And the people saying "they shouldn't be given houses at all" - you do realise that settling travellers is OUR idea? That housing (and thus eradicating) the travllers is the closest we can come to a solution? Just get them injuns out of their teepees and we'll sell 'em redeye, 4 generations later there will be no injuns.

As far as solutions to this mess is concerned, we have to start thinking about other people for starters, and kill this me feiner attitude that causes us to think that just because our precious suburban legoland is being damaged that travellers do what we say.

EVERY person making snap judgements about travellers shoud be ashamed. ANY community affected by problems with travellers should see it as a black mark against them that they cannot conduct a dialogue with a minority community. Africans, Polacks, Yugoslavians, Brazilians, you name it: we do not have to love everything they love, or be their best mates, but if we cannot build a mutual respect with these communities we should hang our heads in shame.

There is NO quick solution to a problem that is well over 800 years old, just like the north, except at least the north realises it has to sort things out in some way. It never ceases to amaze me that people would rather hate their neighbour than get up off their asses and find out why they hate them: we need to talk to travellers and earn their respect, because no problem is ever solved by waiting for the other half to make a move - we must act in good faith and be prepared for a long journey.

Honestly, hypocrites in this country will talk about the obscenity of palestine, the insanity of paksitan v india, the intractavle nature of the north, and then slag off travllers like they have a right to.

Do you think every person who ever got insulted by a black man has the right to say black people smell? because that is what you're doing, just in a more acceptable way.

Next I'm gonna post WHY we should be so ashamed.

dr_manhattan

Here's a charming story from Hot Press sent to me over christmas about ireland, the land of a thousand smiling lying hypocrites:

Now you take this story, and you make the travellers indian, or maori, or aboriginal, and you make a heart rending story aout of it, and every bourgeois fecker in ireland will run to see it at the movies, and their hearts will bleed for the ethnic minorities they have never (and will never) meet.

It stinks that "City of God" was such a hit in this country. Do you think brazilians love barrio kids? Do you think barrio kids treat brazilian suburbanites with respect? But no, on a big screen it's so "visually stunning"... hurl.

---

(article begins)

---

No room in the estate

05 Dec 2003 14:25

It’s the classic Christmas parable, the story of the family who are
left out in the cold. Except this is Ireland in 2003.



You remember what happened in Bethlehem, just over two thousand years
ago. The story goes that a man from Nazareth and his pregnant wife
arrived in the town on the day of the Roman census. The poor bastards
had come a long way, and they were tired from the journey. She looked
especially wasted – hardly surprising given that she was expecting, any
time now.

You’d have thought, considering the big belly she had on her, that the
couple might have been given a bit of a friendly welcome, and offered a
bed for the night. Not a chance. Whatever the religious or social or
ethical disposition of that benighted place might have been, they were
given short shrift when they called to various inns and b’n’bs in the
area.

“No room,” they were told. But the sub-text may have been a bit more
insidious. There wasn’t a sign up that we know of, but if there was, it
might have read: No Irish or Nazareens. There were some horribly
prejudiced ****ers around those parts, in them days, or so we’re told.
But we’ve come a long way, since then. Especially us Irish. That kind
of thing could never happen around here. Of course it couldn’t.

The young couple stayed that night in a stable on a hill overlooking
Bethlehem. In those unsanitary, and doubtless cold and miserable
conditions, the woman, Mary, gave birth to a baby. Or so legend has it.

They called him Jesus and later he became known as the Christ. It was
a big moment in human history. The same fella founded a religion, the
followers of which are still around, and are known as Christians.
That’s what the majority of people in Ireland profess to be.

Aren’t we the lucky people?

An unfortunate traveller family had a bit of a disaster last week.
Based in a couple of caravans in the vicinity of Lahinch, they lit a
fire in a stove to counteract the winter chill that’s become more
pronounced in recent days. The chimney caught fire, and both of the
caravans were quickly engulfed in flames.

There are eleven members of the Mongan family, who lost everything in
the blaze. “It was a lucky escape,” the father Martin Mongan was quoted
as saying. His youngest daughter’s face was blackened by the smoke and
she was almost unconscious when he leapt to safety, with her under his
arm, through the window of the caravan. But they survived.

