The Mega **Management Company** thread

Stephen P

Just a quick question to ask if anyone has ever brought a management agent to court or threathened it due to the management agent not doing anything in the development or getting bad value for money spent on service charges?
My management agent don't do anything only get the bins collected and the blocks cleaned. There are loads of bulbs gone in the corrider and outside in carpark which is dangerous and they won't replace them. Its so frustrating to be paying a lot of money when they don't seem to be doing much. Surely I'd have a case in court?? Or would I?
If I didn't pay my fee's and they took me to court would I have a case then?

Paulw

Firstly, the management agent can't take you to court for not paying your fees. Only the management company can.

There lies the issue - you pay your management fees to the management company.

The management company employ a management agent. So, in theory, the management company could take action against the management agent, but they would need to have proof that things were not being done right, and then the directors of the management company would have to explain why they did not act.

It is up to the directors of the management company to ensure that the funds are being spent properly.

So, your first step should be to contact the directors of the management company and ask them to explain how your fees are being spent.

Stephen P

Thanks Paulw,
The developement was never handed over so the current directors are in some way connected to the builders and/or developer. I got their details off the CRO's website so I think it's time I wrote them a letter asking them where my money is being spent. Most likely they won't know?? Are they obliged to reply to me? If I don't get a reply from them where do I go to next?

Paulw wrote: »

Firstly, the management agent can't take you to court for not paying your fees. Only the management company can.

There lies the issue - you pay your management fees to the management company.

The management company employ a management agent. So, in theory, the management company could take action against the management agent, but they would need to have proof that things were not being done right, and then the directors of the management company would have to explain why they did not act.

It is up to the directors of the management company to ensure that the funds are being spent properly.

So, your first step should be to contact the directors of the management company and ask them to explain how your fees are being spent.

Paulw

Best thing - form a resident's association.

List your issues and complaints.

Send the directors registered letters and then follow up 3-4 days later with a phone call.

Then you will have the fun of chasing and chasing.

The directors of the company have a legal obligation towards the shareholders of the company, so I would be very surprised if they don't respond to you, in some form.

BC

Has an AGM of the mgmt company been held and did you attend? If it hasn't, write to the directors and ask for the date, if it has then ask for minutes
At the AGM you are entitled to see the accounts for the previous year. This should show you what the money is going on . If you don't get an answer from the directors then ask the agent the same questions.

As well as bins, i'm sure the fees go on ESB in the common areas and block insurance. These are the two most expensive items in my mgmt company.
The agent should be able to tell you if fees have been received from all apartments. Its very possible that not everyone has paid so there is no money to do the necessary things.

As someone else said, the management agent is just an employee of the management company. They have no interest in the development and can be sacked if they are not doing what is necessary.

anotherlostie

BC wrote: »

Has an AGM of the mgmt company been held and did you attend? If it hasn't, write to the directors and ask for the date, if it has then ask for minutes
At the AGM you are entitled to see the accounts for the previous year. This should show you what the money is going on . If you don't get an answer from the directors then ask the agent the same questions.

Unfortunately the developers are getting cute in this area too. Our development has not been handed over yet, and the statutes of the management company state that the unit owners shall not receive a share in the company until all units are sold, and in the current climate we'll be waiting. (This of course may not be the case in the OP's development but should be checked).

Stephen P

AFAIK all units have been sold so I don't know why it hasn't been handed over to the residents. I don't know how true this is but I heard a while back that the management agent where waiting to get a bit of money together to carry out the final snag on the development. That was months ago and heard nothing about it since. I was told recently that they were working on the accounts and once they're completed they'll organise an AGM, I checked the CRO's website and I've ordered a copy of the accounts for 2007 so they're done so don't know why they haven't called an AGM.
Earlier this year they sent the charge and a breakdown of the charges, they listed off everything like ESB, waste etc... then listed Management Fee's, which were a few thousand. What could this fee be?

Paulw

Well, the management fee that they list is normally their charge for what they do.

If they haven't called an AGM, you (with the right number of people) have the right to call an EGM, and ask them to explain what is happening.

In our development, the common area hasn't been handed over to the management company. The developer hasn't finished the snag on that, but we still removed them. All units had been sold.

You may be able to actually remove them as directors, and then replace the management agent. Feel free to PM me if you want some advice on how we did it all.

Stephen P

Thanks Paulw, I'll keep that in mind.
I'll give them another few weeks to see if they call an AGM and then try to push the directors to call one. I'll challenge them on some issues at the AGM and see what happens.
Thanks again for all the help.

Paulw wrote: »

Well, the management fee that they list is normally their charge for what they do.

