The Mega **Management Company** thread

Victor

fiddlewus wrote:

Does anyone know how it is management agents usually form their own fee to be included in the overall service charge - is it as a percentage of expenditure or some other way?

Some will work on a fixed fee, or fixed fee for certain tasks and hourly charge for others. It will vary.

markpb

Lucifer wrote:

i'm living in a 2 bedroom apartment in Mount Saint Annes in Milltown, our management fee is 2200 yoyos

Wowsers! That's almost twice what I'm paying. Is the place well looked after or what makes it so expensive?

Lucifer

they have a break down of all the insurance etc etc...it is a huge complex of may apartment block and town houses, the grounds are really well kept and all the lights etc are always working and if you ring them they fix things within a day but it is still a bit steep, the apatment prices are sky high in the last few years though. the next 3 blocks that were built range from 650,000 to 1,250,000

antoinolachtnai

How much is going into the sinking fund, do you know?

The more units that are in it, the lower the charge per unit should be.

The price of units shouldn't really be related to the price of the unit.

Who is the management agent?

markpb

Lucifer wrote:

they have a break down of all the insurance etc etc...it is a huge complex of may apartment block and town houses, the grounds are really well kept and all the lights etc are always working and if you ring them they fix things within a day but it is still a bit steep, the apatment prices are sky high in the last few years though. the next 3 blocks that were built range from 650,000 to 1,250,000

It still seems very steep, although relative to the value of the apartments, I guess it's not My estate has 321 apartments (1, 2 and 3 bed) and our maintenance is about €1,200 which I suspect is about average. It should be definitely be slightly higher though.

unfedfish

the majority of managing agents don't seem to know their head from their arses judging by the posts i've read here....we had the misfortune of engaging one of the more frequently mentioned company's services (...begins with K....;) ) but promtly gave them the axe...they were shocking at getting things done and horrible to deal with...the guys we have now are brilliant,they tendered every contract and as a result our service fee went down around 35% without compromising the quality of the work done by the various contractors. i,luckily haven't experienced any major maintenance problems with my apartment but from what i've heard they have a very quick turnaround once called and get things done (my neighbour had an ongoing insurance claim sorted by them after 2 phonecalls,something she'd been trying to do for 3 years with previous agents, hallelulia!!). i also see our agent out and about on site once or twice a week checking up on stuff.

it's painfully clear from reading thru the posts that there desperately needs to be a regulatory authority overseeing management agents (eg: like the banks etc have IFSRA)...has there ever been any progress made in this area?

markpb

Not sure who you're dealing with but my estate is with Wyse (has been since the first day) and I couldn't say enough good things about them. Our rep Russell is fantastic, very easy to get hold of, actually returns calls (!), works huge hours (he was on-site till almost 10pm last night and I regularly get mails from him at 7pm or 8pm) and is generally great. Since he took over our account we've reduced our refuse disposal bills by over 70k and our insurance by 20k. Wyse FTW

On your other point, I think there's a lot of confusion (understandably) between management companies and management agents and people who have no need to know the difference just bitch about the management co. Sometimes the agents are useless, sometimes the companies are useless, sometimes the companies directors are the developers so owners have no say and bitch about the agent. The whole thing does need to be sorted out.

unfedfish

yes i feel sorry for the management companies ie. the board of directors made up of residents who try their best on behalf of everyone only to get blackballed my incompetent and uninterested agents/companies...best advice is,where possible,just give them the boot....hats off to those (like shane?) who pull the sleeves up and take on the responsibilites of running an apartment complex.

i've heard mixed things about wyse on here and elsewhere... you seem to have landed on your feet by getting russel as managing agent. our guys are core property managment and like russel are very corteuous,hard-working and efficient...if only that could be the rule rather than the exception for managing agents...

antoinolachtnai

blackballed? Tell us about this.

unfedfish

perhaps blackballed wasn't the most correct turn of phrase...i basically meant that it's unfair that board directors and resisdents have to go through hell and high water just to get even the most basic service from their managing agents,services that most apartment owners pay through the nose for in service charges etc....

sorry for being vague!

redspider

fiddlewus wrote:

Does anyone know how it is management agents usually form their own fee to be included in the overall service charge - is it as a percentage of expenditure or some other way?

Was thinking of doing a study of service charges for college of apartment complexes in the city centre to assess how and if their are justified. Considering analysing management companies end of year financial statements to:

1. Maybe do a financial statement analysis of several comparable complexes to assess the management companies performance (which involves various operating ratios) as an entity supposedly accountable to its shareholders ie. company members.

2. May have a look at where the biggest expenses go out and try and price these jobs myself, the same way as an agent may offer a tender to a management company, and compare it to actual charges.

3. May just find charges of comparables and assess why some pay more than others and consider if this is justified or just bad management by the company.

