The Mega **Management Company** thread

Paulw

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

There you go. By implication, every non management-company run estate is poorly run in your opinion. Which is nonsense. Or am I mistaken, and you admit that local authorities can look after properties fairly well? Because its one or the other here.

You're sounding like a broken record now. I have made no implications, I have only asked you to back up your claims with some facts. I've never once mentioned any other developments, or how well or poorly any are run.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

You and the other MC proponents signed up for it, and now its starting to look like it wasn't the best idea, so you're defending your decision as best you can, which is understandable, of course.

I have stated that I'm not a proponent of a management company, but nor am I against them. I live in the real world. They're here and I'm dealing with the situation, to make where I live as good as it can be.

All I've done in my posts is stated facts. I have spoken about my development and what happens here.

You, on the other hand, have made claims all over the place, but yet you can't give any facts or details. Instead you try to twist what other people say, and you ask them to back up statements that they haven't even made.

Tell you what ... take a few mins, and go back and read my posts and your posts. Then please, post some details to back up your statements.

SimpleSam06

Hagar wrote: »

In the real world things don't always happen the way you think or expect.

It might astound you but I live in the real world as well. Or did you think everyone posting on boards besides yourself was a pimply teenager, oh voice of experience?

Hagar wrote: »

Take county Meath for instance, unless things have changed in the last couple of years these "situations" still exist.

Whats so difficult about mentioning it to your local representatives? Is it too hard to pick up the phone and talk to the people in the council offices? What makes Meath so different that they can't afford basic services? Get involved, man, don't just howl into the night!

Hagar wrote: »

I can't comment on the services levels you claim to get from your local council, I doubt however that everyone is a happy with their public services as you are.

So you have no idea, but you feel qualified to comment anyway. Great, good man.

Paulw wrote: »

I have made no implications,

Yes, you did.

Paulw wrote: »

I've never once mentioned any other developments, or how well or poorly any are run.

Yes you did, and no amount of revisionism is going to back that up.

Paulw wrote: »

I live in the real world.

Have you got any arguments you didn't borrow (incorrectly) from Hagar?

Paulw wrote: »

You, on the other hand, have made claims all over the place, but yet you can't give any facts or details.

Feel free to back up your own statements. You have singularily failed to rebut or respond to successfully one single statement I have made about management companies, and now you've fallen back on "o no u dint! o yes u did!" schoolyard bollocks to support you. When you learn a new tune I'll be delighted to engage in further discussion.

Until such time, you've lost, baby.

Hagar

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

It might astound you but I live in the real world as well. Or did you think everyone posting on boards besides yourself was a pimply teenager, oh voice of experience?

:D:D

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

So you have no idea, but you feel qualified to comment anyway. Great, good man.

It's a truism that you can't please all the people all the time. I don't know the specific level of discontent with public services but some level of discontent will always exist.

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Whats so difficult about mentioning it to your local representatives? Is it too hard to pick up the phone and talk to the people in the council offices? What makes Meath so different that they can't afford basic services? Get involved, man, don't just howl into the night!

Oh I did get involved. I got on to my local council when I lived in Meath but it was done deal. The various local residents' organization lobbied for change but no change was forthcoming despite the fact that we had the very influential Mr. John Bruton living in the area. If you read back a few posts and check my profile to the left you will see I applied my own "real world" solution , I got out. I now live in the sun on the Med and pay less for my services and get more for them. Life is a bitch. Life needn't be a bitch.

Democracy in action, I voted, with my feet.

SimpleSam06

Hagar wrote: »

Oh I did get involved. I got on to my local council when I lived in Meath but it was done deal. The various local residents' organization lobbied for change but no change was forthcoming despite the fact that we had the very influential Mr. John Bruton living in the area.

Well there are ways and ways, as they say. Maybe a shakeup in local politics is needed around the area.

Hagar wrote: »

I now live in the sun on the Med and pay less for my services and get more for them. Life is a bitch. Life needn't be a bitch.

Too true. I'm off to Manila shortly, where I will once again be exposed to the semi-mythical yellow eye in the sky that is reputed to put green back in the plants, something I hazily remember.

Paulw

Hagar, I think we can both see that SimpleSam is like his nickname, and that life is oh so simple where he lives.

No point in having a discussion with someone who can't produce any facts or details.

tHE vAGGABOND

PaulW - Im quite sure he is just trolling, as he is plain ignoring what folks are saying.

Calina

But it's also fair that the key issue of what he is saying - that MC operated property is likely to have a lower value than non MC operated property is also totally being ignored by the MC proponents in this debate. They do not appear to want to accept that this may be possible and yet, the reality is that it may become increasingly likely as arguments over satellite dishes, washing lines and how much of your home you actually own crop up.