If they haven't called an AGM, you (with the right number of people) have the right to call an EGM, and ask them to explain what is happening.

In our development, the common area hasn't been handed over to the management company. The developer hasn't finished the snag on that, but we still removed them. All units had been sold.

You may be able to actually remove them as directors, and then replace the management agent. Feel free to PM me if you want some advice on how we did it all.

Irlbo

[Victor]See post 3 for more readable version.[/Victor]

APOLIGIES FOR LACK OF SPACES AND FORMAT AND FOR SOME REASON THIS IS ONLY FORMAT IT WILL ALLOW ME TO USE,Hello all,just wondering can anyone help me???Im at the end of my teather,Im renting a one bed apartment with my heavily pregnant girlfriend,its a nice cozy little place that we're using until we have a house,we have a one year lease with a landlord,it all gravy,lovely area,quiet,amenities close by etc etc,But we are having a nightmare with the people who live over us,since about the end of july,there has been nothing but noise from them,and its not some little thuds and bumps,we're talking full on bangs and screeches,Basically from 8'O Clock at night to sometimes as late as 1am in the morning,there is the sound of lound thumps on a wooden floor,banging,furniture being moved around causing loud screeches,drills,rumbling and I could go on,myself and my girlfriend are up at 6am for work,and we are kept awake and irritated immensely by it,When we first noticed the noise,they were we going in and out of the apartment block,carrying furniture,cabinets,tools etc,I went out and told them the noise wasnt on,my girlfriend is pregnant,keep it down,as polite as could be,I got the reply,'sorry bud,we'll keep it down'',But they didnt and it continued,so I contacted my landlord and he told me the management company would send them a letter saying there was a complaint about noise and it should stop,But alas.the noise continued and we started waking up later in the morning and suffering fatigue through the day,I went up to them and complained but I realised I was dealing with one for a better word 'Gobsh*tes',excuse my french and it nearly resulted in an angry exchange,so I decided this wasnt best root to solve the problemAs the noise got worse,I called the landlord again,and he said he'd sort it out,he contacted the management company who contacted the neighbours,the landlord got back to us,told us that the management company had told hime they had spoke to the owners(who live there),and they were sorry about the noise and they would desist in doing any more work after 8'o clock,We were satisfied and thought it was all sorted but we were wrong,the noise got worse and later,so we decided to bypass the landlord and go to the management company direct,they told us they would give them verbal warning,but since they were the owners there was very little they could do,but I was also told that they had put down wooden floors and that was illegal because it was a 2-storey apartemnt block and because of the structure of the building,and that they would have to remove it or they would be hit with legal action,One night the noise was so bad at 11pm on a Wednesday,my girlfriend called gaurds,they arrived and we told them situation,they went up and when came back down told us they had giving them warning but very little else they can they and to contact the landlordContacted landlord again,he went up himself,but he tells us his hands are tied because they are the owners and we just rent,and its all in hands of management company,I really dont know what to do,Id love to just pack up my stuff and but my girls 8 months and dosent want lose the 1000 deposit that we really need,Im think about going to a solicitor,and taking legal action agianst the neighbours and the management company for doing nothing,has anybody any advice?</p>

mrgaa1

Whenever the noise starts go up, knock the door and ask to see what is going on. Take your girlfirend with you and it will be apparant her condition. Explain that if you understood what was going on it'd make your lives easier. Try and get inside their flat and see what is going on.

If none of the above works then:
Does the door of your "neighbour" have a letter box? If so perhaps the usage of stink-bombs, a few mice etc... may sort it out.

Victor

Improved original post.

APOLIGIES FOR LACK OF SPACES AND FORMAT AND FOR SOME REASON THIS IS ONLY FORMAT IT WILL ALLOW ME TO USE,

Hello all, just wondering can anyone help me? I’m at the end of my tether, I’m renting a one bed apartment with my heavily pregnant girlfriend, its a nice cosy little place that we're using until we have a house, we have a one year lease with a landlord, it all gravy, lovely area, quiet, amenities close by etc, But we are having a nightmare with the people who live over us, since about the end of July, there has been nothing but noise from them, and its not some little thuds and bumps, we're talking full on bangs and screeches, Basically from 8'O Clock at night to sometimes as late as 1am in the morning, there is the sound of loud thumps on a wooden floor, banging, furniture being moved around causing loud screeches, drills, rumbling and I could go on, myself and my girlfriend are up at 6am for work, and we are kept awake and irritated immensely by it,

