The Mega **Management Company** thread

Moonbeam

The management company can be replaced once all the units have been sold and management can be handed over to the residents.
Maybe an EGM should be called.

spockety

the Management Company should be encouraged to get communal satellite dishes installed on the roof of the development. Sky will actually do this for you for next to nothing if you get more than 4 subscribers per block signed up with them.

People have a right to receive satellite signals, as has been posted above, and this has been debated before over on the Satellite forum on boards.ie

Inform your Management Company that unless and until they provide you with either a feed from a communal satellite dish, or advise you of a location where they are happy for you to install your dish, you see no other alternative other than to leave it where it is. Tell them that if they attempt to remove your dish, you will be seeking the advice of a solicitor given that as far as the European Commission are concerned you have a fundamental right to receive satellite signals.

Before anyone starts up the debate again about aesthetics etc., the commission clearly state that aesthetics or unreasonable planning reasons are no justification for denying someone access to satellite.

Basically you need to let your Management Company know that you are very flexible in terms of the location of your satellite or taking a feed from a communal one, but that you are not going to be flexible on your right to receive satellite signals.

Tell me, other than Satellite, is there by any chance a single cable company operating in your apartment complex?

faceman

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Yes, we should take our medicine, IF they come and cut down the dishes, but at the time the development was built, there was NO other option....

I guess we'll all have to bite the bullet and go to NTL, but given that in my (almost) 4.5 years in my house, this is the first time I have ever received any communication from the Mgt Co about it. It all seems very heavy handed though.

Just to be on the safe side WRT any possible fine or costs levied, I'll be cancelling my DD in the morning. The agents have been very imaginative in how and when they have taken money out in the past.

the management company CANNOT legally remove the satelite dish themselves, nor can they hire someone to do it for them unless they get a court order allowing them to do so.

They cannot fine you if its not stated in the contract.

Try to become more involved with the residents committee etc. Im sure you arent the only owner who wants a dish.

antoinolachtnai

Well, they may believe (and this is likely to be the case) that they, not you own the balcony and outer wall.

I would suggest you should try to find out why they are upset about this all of a sudden.

It may be that the council is putting some sort of pressure on them.

bobbysands81

Moonbeam wrote: »

The management company can be replaced once all the units have been sold and management can be handed over to the residents.
Maybe an EGM should be called.

You're mixing up Management co, management agents and direcotrs of management co by the sounds of things.

Directors can be changed on an annual basis or by EGM as long as the Management Co has been taken over by the unit owners.

Managing Agents can be changed by the Management Co.

Management Co (generally) cannot be changed as all legal documents will refer to them by name. There are odd occassions when it has happened (Hybla Court springs to mind after original Co went bust) but generally speaking it doesn't.

bobbysands81

faceman wrote: »

the management company CANNOT legally remove the satelite dish themselves, nor can they hire someone to do it for them unless they get a court order allowing them to do so.

They cannot fine you if its not stated in the contract.

Try to become more involved with the residents committee etc. Im sure you arent the only owner who wants a dish.

They can remove the dish as it is on and damaging their property. The person with the dish can also be sued.

It (the dish) must not leave the estate though as far as I know.

Whether you want a dish or not is irrelevant, you have signed a contract saying you can't have one.

bobbysands81

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, they may believe (and this is likely to be the case) that they, not you own the balcony and outer wall.

I would suggest you should try to find out why they are upset about this all of a sudden.

It may be that the council is putting some sort of pressure on them.

Or that people are complaining that the rules that everyone signed up to are being broken.

bobbysands81

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, the European Commission is of the view that you are entitled to have a satellite dish as a matter of European law. There is no Court ruling on this, though there is a ruling pointing in a similar direction. It's a matter of the right to trade freely and the right to cultural impression.

Here are some relevant links.

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?p=666096

Then, some relevant 'communication' from the Commission, fairly comprehensive stuff

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=COM:2001:0351:FIN:EN:PDF

And finally some responses to petitions

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/cm/601/601591/601591en.pdf

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/meetdocs/2004_2009/documents/cm/617/617113/617113en.pdf

finally, a discussion on the general situation in germany (where the general right to watch television from abroad via satellite appears to be well established). Rights and urban planning can co-exist, they say.

http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t872.html

slightly relevant ecj ruling:

http://merlin.obs.coe.int/iris/2002/1/article5.en.html

Nobody is denying the right of people to have a satellite dish though, you can have one in your house if you like.

