racism alive and well

Faust

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
"Don't be mean to me i'm just a little college girl!"

Okay then, my apologies.

Anyone else got anything to say?

;-)

I forgive you tee hee hee

dr_manhattan

in reply to TUTS above -

this was the intention of my original post:

fact is, PC or non PC, racist or not, a lot of people will accuse jokers of being racist and yet be quite racist in their opinions themselves. Likewise, many who insist stuff is 'just a joke' can be concealing agendas.

whether or not a joke works well or not is besides the point:

Q: what do you say to a woman with no arms and no legs?

A: Nice tits

Obviously quite a blue joke. But you can't tell from that joke whether or not I am a sexist: you can choose to read it in, and you can choose not to, but it's not a final proof of any description. And what I was saying is that only too often people hide behind BOTH "it's just a laugh" and "it's offensive" but refuse to think.

If something was just a joke, then it should be explainable as such. And if something is genuinely offensive, ditto. But my problem is with those people who keep posting about how such jokes are "true" because travellers do x, y, or z.

Fact is, jokes are not supposed to be justifiable, just funny. So why not leave it there?

(and PPS as a comeback to the mention of chris rock and so-called 'reverse racism', that's a whole other thread...)

Faust

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
in reply to TUTS above -

this was the intention of my original post:

fact is, PC or non PC, racist or not, a lot of people will accuse jokers of being racist and yet be quite racist in their opinions themselves. Likewise, many who insist stuff is 'just a joke' can be concealing agendas.

whether or not a joke works well or not is besides the point:

Q: what do you say to a woman with no arms and no legs?

A: Nice tits

Obviously quite a blue joke. But you can't tell from that joke whether or not I am a sexist: you can choose to read it in, and you can choose not to, but it's not a final proof of any description. And what I was saying is that only too often people hide behind BOTH "it's just a laugh" and "it's offensive" but refuse to think.

If something was just a joke, then it should be explainable as such. And if something is genuinely offensive, ditto. But my problem is with those people who keep posting about how such jokes are "true" because travellers do x, y, or z.

Fact is, jokes are not supposed to be justifiable, just funny. So why not leave it there?

(and PPS as a comeback to the mention of chris rock and so-called 'reverse racism', that's a whole other thread...)

Do you know what was a funny joke, that time i pretended to be a woman and you were all nice to me.. rofl!

dr_manhattan

yes, faust, you're very clever.

anything to actually say?

Faust

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
yes, faust, you're very clever.

anything to actually say?

Yes actually, i have a question. Do ittinerants dump filth on the side of the road when they stay there?

TUTS

More than likely, but it is changing. On the trip to work i see a few. They ones which are kept well... tidy ...no rubbish lying around are usually left to their own devices....while the ones with bags of rubbish bits of cars the odd goat here and there are moved on fairly lively.

dr_manhattan

"Do ittinerants dump filth on the side of the road when they stay there?"

Okay, maybe if you read what I post, it'd be easier.

But once again:

Yes, some itinerants do this. I never said that they did not.

What I did day was, so do settled people. Our cities are disgusting, our standards of pollution and waste management are shameful, our rivers smell, and I don't think we are in any position to comment on how travellers leave "the side of the road" when we have utterly wrecked the place, and the sides of our roads aren't much to boast about in the first place.

let's try remembering that there were travellers here before there were sides of the road, and try looking at our own tidiness before we try and justify nasty jokes on the basis that the people who they are directed at are "dirty"

But doubtless you'll have an hilarious comeback for this, faust, you seem to be on a roll this morning.

Faust

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
"Do ittinerants dump filth on the side of the road when they stay there?"

Okay, maybe if you read what I post, it'd be easier.

But once again:

Yes, some itinerants do this. I never said that they did not.

.

See that quote there that's what i was looking for not any of the other irrelevant drivel you posted. Anyway, This is why people have many miconceptions of ittinerants because alot of them leave filth on the side of the road. AND alot of them stay in public places in which they have not right to stay in and because they stay there large boulders have to be placed on the sides of roads to stop them from camping there. This is why people have prejudices against ittinerants! AND you will find that alot of itinerant rip people off. So that is why people have misconceptions of itinerants. (See how i tackle the issue instead of bitching about how housing estates look ugly)

dr_manhattan

"This is why people have prejudices against ittinerants"

No, people have prejudices against itinerants because people are too lazy to keep an open mind. No matter what way you write it, prejudice cannot be justified, and that's what you're trying to do.