When we first noticed the noise, they were we going in and out of the apartment block, carrying furniture, cabinets, tools etc, I went out and told them the noise wasn’t on, my girlfriend is pregnant, keep it down, as polite as could be, I got the reply, 'sorry bud, we'll keep it down'', But they didn’t and it continued, so I contacted my landlord and he told me the management company would send them a letter saying there was a complaint about noise and it should stop,

But alas, the noise continued and we started waking up later in the morning and suffering fatigue through the day, I went up to them and complained but I realised I was dealing with one for a better word 'Gobsh*tes', excuse my French and it nearly resulted in an angry exchange, so I decided this wasn’t best root to solve the problem

As the noise got worse, I called the landlord again, and he said he'd sort it out, he contacted the management company who contacted the neighbours, the landlord got back to us, told us that the management company had told him they had spoke to the owners (who live there), and they were sorry about the noise and they would desist in doing any more work after 8'o clock,

We were satisfied and thought it was all sorted but we were wrong, the noise got worse and later, so we decided to bypass the landlord and go to the management company direct, they told us they would give them verbal warning, but since they were the owners there was very little they could do, but I was also told that they had put down wooden floors and that was illegal because it was a 2-storey apartment block and because of the structure of the building, and that they would have to remove it or they would be hit with legal action, One night the noise was so bad at 11pm on a Wednesday, my girlfriend called guards, they arrived and we told them situation, they went up and when came back down told us they had giving them warning but very little else they can they and to contact the landlord

Contacted landlord again, he went up himself, but he tells us his hands are tied because they are the owners and we just rent, and its all in hands of management company, I really don’t know what to do, Id love to just pack up my stuff and but my girls 8 months and doesn’t want lose the 1000 deposit that we really need, I’m think about going to a solicitor, and taking legal action against the neighbours and the management company for doing nothing, has anybody any advice?

PDD

Hi Folks,

I was hoping someone here could tell me if there are any services companys out there that specifically offer assistance in the removal of an ineffective management company?

Ive just received a letter that my management fees are going up another 15% this year to cover a 'deficit' in projected budget. From the accounts if you can call them that the biggest expense (46.3% of total outgoings) was for the management agents fees. There is no sinking fund to speak of and the management company has taken absolutely no action whatsoever to attempt to reduce running costs (apart from the old reliable not fixing broken stuff). I have had it up to my eyes with them and I want them out as soon as possible.

The development is mixed (detached, semi-detached, duplex & apartments) and ultimately I would like to have the apartments seperate but Im not sure if this is possible. Also the developer has not finished the estate leaving about 10% of it poured as just foundations in order to retain planning permission for when theres another boom.

Anybody who has had any experience in dealing with any one of these issues your advice and feedback is welcome.

Dave

PDD

Hi Folks,

I was wondering if anyone here knows if water supply and sewage disposal are included in standard management fees for an apartment block and if they can be used to claim tax relief.

I know that refuse charges are included and that they can be claimed back but from looking at the Revenue website you can also claim back domestic water charges and sewage disposal which I presume the management company has to pay to the local council for the apartment block.

Regards,

Dave

The_Conductor

PDD wrote: »

Hi Folks,

I was wondering if anyone here knows if water supply and sewage disposal are included in standard management fees for an apartment block and if they can be used to claim tax relief.

I know that refuse charges are included and that they can be claimed back but from looking at the Revenue website you can also claim back domestic water charges and sewage disposal which I presume the management company has to pay to the local council for the apartment block.

Regards,

Dave

No and no.
There is (as yet) no charge for domestic water supply. The management company is not charged for this by the council. Ditto sewage. You can, as you are doing, claim a credit for refuse disposal, but thats it.......

PDD

@SMCCarrick - cheers for the feedback, I knew that a normal house doesnt pay water or sewage charges but wasn't sure about apartments.

For anyone else reading in order to claim back the tax for refuse from your service charges simply contact your management agent asking them for a statement of what portion of your management fee's are for refuse collection. Then fill out the IT27 form available from the Revenue Comissioners here:

http://www.revenue.ie/leaflets/it27.pdfhttp://www.revenue.ie/leaflets/it27.pdf

Paulw

Ok, firstly, you're probably talking about removing the management agent, and/or removing the developer as management company directors. In most cases, it's almost impossible to remove the actual management company.

Your best plan - form a resident's association and take it from there. Group action works best.

Since the development is not completed, you may have a very hard time. Usually there is a stipulation in the company articles that the management company will not be handed over to the shareholders until all units are sold. You can, though, hassle the sitting directors until they start to listen.

Always send them registered letters. Keep records of all contact made - dates/times/content of any letters, emails, phone calls, etc.

Pick your fights. Chase the directors on the big issues, and hassle the management agent on the small issues.

Best of luck.