This is not addressed at all by MC proponents who are concentrating solely on how good MCs operate, and rejecting all criticism purely on the grounds that no-one can name a well operated council apartment block. It's not that simple. In truth, many new housing estates have MCs and the same issues with respect to what you can and cannot do to your property. IIRC, some estate in Swords ran into this. You might own the four walls of your house, but not the air around it, so you couldn't put a sat dish up.

Given a choice between that, and an older estate where a certain modicum of individualisation is permitted, the odds are many people will go for the older house which may not necessarily be in worse repair and may often be better built. In many cases, this is the case. It is not true that non-MC houses are generally in worse condition but this has been implied several times in the thread. The choice isn't directly between council housing (viz references to Ballymun) and MC housing. There is a middle way which is far, far more common than either extreme.

In that case, how MCs operate is totally irrelevant, and doesn't justify the view of some people who may be buyers that a MC will reduce their interest in a particular property. That's what it boils down to.

For me, until the whole situation around MCs and management agencies is sorted out from a regulatory point of view, I have no wish to get involved with one; hence, any property which is part of a MC has zero value to me, and evidently, to SimpleSam also and we are potential purchasers, and it is largely purchasers who put a concrete value on a property. It seems to me that people who have already bought into them can't understand, and more specifically, accept this.

Whatever your opinion about SimpleSam's delivery, he has a valid point. Some people don't like management companies and will place a lower value on properties accordingly. The question is what proportion of available purchasers will do that and in the absence of a "got to buy at all costs" mentality, people are now paying more attention to ramifications like this, energy ratings, proximity to public transport. Unfortunately, I think an increasing number of people are starting to look at things in this way.

One other point: regarding money making and MCs. If I recall correctly, it is not that the developer would make money from the MCs, but may have links to the assigned management agencies who do in fact make money from the MCs. There are often rumblings about links between developers and management agencies which can't be shifted owing to golden shares in the MC held by the developer because they hold one final property in the relevant scheme. I have heard a lot of people complaining that they couldn't get rid of the MA precisely because of this.

In other words, the entire situation between estates taken in charge by local authorities and MC estates and blocks is far, far more nuanced than anyone would get an impression of here.

SimpleSam06

Paulw wrote: »

Hagar, I think we can both see that SimpleSam is like his nickname, and that life is oh so simple where he lives.

Ah I love the smell of personal abuse in the morning. Smells like... victory.

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

PaulW - Im quite sure he is just trolling, as he is plain ignoring what folks are saying.

And yet another valuable contribution from the MC cheerleaders, and this one a rare but not particularly clever reverse troll-flamebait, '07 vintage I reckon. A fragrant nose, mild body, and a nutty aftertaste reminiscent of leather. All in all, three out of ten.

Believe me gents, this is mild compared to the early days of the bubble bursting, when every real estate agent and shill came in and loaded the board with schoolyard bully boy tactics, shoulder to shoulder with desperate specuvestors trying to justify signing away 40 years of their lives. This is no different, and will end in a similar fashion.

Calina wrote:

But it's also fair that the key issue of what he is saying - that MC operated property is likely to have a lower value than non MC operated property is also totally being ignored by the MC proponents in this debate.

Well in fairness, everyone thought the world was flat once too. Didn't make much odds to reality, but there you have it.

faceman

I agree that some of the posts in this thread are irrelevent and hearsay. Heres my 2 cents and how it ties back to the OP's original problem.

Firstly, Paulw is in the best scenario, as the developers have handed the running of management company (which is a limited company the the same legal obligations for the most part of any limited company) over to the owners of the properties.

With regard to the original point about dishes etc. Paulw is correct, the management company is entited to enforce the terms of the property owner's leases, house rules etc. however the management company is restricted in how they act upon enforcing the rules. (They cannot for example remove satelite dishes themselves)

Most "house rules" also have silly rules about the colour of curtains etc etc. While correct that owners are obliged to comply with those rules, enforcement in an irish court has not yet being tested. With regard to dishes, similar cases in the EU have been ruled in favour of the owner/tenants.

With regard to management companies being above aboard etc etc. The issue is this. The AGM presents a set of audited accounts to its members every year. Not all members are finance professional and dont know how to read a balance sheet. Ive seen attendance at AGM's dwindle in developments as not many people understand what they are reading or now how to challenge it when there is a problem and seem to accept the status quo.

Let me give an example. One property that I owned was about to be handed over to the members. Before I go further i want to point out that I had faith in the management company that were appointed by the developlers and simililarly the auditors appointed were above board.

