The Mega **Management Company** thread

athtrasna

Is the developer still the director or are there owner directors? Sounds like it might be the developer. First of all you need to go through your deeds/lease to clarify the situation with the parking,

Then your best bet is to talk to other owners and see if you can call an EGM to raise these issues and possibly elect additional or replacement directors.

markpb

Lyndan wrote: »

What if the directors decide they never want to come off as directors? Right now they control everything maybe they always want it that way. We share a development with a commercial shop and although they lease the building the shop is in we have heard that they rent the carparking spaces at the front of our development (ones which we thought would be our visitor carparking spaces).

Welcome to the world of Irish apartment living. If the developer doesn't want to give up control of the board or ownership of the common areas, there's very little you can do. Some developers in Dublin have retained rights for over a decade without any change.

What you can do is:

- check your lease agreement to see if they've written in any special arrangements such as preference or golden shares to make sure they can never be out voted

- check your lease agreement to see if they've pulled a sneaky one and not made anyone a shareholder until the common areas have been transferred

- find some people willing to go onto the board, drop flyers around the apartments with your names and asking people to go to the AGM and vote for then. 2 weeks before the AGM, make sure all the paperwork goes to the company secretary (usually the managing agent) nominating those people. At best, you could end up sharing the board with the developer.

Lyndan

Thanks Mark. Yes best case scenario for us right now is to share the board with the developers. We are trying to get to meet with 1 of them as we have never met him and we want to get the ball rolling.

Our directors have never turned up for an AGM - we have had 3 so far. Do they have to be present at the AGM if we want to get one of the residents voted on?

antoinolachtnai

In general, no they don't. But they might be able to block you.

It is worth knowing about the concept of 'oppression of a minority interest'.

Who actually runs your AGM's? Does the board send someone along to run the meeting?

Paulw

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Who actually runs your AGM's? Does the board send someone along to run the meeting?

I'd guess that in most cases, the Management Agent is sent as a representative of the board.

You should try to get a group of people together, and ask for a meeting with the board of directors. Failing that, if you get enough people (check your articles for a quorum number) you can actually force them to call an EGM.

markpb

Paulw wrote: »

I'd guess that in most cases, the Management Agent is sent as a representative of the board

You're right in this but I think it's a flaw that could be used to the advantage of apartment owners. If the agent is also the company secretary, I'd be fairly sure they couldn't vote on behalf of the developer/directors.

There was a case a few years ago (apartment block in the city centre) where an AGM was called, the developer had golden votes but didn't show up. The owners ran the AGM, voted him off and voted themselves onto the board. The developer kicked up a stink, ran a media campaign against them, dragged them to court and lost. He had a vote and failed to use it.

Mental Mickey

Anyone know what the management fees(if any?)are for St Edmunds in Liffey Valley?

LawnMower Man

Hi,

I own an apartment in a development of 30 odd apartments where the developer has never handed over the common areas or the management company to the owners of the apartments.

These apartments were built back in the early 90s in Dublin.

A few legal attempts have been made in the past to sort this out to no avail.

Now another effort has been made by the apartment owners to oust the developer as a director so we can appoint our own , we were going to convene an EGM but have been told by our solictor that in the memorandum of association of the company only paid up members have the right to vote.

So are we snookered altogether or is it possible to get around this?

Any advice appreciated!

jd

LawnMower Man wrote: »

Now another effort has been made by the apartment owners to oust the developer as a director so we can appoint our own , we were going to convene an EGM but have been told by our solictor that in the memorandum of association of the company only paid up members have the right to vote.

So are we snookered altogether or is it possible to get around this?

Any advice appreciated!

Have you paid your management fees?

LawnMower Man

No apartment owner has paid him any fees in years due to the state of the place. Most paid for one or two years then stopped due to no maintenence being carried out and due to the common areas not being handed over plus a load of other reasons.

What I would like to know is can we convene an EGM and vote the Developer out as a director using a special resolution ?