In the immediate aftermath they must have been comforted by the fact
that Clare County Council offered them a house in an estate in Miltown
Malbay as a temporary home. It’d be a place to kip and to stay warm in,
while they got their bearings. But any sense of relief was short-lived.

Once the locals got wind of what was happening, the barricades went up.
A group of about 40 residents mounted a protest outside the house that
had been offered to the travellers. Martin Mongan described arriving at
the Ballard Estate and seeing a mob in the streets. One local held a
banner that put their position on the council’s offer starkly:
“Residents In – Travellers Out”.

Rather than risk a confrontation, Martin Mongan passed on through.
Subsequently, representatives from the County Council entered into
discussions with the locals. To no avail.

While the Mongan family tried to organise themselves in a tent by the
side of the road, the residents spoke to the media. “The council
officials said that they wanted to hand over the keys of the house to
the Travellers, but we weren’t having that,” said Pat Twomy. “If the
Traveller family is allowed to move in, the price of our houses in the
estate will go down.”

At the prospect of that disaster, Pat Twomey’s conclusion was
definitive. “There are no circumstances in which we will allow the
Traveller family to move in here,” he said.

Martin Mongan had in any event decided that he wouldn’t accept the
Council’s offer. “We were afraid to,” he said, “over the intimidation
that might happen.”

A local Fianna Fail councillor, Michael Hillery, welcomed the fact that
the Traveller family had “declined the house”, as he put it. Speaking
about a family of 11, who were then living in a tent on the side of the
road, he said: “I sympathise with the family who are in a very, very
dire state, but providing them with a house in the Ballard estate is
not the right answer.”

What then, we might ask, would the ‘right answer’ have been? As a
representative of local opinion, Mr Hillery was appropriately abundant
in the expression of his generosity. “The people of Ballard would have
no objection to the Mongans being housed in a more suitable location,”
he said.

So as I was saying in the beginning, isn’t it a good thing that we’ve
come as far as we have? When you think back to what that poor little
child Jesus and his mammy and daddy had to put up with, being kept out
in the cold on the night Himself was born – sure it wouldn’t happen
nowadays.

Not in a Christian country. And especially not in Ireland. Of course it
wouldn’t.

Happy Christmas.

sceptre

*sceptre adds Michael Hillery, Fianna Fail councillor for some place in Clare, to his idiot list. I hope he enjoyed his Christmas turkey, presumably peppered with that well-known spice NIMBY.

(not that I'm that pushed about Christmas myself but most people regard it as a time of goodwill, even a time when they might put aside their own prejudices and allow a family into temporary housing when theirs is burned)

jerenaugrim

The bigotry shown by some people on this thread is apalling. Fair play to dr_manhattan for trying to counteract it.

SheroN

I ask to all the PC people what level of dealings have they had with the travelling community?

Believe me, by in large they're not nice people!

dr_manhattan

And so, off it goes again: Sheron, have you read that moderator post earlier about simply posting "the travellers are xyz, my friend this that and the other...."?

You would appear to be a moderator: what gives?

Now, as far as this "PC people" rubbish is concerned, just leave it out: political correctness is nothing to do with this thread, my insistence that people should refrain from making scattershot judgements, or at least that people who do so cannot expect to be taken seriously, is nothing to do with Political correctness:

Nowhere have I insisted that anyone use any specific terms or speak in any specific way: and that is political correctness. No amount of calling everyone who insists that bigotry is wrong a "PC person" will change this.

And finally, the overwhelming trait of those who hate on a basis of ethnicity: their conviction that anyone who disagrees with them is making up their opinions. Everyone who slags off the travellers always comes back with "have you ever had dealings with them?"

And as I have said before, yes I have, and plenty of them. And the majority of them have been bad news for me: so what? You are under the mistaken impression that if you've had bad experiences with a bunch of people, then that legitimises nasty remarks. It does not. Even if travellers murdered your family, you'd still be wrong to say "most travellers are scum". The only way you can have the right to say that is when you've met EVERY traveller that ever existed. And even then, I'd think you were being gratutitous.

Goddamnit I caught two travellers in my sitting room about four months ago (at least the gardai insisted they were travellers, personally speaking I wasn't so sure as I've never seen a traveller run from a scrap ;-)) - how come I'm not on the side of the bigots? How come I don't say 'these people are dirty"?