You are not allowed to have them on property that does not belong to you.

spockety

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Nobody is denying the right of people to have a satellite dish though, you can have one in your house if you like.

You are not allowed to have them on property that does not belong to you.

Read here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055124066

And here:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055132609

You are a shareholder in a co-operative that owns the building. That co-operative is not allowed to put blanket rules in place which prevent you from receiving satellite signals. Of course this does not mean you can stick a dish up wherever you want, necessarily, but it does mean that your Management Company are obliged to either help you by advising on a suitable location for your own dish, or installing a communal dish that everyone can access.

Did you read any of the links that were posted?

antoinolachtnai

I'm not sure about that. The management company is not a stranger in law to the person who owns the apartment. Comparisons are odious, but the FCC in the US has copperfastened the rights of tenants there to have dishes.

But this is the reason why I say it is important to find out who has the problem - the management company, or the local authority.

mikedragon32

Perhaps I should qualify the speculation to state that I live in a HOUSE which is part of a terrace. There are apartment/duplexes in the development too.

Therefore to access the dish, they would have to come up my driveway, therefore entering MY property, which, if they do so without my permission, could be considered tresspass(?). I would also consider the wall as being my property also. Would this be correct?

spockety

If you're in a house I would imagine you own the walls yes!

Is the dish mounted on the front of your house? Planning doesn't allow this. If it is on the front of your house, is there no way you could move it to the rear? You might need to mount it on a garden wall to get line of sight but at least nobody else will see it.

bobbysands81

mikedragon32 wrote: »

Perhaps I should qualify the speculation to state that I live in a HOUSE which is part of a terrace. There are apartment/duplexes in the development too.

Therefore to access the dish, they would have to come up my driveway, therefore entering MY property, which, if they do so without my permission, could be considered tresspass(?). I would also consider the wall as being my property also. Would this be correct?

Yup, the walls should be yours.

I would imagine that in your agreement with the Management Co that you would have signed when you bought your place that there is a clause which says that you must let them onto your property at a reasonable time (more than likely you cannot refuse them access), in other words if they really want to take the dish down they probably can.

podge018

You have a right to satelite signal.

You don't have a right to fix a dish to a wall you do not own.

antoinolachtnai

'right to satellite reception' is what the Commission is arguing for.

If the owner of the wall proposes an alternative to attaching to the wall, that would seem fine to me.

Do you think that free-standing satellite dishes on balconies are ok?

I do wish people with satellite dishes would try a bit harder to make them less obtrusive. There are a lot of ways of doing this.

spockety

podge018 wrote: »

You have a right to satelite signal.

You don't have a right to fix a dish to a wall you do not own.

Debated to death. You are a shareholder of a co-operative (Management Company) which owns the wall. The commission refer specifically to these kind of cases. In fact, it is usually only in these kind of cases that the issue arises!

If your co-operative (Management Company) does not aid you in your quest to locate a satellite dish, you are probably left with no alternative but to put it on the wall outside your apartment.

bobbysands81

spockety wrote: »

Debated to death. You are a shareholder of a co-operative (Management Company) which owns the wall. The commission refer specifically to these kind of cases. In fact, it is usually only in these kind of cases that the issue arises!

If your co-operative (Management Company) does not aid you in your quest to locate a satellite dish, you are probably left with no alternative but to put it on the wall outside your apartment.

Is this EU stuff not just a Directive? Is it actual law? I don't think it is.

The Management Co have every right to take a satellite dish off their property that does not have permission to be there and this will remain the case until someone challenges this in court.

If you don't like the rules that are in place don't sign up to them.

Nobody is stopping you from erecting a satellite dish in your kitchen/sitting room/bedroom etc...

I'd imagine if someone wanted to take a test case that SKY would be more than happy to part fund it as they stand to make a mint from this if they were allowed put their dishes in apartment blocks.

Do you not think that SKY would have already taken a case if everything is as black and white as you make it out to be? It would only cost them a few grand to do so and their potential income would go through the roof if they won.

faceman

bobbysands81 wrote: »

They can remove the dish as it is on and damaging their property. The person with the dish can also be sued.