Anyone have an suggestions or advice of a better way or how I should go about it - you all seem like a learned lot.

Cheers!

I dont think anyone has answered your questions yet.

A few years ago, we contacted several Managing Agents to quote for their services for our complex. Pricing for their service seemed to be just a fixed amount in all cases, which I guess they based on the number of hours they would have to put in over a year and other costs/expenses (phone calls, going to bank, etc) plus profit! We had very poor experiences with the then agent, and after gathering a handful of quotes we decided that the best course of action was that the Committee (ie: ourselves) would manage it and arrange for the necessary services. This we estimated would take us less time than chasing up an agent, and now several years later it has proven to be the case. We now have a better service, we have negotiated better terms for the services that we buy in, and we have reduced hassle as we dont have to keep chasing the agent, who we've now termed a (mis)-managing agent. So, a major result. I think any complex that has a 3-5 people who can put in a small amount of time will be able to run most complexes better AND cheaper than getting in an agent.

I think your study would be good to do. Financial Accounts held at the CRO however may not supply all the pertinent information you need. They generally wont provide a costs break-down, and this is where you find the information you are seeking, such as the agents fee and other charges. For most places this information is provided at the AGM, or at least should be. One alternative perhaps would be to make contact with the Directors of several Management Companies directly and see if they will provide you with the info.

> 2. May have a look at where the biggest expenses go out and try and price these jobs myself

The biggest component costs tend to be insurance costs, waste costs, and then grounds/maintenance, I would think. The 'managing fee' is the lucrative part for the agent in most cases and is usually less than those 3. That's why agents like big complexes so that their fee looks small in comparison to the other cost components. Another 'trick' they use is to include their fee in with the grounds/maintenance component. In that way, their actual fee can be hidden.

Another idea is that all complexes should have an SLA (service level agreement) with their agent and service provider. This is the only way to get some sort of minimal level of service. The agent may not deliver on it but then at least you have some comeback.

> 3. May just find charges of comparables and assess

We found that the agents tend to be 'lazy' in seeking the lowest prices for the required services that are needed, such as Insurance, Waste, Grounds/Maintenance, etc. They put little legwork and effort into it and we found that we were paying 10,000's etc per annum more than what was necessary. It is likely to be endemic, we suspect.

I think it would be good if Management Companies could 'self-organise' and share lots of this pertinent information. Does anyone want to volunteer to establish a website (with passwords) so that Directors/Committee Members can share and discuss? Buying power, if gathered together (think volume buying) could reduce component costs and hence fees per annum. Think of 10 or 20 complexes coming together to negotiate a reduced insurance bill. That could easily save 10% or even more. Currently we are divided, and conquered, by the agents!

Just some thoughts ....

Redspider

po0k

<Keanu> Woah!

markpb

redspider wrote:

I think any complex that has a couple 3-5 people who can put in a small amount of time will be able to run most complexes BETTER and cheaper than getting in an agent.

The hard part, like everything else, is finding committed people to do the job. There are five people on my management company and only two or three of us do any work at all. We're lucky to be backed by an extremely good agent.

The biggest component costs tend to be insurance costs, waste costs, and then grounds/maintenance, I would think. The 'managing fee' is the lucrative part for the agent in most cases. That's why they like big complexes so that their fee looks small in comparison to the other cost components.

This is very true. The top four for my estate (321 apartments) are security, refuse collection, management agent's fees, insurance and electricity. Everything else pales in comparison with those.

I think it would be good if Management Companies could 'self-organise' and share lots of this pertinent information. Does anyone want to volunteer to establish a website (with passwords) so that Directors/Committee Members can share and discuss.

I think this is a really good idea. I joined the management company six months ago and it really was a blind decision - none of us had any idea what was expected of us, what we do, etc and really had no-one apart from the management company to talk to.

Perhaps we could get a hosted forum here or a new forum on neighbours.ie?

Victor

Good post redspider.

markpb, if anyone else is interested, you can either continue to post here, get a subforum under Accommodation & Property (private or public) or get one under the hosted category.

What would it be called and what would its scope be?

markpb wrote:

Since he took over our account we've reduced our refuse disposal bills by over 70k and our insurance by 20k. Wyse FTW

How did you reduce your refuse disposal bills by over 70,000 euro? Thats a reduction of 200 euro+ per apartment.

markpb

Victor wrote:

How did you reduce your refuse disposal bills by over 70,000 euro? Thats a reduction of 200 euro+ per apartment.

Basically we switched refuse company. We had a problem for a few years where the bills were extremely high but the estate didn't have enough money in the bank (at any one time) to cough up the down-payment if we wanted to switch providers. When we finally found some cash, we switched and saved a fortune.