I would also say that people bring issues into their encounters with "other people" that they pretend aren't there. I've seen enough meetings between prejudiced cultures to know that: people excusing their skewed or aggressive attitudes with "he started it" - Everyone seems to think travellers are stupid, and that they don't notice that we mistrust and look down on them anyway.

This thread reminds me of the 80s, when bigots would come back from two years in london and say that blacks or asians "smell" - and when you challenged that, they'd say "listen, you haven't had to work with them, I have, and they smell" - or, "they want our women", or "if you don't like them they say it's cos they're black" or some other lame rubbish.

And I'll say one thing, too - for all my negative experiences with travellers, I've had an equal number of much, much worse encounters with people who have houses. To be honest, the worst people I've ever met are from Stillorgan, blackrock and foxrock: but do I expect to be taken seriously if I say "all SCD people are amoral, greedy filth"?

No, I do not: I expect to be told I am being stupid and bigoted, and that there's enough problems in the world without making new ones with people I haven't even met.

I'd imagine this thread will be closed soon, there's nothing of consequence being said here.

I'll say one thing though, before it drops: I look at the cancerous blight of suburban housing outside dublin (and most irish provincial towns) - houses built to strict budget, with shoebox walls and crappy plastic georgian effect doorways, that cost 20 grand extra if you want 3 feet of space between it and the next house. I look at the corrupt zoning legislation, and our counsellors fecking about with EU subsidies so we can fill our country up with housing that is substandard, ill planned, designed by builders and produced entirely for short term profit.

And I think that a few messy roadside stops, some temporary damage to (usually urbanised) landscapes and the like is small, small peanuts. We should look at ourselves before we start calling travellers ugly.

MrHappy

dr_manhattan: Being "PC" has EVERYTHING to do with this thread!

My Brother is going to try get his hands on some statistics around the travelling community. If/when I get them, Ill post!

SheroN

Those facts would be interesting to say the least.

dr_manhattan

No, as far as you people are concerned, because you refuse to THINK about the issues at hand, "being PC" is at the heart of this issue.

You just don't get it, do you?

Because you think that spouting statistics is going to legitimise what you are saying. Just like white americans think that spouting statistics about black on black crime and prison population justfies their blinkered, legoland, RACIST opinions. Just like people point to maori and native american "dirtiness" and "rowdiness" and think that's the end of the story.

Yeah, it's all about us PC people trying to prevent good honest people like you and your brother telling the truth. Naturally.

One purpose this thread has served has been that I've been able to show it to a LOT of people to explain what I mean when I talk about how irish people don't even know when they're being racist.

So thanks for that.

SheroN

they're not really a race of people though are they?

MrHappy

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
Yeah, it's all about us PC people trying to prevent good honest people like you and your brother telling the truth.

Yea that's right! And also about the government hiding the fact that there are alians! :rolleyes:

Stats will give some 'FACTS' around the issue! Oh sorry thats just the establishments sordid view, trying to get one over on them... forgot about that! :rolleyes:

dr_manhattan

Define the term "race" please - it's meaningless.

Now you're the one being PC - I'll use the term "ethnicity" if you want. However, a bunch of people bound together by language, culture and physical characteristics will do for me.

Koreans aren't generally recognised as a race either, but when chinese people treat them like ****, it's still racism.

Anyways, looks like you've got a lot to contribute, Sheron: any more one liners for us?

Bigots always got nothing to say

dr_manhattan

"Stats will give some 'FACTS' around the issue! Oh sorry thats just the establishments sordid view, trying to get one over on them... forgot about that"

do you realise that it's possible to illustrate using "facts" that african americans are violent, antisocial and have lower I.Q's than other races? That these same "facts" show that poor people are violent, have low attention spans and steal?

You don't get it, do you? Your facts are meaningless. Your prejudices are unjustifiable, and you are a bigot.

SheroN

Less of the personal name calling please.

If you read back through what i've said I don't think all travellers are bad. But in my experiences (which is fairly vast), a large majority of them are trouble. The start fights in pubs, the litter the country side, they pay no tax. Basically there is one law for them and one law for the settled man. Now I know alot of settled people do many of these things too, but the numbers of people carrying out these practices (in my opinion) are far higher among the travelling community than that of the settled community.