Some australian aborigines are alcoholics and have no jobs, Same can be said about native americans, innuit, native mexican indians, south african township residents, and up until recently, irish people. This does not justify the many prejudiced people who feel that just because these facts exist, they have a right to judge.

People have misconceptions PURELY because they do not check their facts. They are wrong because they are wrong, and no amount of bad behaviour explains this. If what you are saying is true, then everyone who's ever treated irish people like morons is justified in their misconceptions, too.

And btw, here's why "bitching about housing estates" is relevant:

Travellers are a society in their own right. Therefore our own version of "tidy" should mean exactly nothing to them. Why should they obey our rules of propriety? Just because when you were born travellers were treated like an annoying pest on the face of settled society, doesan't make it so.

As I say, they were here first: our society is just an extension of the original colonisation of the country, so why is it that we have to be so respected? They could just as easily say that we polute and destroy everywhere we come in touch with, too, only it'll take more than boulders to save our countryside from our towns and cities.

Face it, calling travellers 'dirty' is just as valid as calling settled people 'dirty'

oscarBravo

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
Some australian aborigines are alcoholics and have no jobs, Same can be said about native americans, innuit, native mexican indians, south african township residents, and up until recently, irish people.

It's no longer true that some Irish people are alcoholics and have no jobs?

Faust

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
"This is why people have prejudices against ittinerants"

No, people have prejudices against itinerants because people are too lazy to keep an open mind. No matter what way you write it, prejudice cannot be justified, and that's what you're trying to do.

Some australian aborigines are alcoholics and have no jobs, Same can be said about native americans, innuit, native mexican indians, south african township residents, and up until recently, irish people. This does not justify the many prejudiced people who feel that just because these facts exist, they have a right to judge.

People have misconceptions PURELY because they do not check their facts. They are wrong because they are wrong, and no amount of bad behaviour explains this. If what you are saying is true, then everyone who's ever treated irish people like morons is justified in their misconceptions, too.

And btw, here's why "bitching about housing estates" is relevant:

Travellers are a society in their own right. Therefore our own version of "tidy" should mean exactly nothing to them. Why should they obey our rules of propriety? Just because when you were born travellers were treated like an annoying pest on the face of settled society, doesan't make it so.

As I say, they were here first: our society is just an extension of the original colonisation of the country, so why is it that we have to be so respected? They could just as easily say that we polute and destroy everywhere we come in touch with, too, only it'll take more than boulders to save our countryside from our towns and cities.

Face it, calling travellers 'dirty' is just as valid as calling settled people 'dirty'

I did'nt try to justify prejudices, i just said that's why people have prejudices.. And all the other stuff you are saying is totally irrelevent!

dr_manhattan

nope, not since the eradication of alcoholism and unemploymenmt in the free state ;-)

My bad, what I meant was that up until recently people have said that about irish people: and although they still do, it's not with the frequency they used to, if ya get me.

apologies ;-)

dr_manhattan

"I did'nt try to justify prejudices, i just said that's why people have prejudices.."

Faust, I give up, your ignorance of what's actually being discussed here is astounding.

If you say that some black people smell, and that's why people are prejudiced against them, then you are justifying their prejudice by giving a reason for it.

If you say some women are stupid, that's why people are prejudiced against them, same deal. Same deal for any prejudice - if you give a reason for a prejudice, then you are saying the prejudice is founded and has a reason, and therefore is a legitimate prejudice.

Or else you're just saying "a lot of travellers leave **** everywhere" for the hell of it, in which case, why waste anyone's time?

You may not *think* of it this way, but you appear to have the reasoning power of your average bunch of grapes, and no idea that, to travellers, we can appear just as messy and dirty as they sometimes do to us. And that's why the parts of my post which you chooses to ignore are in fact quite relevant.

Anyways, back to the point:

People have prejudices because people are too stupid to take people on a person by person basis, and have to constantly mouth off about "all them lads in XYZ are all ****"

that's why they're called *prejudices*

When there's a reason behind them, they are called *opinions* and, like assholes, everyone's got one.

Hence:

"the travellers on my road are a pack of filthy bastards" -

= OPINION

"most travellers dirty up the side of the road"

= PREJUDICE

mkay?

Faust

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
nope, not since the eradication of alcoholism and unemploymenmt in the free state ;-)

My bad, what I meant was that up until recently people have said that about irish people: and although they still do, it's not with the frequency they used to, if ya get me.

apologies ;-)

When did anyone steretype the irish as unemployed!?
And i think we are seen as drnks because of our high alcohol consumption rate,

http://www.healthpromotion.ie/uploaded_docs/Irish_Drinking_Culture.PDF

take a look at this interesting paper.