One of the issues raised by members was the annual fee, it had changed after year 1 for most people. (went down for some and up for others which caused some upset. The accounts that were presented reflecting looked great but had one problem which non financial people wouldnt have questioned and that was in relation to the level of accruals. There were accruals in some cases for 2 years for items that really should have been resolved much earlier. (items some as miscellaneous ESB charges etc) Now there were reasons for the delay but it seemed nobody got the finger out to resolve it.

The other issue was the sinking fund. (For a start most members thought it had something to do with sewage!!!) It was too high. The development had no lifts or anything of high maintence that would require such a high provision.

It was challenged by myself and an accountant. however there was bog all we could do about it as the non finance heads were still able to give their vote at the end of the meeting.

Since the management company has been handed over, needless to say the sinking fund has been lowered dramatically.

I bring back to one of my earlier points, the management company were not doing anything illegal or benefiting from what had happened. but either way it still leaves a sour taste in many people's mouth.

Management companies need to be better regulated with more transparency on what they do so that people have a better understanding of how things work.

tHE vAGGABOND

Ok then, I have never lived in an area with a managment company. I really dont care either way to be honest..

Could either side give us examples of places who's value has been effected [plus or minus] by having [or not having] a managment company?

I have been house hunting for well over a year [being ultra cautious in this environment] and to be honest when looking at apartments I look at the service charge amount and the condition of the grounds and general environent [indoors and out doors]. I would pay a bit more to live in a nice place, thats kept in good nick. I think most folks would be the same?

faceman

if moving to an area with a management company, its worth checking out if there are any current issues with the MC.

Calina

But are you then making the assumption that only MC governed properties are "are kept in good nick? Because that's not actually true. The overwhelming majority of properties are in good nick and most of them, apartments aside (which are disproportionately less in good nick in my experience) not governed by MCs.

For me it's simple: I won't buy a property that has an MC at the moment, therefore its value is effectively zero.

It is you, as purchaser, who places the financial value on the property based on the price you are willing to pay. You might pay more for it, I will certainly want to pay less. You'll obviously get the property if you're competing for me, but if you want to sell it down the line, suppose I'm the only person around?

Calina

faceman wrote: »

if moving to an area with a management company, its worth checking out if there are any current issues with the MC.

You would be surprised how hard it is to get information of this nature from anyone when you are looking into buying a property.

martian1980

tHE vAGGABOND wrote: »

Ok then, I have never lived in an area with a managment company. I really dont care either way to be honest..

Could either side give us examples of places who's value has been effected [plus or minus] by having [or not having] a managment company?

I have been house hunting for well over a year [being ultra cautious in this environment] and to be honest when looking at apartments I look at the service charge amount and the condition of the grounds and general environent [indoors and out doors]. I would pay a bit more to live in a nice place, thats kept in good nick. I think most folks would be the same?

I live in an area with a management company. It's reasonably maintained, but no better maintained than portmarnock, where I grew up. The estates were well maintained there too. Granted, there are common spaces in apartment blocks that require a structure to govern their upkeep, but no way should that spread to the grounds and roads. People may point to conditions in their planning permissions where the local authority had abdicated responsiblity for all sorts of stuff, but from working a few years in the planning department of a local authority, I can say that there was real concern in there about people challenging it and having a very strong case, but no real legal challenge ever came - people were just content to "talk to joe".

As I said, there's a management company in the apartment development I live in now. It doesn't cost me - it costs the landlord. The rent I pay is dictated by the market, not by the landlord adding together his expenses and deciding on a rate of profit. If I was contemplating becoming an owner, the management company fee would have to impact negatively on my view of a property.

antoinolachtnai

faceman wrote: »

With regard to the original point about dishes etc. Paulw is correct, the management company is entited to enforce the terms of the property owner's leases, house rules etc. however the management company is restricted in how they act upon enforcing the rules. (They cannot for example remove satelite dishes themselves)

If it's on the management company's property (i.e., on the balcony or hanging off the outer fabric of the building) why not?

mick72

Hi again,

I live in an estate run by management company that is still in developer's hands since the last two units have not been sold. For what we pay (around €1000 a year), we certainly do not get value for it.

The Management Company tried removing satellite dishes on two occassions and it nearly ended up fighting. I was amonst those who said that I refuse to let anybody near my dish and if it takes use of physical force; so be it. I said to them I will not pay any fines and invited them to take me to court and let's argue about the clause and my human rights since they never engaged in any conversation in terms of communal dish installation

Paulw

I agree that going through accounts and that can be a bit confusing. I'm certainly no accountant, but I can work out the basics - ins and outs. But, if people don't ask questions, then others can't answer. People really need to get involved. Help out, ask questions, see what is going on. I've never had problems with people contacting me and asking about the running of the development. I encourage it.