Looking on the OECDs website it says:
“It is common in some jurisdictions to suffer a loss of voting rights in the owners’
management company as a result of a failure to pay the service charges. This
measure is triggered as a result of default on payment after a specified time. On
the one hand, this appears to be a reasonably proportionate solution. A key
function of the owners’ management company is, after all, to manage the
building through the control and expenditure of the service charge and the
building investment fund. It could be argued, however, that by buying property in
a multi-unit development, the unit owner automatically buys into a range of
rights and responsibilities, the nature of which would justify a fine or a restriction
on rights in the event of non-payment of the contributions. In any case, such a
restriction generally applies only to regular voting and not votes which require a
special resolution.
On the other hand however, loss of control over maintenance and upkeep of a
unit owner’s portion of freehold could be regarded as an unwarranted
curtailment of the constitutional right to private property. As a result, the
Commission considers that denial of voting rights is not a suitable remedial
device.”

connundrum

Without meaning to sound silly, can you vote at an AGM or EGM where you have not paid your fees?

That might be worth looking into.

I assume that if no one has paid their fees then it might be different to one owner out of 30 who hasn't paid but is still looking for a vote.

The_Conductor

connundrum wrote: »

Without meaning to sound silly, can you vote at an AGM or EGM where you have not paid your fees?

That might be worth looking into.

I assume that if no one has paid their fees then it might be different to one owner out of 30 who hasn't paid but is still looking for a vote.

No you cant.
1. You must have a quorum to hold a valid AGM or EGM (the constitution of which will be specified in the Articles of Association).
2. Only paid up members of the Management Company can vote.

This is highly likely to be a more and more common problem going forwards.

LawnMower Man

Well if we cannot vote him out and no one wants to pay him for the last 15 years of hell what do we do ?

I actually tried to approach them two years ago as I was willing to carry out repairs myself and add access control erc with what I owed them, but I did not even get a reply from letters or phone calls etc.

No one wants to pay the management money and see it go down his pocket with no maintenence being carried out or common areas transferred etc.

I mean there has been a couple of cases over the years were he has pocketed the money from the block insurance without giving a penny to the apartment owner.

markpb

LawnMower Man wrote: »

I mean there has been a couple of cases over the years were he has pocketed the money from the block insurance without giving a penny to the apartment owner.

If you mean he kept payouts from the block insurance policy that were meant for owners, unfortunately that's perfectly normal. Most management companies will do that when the owner has service charges outstanding.

How much money is he looking for from each unit? Is he demanding the full balance over the last 15 years?

LawnMower Man

Well some apartment owners owe money since the start.
There is no way on earth he is going to get a penny from any of them.

jd

LawnMower Man wrote: »

Well some apartment owners owe money since the start.
There is no way on earth he is going to get a penny from any of them.

They may have problems selling their apartments.

The_Conductor

jd wrote: »

They may have problems selling their apartments.

Make that- the Management Company may refuse to approve the reassignment of their leases

ciaran76

Have a management company ever taken the owners to court and won?

Paulw

Yes, they have. I must dig out the actual case law, but according to our solicitor, it's been done many times.

Our management company are currently in the process of taking those with outstanding fees to court. Just waiting on court dates now.

ciaran76

Thanks Paulw. Would like to see that as about 25% of owners in our place have not said for 3 years and no court cases seen to be taken or our agent is saying its a long process.

Paulw

It is a long process (ours has been going now about 8 months). But, it will be worth it in the end - recover the management fees, and they will have to pay legal costs too (District Court).

We don't have that many, but they are in for a shock when we do serve them with the papers, with court dates. They have plenty of time to pay up. Not a single one has claimed that they can't afford to pay, and in fact, none are resident - they are renting out their units.

markpb

ciaran76 wrote: »

Have a management company ever taken the owners to court and won?