It (the dish) must not leave the estate though as far as I know.

They cannot remove the dish without a court order (i.e. suing you)

wrote:

Whether you want a dish or not is irrelevant, you have signed a contract saying you can't have one.

Yes but if the contract is unlawful it renders it void.

spockety

bobbysands81 wrote: »

Is this EU stuff not just a Directive? Is it actual law? I don't think it is.

Yes it is a directive, not a law. However, the commission's view on it is pretty plain to see, they are hardly being ambigous even in relation to apartment blocks where the owner of an apartment only owns the outside wall via a shareholder's co-operative. I don't think you'll ever see a test case here. What Management Company in their right mind would read the EU directive, and then waste their shareholders money (tens of thosuands of euro in court fees?) to bring a case? As a management company shareholder, I would be absolutely furious if I found out that my Management Company was using my annual maintenance fee to bring a court case against someone for having a satellite dish up! Why on earth can they not just come to an agreement with the apartment owner on where a dish can be discreetly placed (roof), or better still have a communal dish installed that will serve anyone in the development who wants to exercise their right to receive satellite TV!

The Management Co have every right to take a satellite dish off their property that does not have permission to be there and this will remain the case until someone challenges this in court.

If you don't like the rules that are in place don't sign up to them.

If you signed a contract that said "Owners are not allowed to park Toyotas in the car park", do you think it would be an enforcable rule?

Nobody is stopping you from erecting a satellite dish in your kitchen/sitting room/bedroom etc...

Now you're just being ridiculous.

I'd imagine if someone wanted to take a test case that SKY would be more than happy to part fund it as they stand to make a mint from this if they were allowed put their dishes in apartment blocks.

Sky's preferred method when installing dishes in apartment blocks is to put one discreet dish in place that can serve the entire development.

http://www.skyinyourapartment.ie/

bobbysands81

spockety wrote: »

Yes it is a directive, not a law.

Thank you.

Laws are what matter though, not what someone's opinion is. When the opinion of the EU becomes law then it will matter. At the moment it matters not a jot.

My opinion is that I don't care whether people have satellite dishes up but it is irrelevant as they are not allowed up in estates, you knew this before moving into your estate and you still moved in therefore agreeing to abide by the rules that you are contractually obliged to abide by.

spockety wrote: »

I don't think you'll ever see a test case here. What Management Company in their right mind would read the EU directive, and then waste their shareholders money (tens of thosuands of euro in court fees?) to bring a case? As a management company shareholder, I would be absolutely furious if I found out that my Management Company was using my annual maintenance fee to bring a court case against someone for having a satellite dish up! Why on earth can they not just come to an agreement with the apartment owner on where a dish can be discreetly placed (roof), or better still have a communal dish installed that will serve anyone in the development who wants to exercise their right to receive satellite TV!

I'm not talking about a Management Co taking a test case, I'm talking about someone like you who feels that somehow their civil liberties are being impinged upon by not being allowed put up a dish on your house/apartment.

spockety wrote: »

If you signed a contract that said "Owners are not allowed to park Toyotas in the car park", do you think it would be an enforcable rule?

Now you're being ridiculous mate! Why on earth would someone put that clause in a contract? If a facetious clause like that was in the contract then it would be up to your solicitor to get it taken out. Remember you agreed to this standard clause being put in your contract. I have never heard of a clause being entered where Toyota's are not allowed in an apartment complex, satellite dishes have many reasons why they are not allowed in apartment complexes from aesthetical reasons to potentially damaging walls that they are mounted on.

spockety wrote: »

Sky's preferred method when installing dishes in apartment blocks is to put one discreet dish in place that can serve the entire development.

http://www.skyinyourapartment.ie/

An excellent compromise.

bobbysands81

faceman wrote: »

They cannot remove the dish without a court order (i.e. suing you)



Yes but if the contract is unlawful it renders it void.

They can remove the dish but it has to stay within the overall property of the estate as far as I know.

For instance they can take the dish down and place it is a store room within the development.

Why not challenge the contract in court if you feel it is unlawful? The contract is not unlawful, it is the complete opposite.

spockety

bobbysands81 wrote: »

An excellent compromise.

I accept that there are good reasons why apartment Management Companies do not want people to lash up dishes on external walls (damage to the wall, potential eyesore depending on the installation, etc.).