Faust

If you say that some black people smell, and that's why people are prejudiced against them, then you are justifying their prejudice by giving a reason for it.If you say some women are stupid, that's why people are prejudiced against them, same deal. Same deal for any prejudice - if you give a reason for a prejudice, then you are saying the prejudice is founded and has a reason, and therefore is a legitimate prejudice.

These have to be the funniest examples ever! Why would you be prejudice against someone because they smell? Anyway let me give you another example. Some people are racist against immigrants because they see immigrants working in shops and since they are unemployed resent them and say "immigents are stealin' all da jobs!" And btw theres a problem with being p.c as you seem to be being.
The thing is there are itinerants who are complete assholes and thieves and you seem to be negating the fact that they exist for the fact that you like to argue and attempt to belittle me with your snide comments and idiotic excuses.

dr_manhattan

"take a look at this interesting paper."

errr... no.

Faust, you're a really boring person, you know that?

Anyways, as I said:

The aboriginal, amerindian, mexican and south african indigenous population have huge alcohol consumption rates, just like the irish. THAT WAS MY POINT.

EVERY stereotype has a basis in reality:

Italians are all gangsters.
Germans are all nazis.
Black people are all uneducated.
Pakistanis all run corner shops.
Arabs all mutilate women.
Jews are greedy.

Just because there is a historical/demographic basis for all the above, doesn't mean they are any the less offensive. Does this entire discussion have to be explained to you piece by piece?

Yes, the irish are a nation of drinkers. But call an irishman "another drunken irish", especially if you're from the UK, and see what the reaction is like.

dr_manhattan

faust, it'd be nice if you posted all your points in one go, but anyways:

"The thing is there are itinerants who are complete assholes and thieves"

There are members of EVERY group of people who are complete assholes and thieves.

Pointing out a thousand million travellers who are assholes will not make a joke about them less offensive, okay? I'm not sure you know what you're talking about here to be honest.

"why would you be prejudice against someone because they smell?"

Well, it's the excuse I've heard MANY times as to why people don't like travellers, black people, asian people, etc. etc. I have no idea why people use it as a reason, but here's a funny joke for you to demostrate that yes, people do say this about minorities:

Q: what do you call a paki who doesn't smell?
A: Asif

Anyways, faust, it's becoming apparent that you don't actually have a clue what you're talking about, you were "pretending" to be a girl a while back for reasons known best to yourself, so as far as me attempting to "belittle" you, I think you're doing that all by your lonesome...

later

Faust

God you're so up your own ass! It's hilarious!

dr_manhattan

great answer!

bizmark

Don't be mean to me i'm just a little college girl!"

er totaly off topic here.....but todays ago you said you where a man.....:rolleyes:

Catsmokinpot

im going to put foreward an argument and im sure this gorilla is going to reply to my post aren't i so smart for thinking that could happen

Originally posted by dr_manhattan
And as a PS to catsmokin' pot: why is it that, despite the fact that this thread IS about racism (and not about humour - the original thread was about humour, and was in the humour section, whereas this is in the humanities section, think about it), and refers to the original joke in a disapproving manner, you only post a huge big rant back to me? Is that a chip I see on your shoulder?

oh yes im stoned off my face as usual!!!

"And as a PS to catsmokin' pot"

isnt that the type of thing your battling against? people who take one thing about a person and base the rest of their oppinions on that one thing?

Idiot again!

wha??? the post was about that joke being racist and magick pointed out that the correct term was prejudiced not racist (which was correct) then you went off your trolly talking **** about how we were all bigots and supremacists and how we bigots try to justify their beliefs. and talking all mannor of sh1t relating to race not being a clasification. it wasnt even racist or prejudiced in any way it was relating two words together with a funny punchline.

the point im making is as soon as you saw this thread you went shooting off about people in these monotone whiteboy parties. and as i said already i have heard some whitey jokes and theyre just as funny. i dont feel anger when i see them because i have the sence to look past the fact that i am white and that i do live in a white bread society full of people like you who might find these things offensive and who cant look past culture and race and see the funny side of things.

also full of people who look at that joke and laugh because it was offensive and not because it was funny.

i am 20 by the way and yes i did get layed after club la before obviously by the sounds of it you havent. also you seem to point out the obvious alot aswell as talkin sh1t.

and ofcourse your damn right i wouldnt tell jokes like that to a traveller just the same as they wouldnt tell jokes about us to our face because it would start fights but if they did i would find them funny and thats the point not everyone fits neatly in to your stereotype

it dont matter if you black, white, brown, or pakistany we all come from the same place, the punani!