All I'm saying (which you can't seem to be able to say in today's PC society) is i'd like to see some figures relating too:

A)Crime rates in an area while travllers are about or soon after they've left.
B)The numbers of travellers with no car tax/insurance. (if you or I were caught with no tax or insurance we'd have the book thrown at us. no so these people it seems)
C)There's been halting sites and houses provied for travelers many have been wrecked by the very people they've been given to, i'd like to see figures for this.
D)I'd investigate how they can afford such nice caravans and vans with no obvious income.

plus various other things.

MrHappy

"do you realise that it's possible to illustrate using "facts" that african americans are violent, antisocial and have lower I.Q's than other races? That these same "facts" show that poor people are violent, have low attention spans and steal?"

TO be quite honest, No I dont/didnt realise that!!! Why? Because I havent studied the area! Too busy with other stuff, PC's and such (Sorry for that PC one ). Maybe you've spent countless hours doing so..... I dont know.

Ok so by your own rationale, we cant really say anything about anybody, unless we have met all of them, all over the world. Also lets not use stats at all, lets face it, they can be swayed in diretion X or Y! Jeasus Man, cop on. They will show some light on the subject. Im not using them to justify anything, just to show Proof.

muffen

But in my experiences (which is fairly vast), a large majority of them are trouble. The start fights in pubs, the litter the country side, they pay no tax. Basically there is one law for them and one law for the settled man.

I'm Swedish, but I've lived in Ireland for about 2 years now.

I've lived in four countries before Ireland, and in no other country have I seen pubfights on a regular basis, involving 5 - 10 people. A few times I've seen fights in the parkinglot or outside the pub, where the Gardai came... and LEFT!!

Also, never have I before been in a country where people think it's completly fine to piss wherever they feel like as long as it's after midnight and they have alcohol in their blood.

Now, overall I don't think Ireland is bad, I actually like it, which is why I've been here for so long (although I don't think I'm staying for more than 6 - 8 months).

My point is, if you only look at barfighting, littering and general destruction, Irish people don't look too good either. Before coming to Ireland, I had NEVER seen a burnt car. In Ireland I've seen atleast 20. Yet, my overall impression is pretty good. Irish people are nice, friendly and helpful. Point being, you can make any type of people look bad if you only look at certain things, and then generalize it over the whole popluation based on stats that are twisted to suit your needs.

Rasism is the worst thing I know... for example, I would never travel to Austria if I could help it, because their government is largely composed of extrem rightwing people, over 1/3 of their population voted for them, and if I went there I'd be paying VAT, which supports a government I do not want to support.

Now, I don't think that even half the things said in this thread are true, and stats are bogus more often than not, as 95% of all stats are made up on the spot anyways

Hating a large group of people who just happens to speak the same language and have similar appearances is never right unless you know every single individual in the group.

Please note that I was NOT trying to offend Irish people or talk sh*t, I can say similar things about people in every country I've lived in, including Sweden, which is exactly point I'm trying to make! Anyone can be made to look bad, if that's what you're trying to do. Trust me, I wouldn't be here if I didn't like it

As I said, overall, I think Ireland is pretty nice to live in, and in my opinion it's the best country I've lived in, apart from Sweden ofcourse (nothing can ever replace the place you are from)

MrHappy

Hi,

I see your point about the stats (and the burnt cars) etc... I've been to sweden Too, Very Nice place. (Sorry didnt mean to Generalise I was only to 2 different spots, and didnt see every part of the whole country)

WOW, You have seen a lot of fighting, if you've seen that many fights on a regular basis, maybe your going to the wrong pubs or something. I've been going out in Dublin for years, I have seen a fair few fights, but not a lot, but that's been over 15+ years, not 2! Suppose it boils down to your own perception and experiences. (Just like what people have said in this tread all the way though... their own experiences). The pissing thing, yep your absolutely right....! Tis Gross! The Irish must have weak baldders! ( Joke!)

As for the stats, what other way can anybody 'try' to give any facts about the topic? If and when I get them, Ill post all, not just negative points. Stats are supposed to show trends, they dont have to be 100% correct.