But given that the EC believe that it is a fundamental right of a person residing in the EU to receive satellite signals, surely you must also accept that outright blanket bans on satellite dishes in estates where Management Companies have rulesets are not only unfair, but unenforcable (the directive, and further clarification on the directive make it absolutely 100% crystal clear that blanket bans by management companies are totally unacceptable. You don't need to think long about how a european court would rule were it to come to that, surely?)?

It is surely common sense, when you take into account the need to protect the structure of the building, the aspirational desire for people to live in a nice environment, as well as the overriding right of a person to receive satellite television, that measures be put in place on the ground in these developments that protect EVERYONE's interests? There are a lot of people arguing on this thread, and already argued to death on other threads, that it is "just tough, you signed the contract so live with it". Why are they/you unwilling to even accept that blanket bans fly in the face of a person's right to receive satellite TV?

The best way to ensure that everyone is happy, in my opinion, and in order of preference, is:

1) There can be no outright and blanket ban. It is unfair, and inflexible.

2) Management Companies (or even better, developers when building) should be encouraged to install a communal satellite system that serves everyone in the development who wants Satellite TV. This is a single dish, out of the way, with a distribution system in place to enable anyone to have it wired to their apartment.

3) Apartment owners should first enquire to their Management Company about a communal dish, if one does not exist already. If they do not get positive feedback from their management company about a communal dish, they should then advise the Management Company that they wish to exercise their right to receive satellite TV, and seek the advice of the Management Company on what they feel is a suitable location to place their satellite dish. If again they do not get any positive feedback from their Management Company, or the Management Company makes unreasonable demands (in relation to costs etc., again this is dealt with in the directive and further clarification), then the person should see if it is possible for them to erect a free standing dish on their balcony/terrace.

4) If all of the above have failed, there is no communal dish, the Management Company have indicated no willingness to get one installed or advise as to a suitable location for the owners personal dish, and there is no balcony or terrace available for a free standing dish, then the owner is left with no choice other than to find their own location for the dish, whether it involves installing on a wall (which they part own via their shareholding in the Management Company) or not.


There are a lot of people in Ireland who have bought apartments where blanket bans on dishes are in place purely to protect the interests of a (usually small time) cable television operator who is put in place by the developer (backhanders?). This is totally unacceptable. People should have freedom of choice for how they receive television, or what products are available to them.

We live in a free country in the 21st century, not North Korea.


EDIT: A debate has kicked off on the Legal forum about this issue:

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055383761

bobbysands81

spockety wrote: »

I accept that there are good reasons why apartment Management Companies do not want people to lash up dishes on external walls (damage to the wall, potential eyesore depending on the installation, etc.).

But given that the EC believe that it is a fundamental right of a person residing in the EU to receive satellite signals, surely you must also accept that outright blanket bans on satellite dishes in estates where Management Companies have rulesets are not only unfair, but unenforcable (the directive, and further clarification on the directive make it absolutely 100% crystal clear that blanket bans by management companies are totally unacceptable. You don't need to think long about how a european court would rule were it to come to that, surely?)?

The bans are completely enforceable as you have a contract stating that you won't do something.. but you go and do it and not even on property that you own.

This will not change until the European Courts rule otherwise.

spockety wrote: »

1) There can be no outright and blanket ban. It is unfair, and inflexible.

Why did you sign the contract then if you deemed it unfair and inflexible?

spockety wrote: »

2) Management Companies (or even better, developers when building) should be encouraged to install a communal satellite system that serves everyone in the development who wants Satellite TV. This is a single dish, out of the way, with a distribution system in place to enable anyone to have it wired to their apartment.

Fully agree

spockety wrote: »

3) Apartment owners should first enquire to their Management Company about a communal dish, if one does not exist already. If they do not get positive feedback from their management company about a communal dish, they should then advise the Management Company that they wish to exercise their right to receive satellite TV, and seek the advice of the Management Company on what they feel is a suitable location to place their satellite dish. If again they do not get any positive feedback from their Management Company, or the Management Company makes unreasonable demands (in relation to costs etc., again this is dealt with in the directive and further clarification), then the person should see if it is possible for them to erect a free standing dish on their balcony/terrace.