MiCr0

if this thread become's the insultfest that i can see it becoming then its going to be locked pronto.

no more personal comments please!

dr_manhattan

"And as a PS to catsmokin' pot"
isnt that the type of thing your battling against?"

Yes, I'm battling against PS's: what are you on about? I'm not battling against anything, I'm posting my opinion on an internet message board - which is pretty much the opposite of battling against something, as far as I can see.

"people who take one thing about a person and base the rest of their oppinions on that one thing?"

Err, sorry, but I have no opinions about you whatsoever. (assuming you mean that I'm basing my opinion of you on 'one thing') Not only did you *assume* that my post was directed at you initially, but you've obviously not read anything I've posted since: and I'm not arsed posting again, read back if you want and see what i was actually posting about.

My post was directed against those who try and justify nasty jokes by saying "knackers are dirty", ok? Not you. Plenty of people before me said that the joke was "shameful", etc., but they didn't attract your anger, I guess because they didn't trigger that huge chip on your shoulder by using big words and siding with the evil ones who created the dictionary, LOL.

Now, you said you were going to "put foreward an argument" - and from what i can interpret you're saying that by mentioning the term 'whiteboy' I'm being the same as those that I slag off?

Well let me ask you something: when you're in the UK, and people start making irish jokes, how does that make you feel? Because saying that 'you don't mind' chris rock making jokes about crackers is really big of you - but all jokes based on race are not the same, and the idea that 'racism' works both ways is a hilarious one.

Now, by using the term bigot and supremacist I've obviously got your back up, but I'd just like to ask you, where did I ever mention you in my first post, and why is it that other peoples' negative opinions of the joke didn't make you so mad?

and by the way, I'm very happy you're 20. That's a very big number. Now why do you have to tell me this? Is this more of that inferiority complex? I'm 31 myself, hurray for me...?

dr_manhattan

to the moderator:

"insultfest"?

Come on, I dunno what version of english you use, but any debate or discussion I've ever been involved in has wound up casting aspersions on the other speaker's intelligence, sexual prowess, whatever as a matter of course: I think the worst insults I've gotten here are "idiot" and something about me being "so up my arse it's hilarious" - nevertheless, although faust was trolling, I do believe catsmokinpot has an argument to advance.

I notice that moderators here ask people to back up their poinst a lot - could the moderator please back up the term 'insultfest'? As I'm not posting here long, and if threads are gonna be locked because of the mild language used thus far, I think I'll not waste my time...

And PS the above is posted with no sense of antagonism whatsoever, ahem ;-)

MiCr0

you went off your trolly talking ****

i am 20 by the way and yes i did get layed after club la before obviously by the sounds of it you havent. also you seem to point out the obvious alot aswell as talkin sh1t.

God you're so up your own ass! It's hilarious!

just things like that - and how threads go after people start to make personal comments and not adding to the thread at hand.

dr_manhattan

Okay guess you've got a point at that.

Still though, seriously, if there's no content but insults then I won't reply in length, but I do think that the arguments catsmokinpot is trying to advance are worthy of discussion... and I do believe that the kind of people that get smoked out by the term 'supremacist' are the kind that need to discuss their views the most...

Ah, who am i trying to fool? i'm just not arsed doing any work today or yesterday ;-)

Catsmokinpot

they were only replies to antagonizing comments like

So you're just back from not getting laid in Club L.A. and decided to have a rant online, hmmm?

dr_manhattan

listen catsmokin' pot, I think your first post to me, in which you call me an idiot, etc. speaks for itself.

Sure the line about club L.A. was dumb, but given that you'd asked me to 'drive down to waterford and say that to my face' I think it was fair game to demonstrate that i probably know waterford as well as you do.

I also loved the question "what are you, a scientist?"

buuut anyways, this whole topic, since your reply, has contained about 2 posts addressing the subject of racism. the rest has been hijacked by the twentysomething prove yourself arena. I'll leave yz to it, and see if I can find a thread where my vocabulary doesn't cause such antagonism.

tata

MiCr0

and the circle is complete...
the insults begin

and more and i'm locking this

Faust

Thank god he's gone. Now someone can actually discuss things!