As for the 'Stories' being true or not, I'd reckon most are true. Cant see why someone would make them up for no reason! Could be false though.... I suppose.

dr_manhattan: Thanks for the Bigot comment! Someone must have really done one over on you at some stage.... That chip on your sholder must be getting VERY heavy.

dr_manhattan

Hey, everyone seems so offended at being called a bigot! that's hilarious, seeing as you all seem to think it's fine to cast aspersions on the travelling community as much as you want, and that's no problem... not nice, is it, to be bunched off like that.

And the "chip" I have on my shoulder comes from growing up in this country, where everyone is friendly to foreigners but if you're irish, they have a problem with your percieved class, creed, origins, politics, whatever. There's only 4 million people in this country, yet there's more reasons to spit on your brother man than in most continents, it's hilarious.

...but that being so, I wouldn't call dodging work to post a bunch of crap on the internet a "chip": I'm simply unwilling to allow people to make smug remarks about other peoples' hygiene, public conduct and general appearance without asking them to first look at themselves.

Muffen, thank you very much for the objectivity: it's an unfortunate thing that we often refuse to look at ourselves and cannot see the travellers as anything other than objects of hassle.

Now, SheroN:

"The start fights in pubs, the litter the country side, they pay no tax. Basically there is one law for them and one law for the settled man. Now I know alot of settled people do many of these things too, but the numbers of people carrying out these practices (in my opinion) are far higher among the travelling community than that of the settled community."

That's charming. You sound like Ariel SheroN, talking about the uncivilised palestinians. Or An asutralian bigot explaining why he doesn't want "abbos" near his kids. Or someone in the US who's just had some black people move into his area.

And by the way, your "vast" (LMAO) experience is similar to mine (though at the age of 31, I would hesitate to call my experience of ANYTHING "vast", haha) - I have had bad experiences with travellers too - for the 329th time: So what? That gives me no right to make proclamations.

(and also: in your "experience" they pay no tax? How do you know? Are you an accountant for a traveller family or something? And while I'm at it, how do you know they start fights? have they started them with you?)

You just don't get it: when a community is marginalised and treated like they are a problem, as the travellers are, as many, many cultures are, they no longer give a **** about anything. The low standards of public behaviour that Muffen points out among ALL irish people are a hangover from a time when we were ALL marginalised and made to feel like we were nothing more than a pack of drunken louts, incapable of running our own country (ahem...)

You realise that you, and all your other mates here, all sound like a 'punch' editorial about the drunken irish from 1888 or something? Your unwillingness to make allowances for and understand a marginalised people who, IMHO, have every right to treat us with contempt*, is victorian, draconian, a joke, in short.

So, as amp asked above, what is your solution to what you see as such a huge problem? (and amp also asked that people stop generalising without backup, but hey, you don't read my posts so why read his?)

Any ideas? Concentration camps? Special police? Sterilisation? I suppose it's all "PC" of me to suggest these things, hmm?



*IMHO, the contempt we get from travellers comes from:

1) the contempt we treat them with
2) the way we think we have the right to impose our mode of living on them
3) the difference between what we think is acceptable and what they think is acceptable
4) stupidity and arrogance on BOTH sides of the equation.

SheroN

To be honest dr_manhattan I really find your holier than thou' attitude pretty irritating.

I don't remember saying anything about concentration camps etc? Putting words in people's mouthes is no way to conduct a discussion.

And the "chip" I have on my shoulder comes from growing up in this country, where everyone is friendly to foreigners but if you're irish, they have a problem with your percieved class, creed, origins, politics, whatever. There's only 4 million people in this country, yet there's more reasons to spit on your brother man than in most continents, it's hilarious.

It's not nice to generalise you know.

amp

This thread is closed. It makes me a little angry that in Ireland of all places there are people, intelligent people, who find it perfectly acceptable to be bigotted.

Now I'm not taking sides on this. The charter states that racist talk is not allowed and I wrote that charter long before this thread was started. I regard Travellers to be a race and unfortunately for some of you it's my opinion that counts.

Bigot:
One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

That's what a bigot is Mr Happy. You and others in this thread are bigots by definition.

You and Sheron are banned from Humanities for a week. Don't bother getting into a huff about it. Don't pm me. Please go straight to an Admin if you feel hard done by, because I have far better things to do than to argue with bigots.