Usually people do not own their balcomies/terraces either and therefore have no right to put what they want on them.

spockety wrote: »

4) If all of the above have failed, there is no communal dish, the Management Company have indicated no willingness to get one installed or advise as to a suitable location for the owners personal dish, and there is no balcony or terrace available for a free standing dish, then the owner is left with no choice other than to find their own location for the dish, whether it involves installing on a wall (which they part own via their shareholding in the Management Company) or not.

So if you decide you no longer want to live by the rules of the estate cos you don't like them then what will happen if everyone decides to not live by the rules cos they don't like them?

spockety wrote: »

There are a lot of people in Ireland who have bought apartments where blanket bans on dishes are in place purely to protect the interests of a (usually small time) cable television operator who is put in place by the developer (backhanders?). This is totally unacceptable. People should have freedom of choice for how they receive television, or what products are available to them.

We live in a free country in the 21st century, not North Korea.

A superb point.

We're actually agreeing on most things pal!

Victor

Only a judge can fine someone. Teh management company could do with being informed properly.

A contract may however foresee situations where damages will arise and specify liquidated damages. These however must be reasonable and reflect the actual losses that are expected and cannot be designed to penalise a party.

antoinolachtnai

That is not true. You don't need to be a judge to fine or penalize someone. There are all sorts of administrative penalties that other people can apply.

faceman

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is not true. You don't need to be a judge to fine or penalize someone. There are all sorts of administrative penalties that other people can apply.

Fines must be included your contract to be valid.

avantarklu

Specifically in relation to the OP's original question regarding the legality of the imposition of a fine by a Mgt Co, the rules that are specific to op's Mgt Co (the Articles and Memorandum of Association of the Company) state the following:

"To make and lay down rules, regulations, restrictions and bye laws for Unit owners and other users/occupiers of Units or car parking spaces within the Estate or any part thereof and to alter, vary, amend and add to same from time to time".

A definition of a 'bye-law' includes a rule adopted by a Company chiefly for the government of its members and the regulation of its affairs.
This would suggest to me that the Directors are specifically empowered to take any action necessary for the effective operation of the Company.
If a rule or contract term has been set and agreed (in this case the fixing of satellite dishes to external walls) and is now being breached, then the Directors are obliged to remedy the situation.
I would suggest that it could be easily deemed reasonable that the threat and\or imposition of a fine against members in breach of such a rule would provide an effective and quick resolution to the breach, then the above provides them with that power.

Now, if the OP were to accept the above, it is not inconceivable to suggest that such power could be used to pass an alternative bye-law, thereby rendering ineffective such an unfavourable rule or contract term. Of course, it would require a suitably sympathetic Board of Directors !

uberwolf

faceman wrote: »

They cannot remove the dish without a court order (i.e. suing you)



Yes but if the contract is unlawful it renders it void.

this isn't aimed at you directly faceman, but I've been involved in this kind of converstation once or twice before and haven't had a straight answer on it.

As an apartment owner / occupier, I do not own my balcony or exterior walls. Therefore I can't put a satellite dish up, no more than I can attach it to my neighbours car.

I can put it up in my property (and if my contract stipulated otherwise that would be illegal under the directive you're referring to.) So interior walls are ok. (as is my car )

That's my simplistic view on the matter. Is there a flaw?

faceman

uberwolf wrote: »

this isn't aimed at you directly faceman, but I've been involved in this kind of converstation once or twice before and haven't had a straight answer on it.

As an apartment owner / occupier, I do not own my balcony or exterior walls. Therefore I can't put a satellite dish up, no more than I can attach it to my neighbours car.

I can put it up in my property (and if my contract stipulated otherwise that would be illegal under the directive you're referring to.) So interior walls are ok. (as is my car )

That's my simplistic view on the matter. Is there a flaw?

Your contract will most likely stipulate that you can't attach a dish to the exterior walls. What you do inside your apt is your own business. As for free standing dishes on your balcony, many contracts have a clause that determines what can and can't be put on a balcony. But it's worded vaguely

Is that your question?

Victor

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

That is not true. You don't need to be a judge to fine or penalize someone. There are all sorts of administrative penalties that other people can apply.

No. Punishing people is reserved for judges.

Sure you can have pre-determined administrative fees, but these can not be designed to punish.