I think the new company agreed to pick up paper recycling bins free of charge and that reduced our normal refuse a little. I could be wrong about that, I don't know the full details.

We're looking at switching providers again, the next one should save us another €10k per year. We also reduced our insurance bill from 40k to 20k last year and we're getting an electrical survey done to see what we can do about reducing our electricity bill. Like I said in another thread, we're extremely lucky in that our management agent does a lot of work on things like this.

markpb, if anyone else is interested, you can either continue to post here, get a subforum under Accommodation & Property (private or public) or get one under the hosted category. What would it be called and what would its scope be?

Good question. I guess something like Management Companies aka Poor sods who get grief for asking for money to cut the lawn

redspider

> get a subforum under Accommodation & Property (private or public) or get one under the hosted category. What would it be called and what would its scope be?

Getting a name is not easy due to the mis/over-use of the term "management company".

Multi-Unit Property Management Companies Association - MUP-MCA perhaps.
Anything correctly descriptive is gonna be a bit of a mouthful.

Hosted is probably the most appropriate.

I think the only way it would work properly would be if it was restricted to bona fide Directors of said management companies, which could be verified, and those people that they would nominate, such as committee members (not everyone is going to be a director). So the mods of the forum would have to check these aspects out before allowing access.

markpb, sounds like you have a good agent, one of the few from what I've been hearing and reading anecdotally.

Redspider

Borzoi

redspider wrote:

So, a major result. I think any complex that has a 3-5 people who can put in a small amount of time will be able to run most complexes better AND cheaper than getting in an agent.

I think it would be good if Management Companies could 'self-organise' and share lots of this pertinent information. Does anyone want to volunteer to establish a website (with passwords) so that Directors/Committee Members can share and discuss? Buying power, if gathered together (think volume buying) could reduce component costs and hence fees per annum.

To give a bit more perspective, I'm one of 2 directors on our managing company. Over the 5 years of the estate, we've had gradually reducing numbers at each AGM. This years one attracted about 15 people, many of whom I would recognise from previous years - we have about 600 units, mostly house, but 120ish apartments. Oddly enough myself and the other director were returned to the board, with no interest expressed by anyone else.

Similarly our largest bills are: Groundskeeping (33%), insurance (10%), agents fees (30%), refuse (10%) Total is about 300K

There is definietely scope for a League of Management Companies (or for the moment) a forum dedicated to them. I suggest a private one!

uberwolf

Borzoi wrote:

There is definietely scope for a League of Management Companies (or for the moment) a forum dedicated to them. I suggest a private one!

this may be the best boards idea yet.

markpb

uberwolf wrote:

this may be the best boards idea yet.

After boards itself obviously!

*salutes picture of DeV and sings the boards anthem*

sheepshagger

Does anyone know what the standard is for communication from a Mgmt Co?

Moved into a nbrand new apartment block just before St patricks weekend (had to pay the annual charge of E 1270) before the solicitor could get the keys. . . have heard from the Maint Guy (employed by Durkans the developers a few times) but apart from that Nothing.

For example - what does the insurance in my Mgmt fee cover. . .I think I know what it covers and what it doesnt but shouldnt they be sending some sort of info out about this kind of stuff? . theres 50 of us that have paid at least E 1270 each. . .they have our cash and we never hear from them

The_Conductor

I don't think there is a standard for communication- but at very least they should hold an AGM, at which the accounts from the previous year should be discussed, and decisions made on a programme of activities for the coming year. Elections to the Management Committee and/or directors could possibly also occur.

I am guessing that this may have happened before you moved in this year. If you contact the secretary of the Management Company- he/she should be able to give you a set of accounts for last year that should hopefully answer some questions for you.

If they do not hold an annual AGM they are breaking the law and directors could be disqualified (among other sanctions).

Shane

sheepshagger wrote:

Does anyone know what the standard is for communication from a Mgmt Co?

Moved into a nbrand new apartment block just before St patricks weekend (had to pay the annual charge of E 1270) before the solicitor could get the keys. . . have heard from the Maint Guy (employed by Durkans the developers a few times) but apart from that Nothing.

For example - what does the insurance in my Mgmt fee cover. . .I think I know what it covers and what it doesnt but shouldnt they be sending some sort of info out about this kind of stuff? . theres 50 of us that have paid at least E 1270 each. . .they have our cash and we never hear from them

McSpud

I have come to this debate a bit late so apologies if discussed already.

I don't understand the criticism of Management Companies. I live in 6 year old complex & while I understand some older complexes may be run by the developers ours is run by the owners/residents. The fact that only maybe 30-40 of the 200+ owners turn up for the AGM is their own fault.

Our Management fee is about 1500 but it hasn't risen in 3 years but we still have very health sinking fund. Biggest expense is waste & insurance both of which have come down in recent years. Apartments are only as good as their common areas.