The_Conductor

I lobbied to try to have Management Charges in their entirety allowable as a tax deduction, on the basis that those in non-managed estates generally have the council provide most of the services a management company is forced to provide- paid from general taxation. Shane Ross agreed with me- and undertook to try to introduce an amendment at Committee stage, but it got shot down.......

connundrum

Not being funny, but there are probably 10 - 15 threads on the same topic. A quick search could help you.

PDD

I completely agree SMC. Its probably less likey to go through now that the goverment is trying to pull the gold fillings from peoples teeth to prop up the public finances. It definately is unfair on those who are living in apartments.

The vast majority of apartment owners use it as a first step on the property ladder and get shafted for it. Hopefully new legislation will bring some relief to the circus thats happening now but until then I would not recommend that anyone by an apartment as its just too much bull**** and diminished rights when compared to owning a house.

PDD

@connundrum yes you are completely correct however I was hoping to see how many people were successful in ousting a management agent or replacing the directors of their managment company.

Might I suggest a sticky thread for this topic if it is that popular? And an admin should feel free to delete this thread as there are many others dealing with the topic.

The_Conductor

Consider it done. I'll do a quick trawl and see if I can find likely candidate threads. If I've missed any- please post them here and I'll do a tidyup later. Cheers, SMcCarrick

PDD

Complex: Primrose Gate, Celbridge
Appartment: 2 bed
Annual Service Charge: €1150(app) with 250 increase this year.
Management Agents: Rosneys (sole trader)

The estate is mixed with detached, semi-D, duplex and apartments. Its about two years old but there is no sinking fund to speak and our 'management agent' has chargeds us 48K for the privlidge.

Stephen P

I mentioned this on another post somewhere...on the 2007 accounts for my development under "Expenses" it lists "Management Fees", it jumped nearly €20,000 in one year. Are the managing agent or management company obliged to show what this expense was spent on? Someone said its the managing agents fee but what do they do for this? And why would it increase by about €20,000 in one year?

markpb

The management fee is the charge from the agent who runs your management company on your behalf. It covers some or all of: tendering for services and contracts, answering queries from owners and contractors, paying bills, collecting service charges, keeping books of account, filing accounts with the CRO, filing B10s with the CRO, issuing membership certificates to new owners, providing an out of hours phone number, etc.

Usually though they'll split their charge up into one main charge and several smaller charges. The smaller expenses show up as secretarial fees (for acting as your company secretary), emergency services (for the out of hours service) or health and safety fees (god knows what) although there may be more.

The managing agent provides a service to you, just like the refuse collection company or the landscapers. They don't have to show you a breakdown of their charge because it's their up-front charge (just like the window cleaner doesn't tell you how much is going on rental, insurance, etc, they just give you one price). They do have to break down all the other costs however.

If it goes up by such a sizeable amount, you should definitely be asking questions and, if you have control of the company, be pushing your directors to tender for a new agent. Normally it goes up because the agent feels there is more work than was previously expected, because they're providing more services (most will charge extra to supervise big projects such as capital improvement) or just because they think they can get away with it since the owners aren't in charge and the developer doesn't care.

Stephen P

Thanks for the info. The residents aren't in charge yet. Any time the residents phone up we're told that there's no money in the account due to some landlords not paying the service charges. We're having terrible trouble with people coming in vandalising things, drawing graffiti on the corridor walls (which the residents had to paint because we were told it won't be painted) and breaking into cars in the supposed-to-be secure underground car park. The car park gate is broke for a number of weeks and there never has been a secure door into each block so people can come and go as they please. The agents are working with the builders to fix these things but who knows how long it will take. I regret the day I bought the property!

Stephen P

breakingnews.ie wrote:

A new guide is being launched today in an effort to reduce the number of disputes between apartment owners and property management companies.

There has been much anecdotal evidence in recent years of such companies failing to carry out the duties they are paid to do by residents of apartment blocks.

The Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, which is publishing the new guide today, has also had to deal with a growing number of cases where the management companies have failed to give apartment owners information they are entitled to.

The ODCE guide aims to give each side a better understanding of their rights and responsibilities.

- breakingnews.ie

Guides on www.odce.ie

Dino72

Has anyone seen the new site www.right2manage.ie ?

Its a site that will be taking stories from people and there seems to be a rick load of them on this thread - and then giving some expert legal feedback when they are in trouble. Also should have good news stories awell.

Maybe its worth a look sometime?

Sizzler

Just been released also, worth a read -

http://www.odce.ie/en/media_decision_notices_article.aspx?article=12636a04-7d07-4aa8-ba47-eeeb9a8fbc74&mode=author

Dino72

Thanks Sizzler.