My estate has been granted several installment orders by the courts and, in extreme cases, the sheriff has been sent out to remove and sell personal belongings. In one instance the judge issued a bench warrant against an owner who was directed to pay by the court and failed to do so. He avoided jail by writing a cheque to the company while the gardai were at his door.

ciaran76

So our agents shouldnt really be taking up to 3 years to collect these fees?

I dont see what they have to lose by not chasing these people down?

markpb

ciaran76 wrote: »

So our agents shouldnt really be taking up to 3 years to collect these fees? I dont see what they have to lose by not chasing these people down?

A lot of managing agents don't want to bother. They'll do the bare minimum, write a few letters and possibly pass the file to a debt collection agency. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but they don't care.

Others do care but the judicial system frustrates them. It can take a long time to send sufficient warnings, find the owner to serve the summons on them and bring them to court only for the judge to file an installment order which they can ignore for a year before you can bring them back to court again. Sometimes the judge will order in the sheriff but the sheriff will refuse to collect if he thinks they are a hardship case.

ciaran76

markpb wrote: »

A lot of managing agents don't want to bother. They'll do the bare minimum, write a few letters and possibly pass the file to a debt collection agency. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but they don't care.

Others do care but the judicial system frustrates them. It can take a long time to send sufficient warnings, find the owner to serve the summons on them and bring them to court only for the judge to file an installment order which they can ignore for a year before you can bring them back to court again. Sometimes the judge will order in the sheriff but the sheriff will refuse to collect if he thinks they are a hardship case.

That seems to be what is happening in our case I feel. Lots of excuses really which is getting annoying. Must push harder on this with them as they got a debt collector in byt according to the agents no one has been brought to court yet or no sign of any upcoming case's either.


We have our AGM in 2 weeks so should bring it up again there.

MrAbc

Just an aside folks: this is an amazing thread to me. A real eye-opener. Cheers for all the info and insight.

DaDa

Has anyone seen any reduction in management company fees this year (2009)? With the economic situation and many things having to come down in price, I'm wondering should management fees come down, and I'm sure they won't come down unless landlords push it?

markpb

DaDa wrote: »

Has anyone seen any reduction in management company fees this year (2009)? With the economic situation and many things having to come down in price, I'm wondering should management fees come down, and I'm sure they won't come down unless landlords push it?

In my estate, our budget runs October to October so we haven't started preparing a new one yet. One of our contractors (our managing agent) promised a price reduction without being asked but wouldn't say what it was. Instead they said they would refund us based on any negative CPI recorded during the year. Another company (our waste disposal) reduced their prices when we asked them too. The others will be tendered and it looks like there will be some small reductions but nothing major.

On the other hand, I see now as the perfect time to do big projects such as painting the interiors while things are cheap. Painters are falling over themselves to reduce their prices, I assume other tradesmen are the same.

Milk & Honey

Paulw wrote: »

It is a long process (ours has been going now about 8 months). But, it will be worth it in the end - recover the management fees, and they will have to pay legal costs too (District Court).

We don't have that many, but they are in for a shock when we do serve them with the papers, with court dates. They have plenty of time to pay up. Not a single one has claimed that they can't afford to pay, and in fact, none are resident - they are renting out their units.

If the Court accepts jurisdiction.

Residential Tenancies Act 2004 .

182.—(1) On and from the commencement of Part 6, proceedings may not be instituted in any court in respect of a dispute that may be referred to the Board for resolution under that Part unless one or more of the following reliefs is being claimed in the proceedings—


(a) damages of an amount of more than €20,000,


(b) recovery of arrears of rent or other charges, or both, due under a tenancy of an amount, or an aggregate amount, of more than €60,000 or such lesser amount as would be applicable in the circumstances concerned by virtue of section 115 (3)(b) or (c)(ii).


(2) In this section “dispute” has the same meaning as it has in Part 6.

markpb

We've never had a problem getting a court to accept it. I know you're trying to prove a loin here about management companies being landlords but you're riding solo on this one, the legal system doesn't agree with you.

Even if you're right and part of the service charge is rent, the ODCE clearly state that the service charge is part payment of the running costs of the company.