It is always important to look around developments. One beside us has a mix of apartments and houses. Those with houses can certainly erect satellite dishes (which requires planning permission for front of building erection, in accordance with planning laws). Those in apartments cannot erect dishes. The management company has been actively removing any dishes mounted. Likewise in our development we have removed all dishes (with verbal complaints but nothing more).

Our development is quite well run and maintained. The nearest park (supposedly under the control of the council) is very poorly maintained, and I wouldn't let any kids out in it - broken glass, rubbish, dog waste etc. Numerous calls to the council, emails, and even visits from local TDs and councillors has not made any improvement to that.

It is very important for people to take control. Get involved in resident's associations and put yourself forward to be a director on the management company. You'd be surprised how many developments allow the developer to maintain control, when there is legally no need. It all depends on the management company articles. Also, as soon as we replaced the developers as directors, we also replaced the management agent.

When I looked to buy, I looked at managed developments such as the one I'm in now, and also freehold houses. In the end, I made my choice, and I don't regret that at all. I've been watching the general market for sales, and especially units sold in our development. We've no more or no less been effected by the general slowdown in the market.

There are many developments that are run by management companies. Some good and some bad. It's like everything in life. But, to write off a development just because it has a management company may be a little short sighted. In the end, it is, your personal choice. You need to be happy with where ever you decide to live.

lostexpectation

still nobody has explained a good reason for removing the satillite dishes

Calina

I think what it boils down to is this: "some people don't like them and they inflict their viewpoint on other people who actually want some utility from the dishes".

Of course, the response you'll get from some people is that the management contract says they can't be erected, but that begs the question, why is that provision in there?

SimpleSam06

Paulw wrote: »

I've been watching the general market for sales, and especially units sold in our development. We've no more or no less been effected by the general slowdown in the market.

Well not yet, anyway.

martian1980

SimpleSam06 wrote: »

Well not yet, anyway.

you've got some class posts on boards, SimpleSam - I particularly enjoyed the wine analogy

SimpleSam06

martian1980 wrote: »

you've got some class posts on boards, SimpleSam - I particularly enjoyed the wine analogy

Thanks, sure it wouldn't be boards without a little colour...

faceman

Calina wrote: »

You would be surprised how hard it is to get information of this nature from anyone when you are looking into buying a property.

Your solicitor can check to see if there are any legal disputes

faceman

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

If it's on the management company's property (i.e., on the balcony or hanging off the outer fabric of the building) why not?

this was covered in a previous thread, cant find it now

Calina

faceman wrote: »

Your solicitor can check to see if there are any legal disputes

I want to know about disputes before I make an offer and before my solicitor is checking contracts.

faceman

Calina wrote: »

I want to know about disputes before I make an offer and before my solicitor is checking contracts.

the best you have in that case is to ask one of the neighbours and do a search through courts.ie to see if there were ever any court cases.

Before i buy a property, i ring the gardai to ask them about the street and area, call to 2 houses on the street and google the area.

Paulw

A good website for checking areas is neighbours.ie

Other than that, ask people in the area, and certainly contact the local gardai for information.

I did all the above before I bought.

PWEI

Something similar has just happened to me lately.Normally I dont have a problem with satellite dish's but this takes the biscuit. I live in the first house on my road house number 1.There's is a row of houses around the corner from mine and some of the gardens back on to mine.One of the resistants has just erected a huge satellite dish on 14th foot pole.Because he has put it at the bottom left hand corner of the garden it is about 5feet away from my patio door.Not only is it clearly visible from my living room but its is also blocking light in to the room.I cannot sit and look at TV without seeing this monstrosity at the corner of my eye.On top of this it is also a safety hazard because if there is any strong winds and it falls it could easily fall in to my garden as the dish is so high up.I contacted Fingal and got through to their enforcement section.They said if it wasn't bigger than 1meter in diameter there was nothing they could do.I explained not only is it probably bigger than 1 meter in diameter but it has to be in breach of some law because of it been so high up.They told me to write them a letter to and they would send somebody out to have a look.I never thought a satellite dish would upset me so much.My Latvian neighbours dish is crossing the border but I didn't say anything about it because I can't see the dish.If I don't get any help from Fingal County Council,I will get on to my solicitor and threaten legal action.The residents are renting though so it might be hard to get the owner of the house.

faceman

it was a tree in his garden that he had planted, would you do the same?

Ste.phen

faceman wrote: »

it was a tree in his garden that he had planted, would you do the same?

Wouldn't that take many years before becoming visually intrusive?