I've been on the board for a couple of years & its always funny the issues people bring up at the AGM thinking its the Mgt Companies job. Years ago someone complained about the fact there wasn't 24/7 security until it was pointed out how much that would cost. In my experience too many people complain without offering solutions or realising they signed up to this when buying an apartment.

gazzer

I live in a 3 bedroom house out in D15 and our management company is a complete and utter joke.. For the last 3 months I have rang them about 10 times.. each time I get a voice message and I have never gotten a reply back from them.

sheepshagger

smccarrick wrote:

I don't think there is a standard for communication- but at very least they should hold an AGM, at which the accounts from the previous year should be discussed, and decisions made on a programme of activities for the coming year. Elections to the Management Committee and/or directors could possibly also occur.

I am guessing that this may have happened before you moved in this year. If you contact the secretary of the Management Company- he/she should be able to give you a set of accounts for last year that should hopefully answer some questions for you.

If they do not hold an annual AGM they are breaking the law and directors could be disqualified (among other sanctions).

Shane

Thanks - I was one of the first to move in (its a brand new development). . . have spoken to a c ouple of my new neigbours and they are asking the same question (when will we hear from them). . . we all seem to be in the dark

Borzoi

sheepshagger wrote:

Does anyone know what the standard is for communication from a Mgmt Co?

Moved into a nbrand new apartment block just before St patricks weekend (had to pay the annual charge of E 1270) before the solicitor could get the keys. . .:

My experince would be that the builders solicitor would pass on your details and cheque to the Man Co Agent, who would then post you details of house rules etc. as well as giving their details. And usual they'll also check to ensure that your details are correct.

TBH there's not much need for communication between the Agent and a resident unless there's a problem, with the exception of AGM notices, window cleaning notices etc.

I suppose it's possible that if the complex is brand new that the Man Co isn't fully set up, and that there is no Agent as yet, that the builders is doing the work temporarily

FWIW the buildings insurance covers the structure of the apartment, but not the contents - you should get this for yourself

chelebela2003

I am currently paying 1700 euros for a single bed GROUND FLOOR apartment in D-15 and the management company is Wallis Property Management..am I paying too much....I would also like to know if there is any tax relief on management fees..

Thanks in advance,

Mailman

I pay less than 500 in a self-managed apartment block in D15. Refuse is paid by wheelie bin for each apartment. other costs are insurance and grounds maintenance. I'd expect rare prize orchids in the communal gardens for that sort of fee.
Are you paying 1700 because other apartments aren't paying?
Consult your accounts which you should have recieved and break down the costs. If you own a one-bedroomed apartment then I wouldn't expect you'd be charged as much as a two bed or a three bed duplex. It should be mentioned in your leasehold agreement.

No tax relief available to you as an owner occupier.

Caribs

On the subject of management companies we are a small housing development with no apartments/common land etc but due to planning laws are stuck with a private development for now.

Due to the prehistoric state of the infrastructure we also have a waste treatment plant. The estate is only 3/4 years old but we just got a letter from the council stating that the treatment plant isnt in compliance with the discharge licence. As this would have been a condition of the original planning permission granted to the developer does the onus for the correction of this fall to the developer or the house owners. They are looking for €1k per house but they can swing for it as far as I'm concerned.

Anyone gone through something like this before..??

McSpud

Mailman wrote:

I'd expect rare prize orchids in the communal gardens for that sort of fee. Are you paying 1700 because other apartments aren't paying?.

I would be surprised if that would ever happen. If Management Fees are unpaid they will eventually be recovered via a debt recovery agent & all costs paid by the defaulter. If you don't pay the annual fee you can't sell the property.

Management Companies probably should be covered by law as the powers they have are fairly strong.

If your Management Company pays the waste bill they can give you a receipt for your portion which you can reclaim against tax.

McSpud

sheepshagger wrote:

Moved into a nbrand new apartment block just before St patricks weekend (had to pay the annual charge of E 1270) before the solicitor could get the keys. . . have heard from the Maint Guy (employed by Durkans the developers a few times) but apart from that Nothing.

That sounds like standard practice. AFAIK the builders need to run the company initially (someone has to insure the buildings etc...) before handing over to Agent. They should then step down as Directors of the Mgt company & by law they supposed to appear at the AGM for that but don't hold your breath.

sheepshagger wrote:

For example - what does the insurance in my Mgmt fee cover. . .I think I know what it covers and what it doesnt but shouldnt they be sending some sort of info out about this kind of stuff? . theres 50 of us that have paid at least E 1270 each. . .they have our cash and we never hear from them

Insurance covers the bricks & mortar. It does not cover contents.

When the Agents take over the running of the Mgt company & owners get to elect a Board the accounts will have to be present so you should see where the money went then.